Is there a submod which makes all units more endurant?

[Ichon]

Even byzantine and norman cavalry should not wipe out infantry units twice their size on impact, when the infantry is braced. While i agree that cavalry should rule the battlefield, in SS infantry is rendered near useless early on. Infantry should suffer decent (but not crippling) casualties by a charge by early knights, and be able to hold their ground to an extent. And the knights, when using their swords, should not be able to stay among spearmen and destroy them uncontested (which is what happens now.) if the infantry are unprofessional, (like spear militia) they should rout, cuz a charging horse is scary as hell. if they are professionals, they should be able to stand their ground for a time before the inevitable rout.

What are you calling professionals? Because early mercenary spearmen do quite well unless taken a full charge when they aren't braced or in good formation. They will still lose to most cavalry though because even if they take 1/3 losses on the charge, then in the melee they kill 1/2 the cavalry but lose another 1/3 and rout leaving cavalry having defeated a unit 3 times size with only 1/2 losses.

As for Norman cavalry or Byzantines I made an exception for those because we actually have reports and witnesses from some of the battles that talk about a relative handful of Normans defeating 10x their numbers in a charge and often it wasn't just infantry but other heavy cavalries defeated. Byzantine charge is strong but not as powerful as others but they kill huge in melee after with very few losses more than offsetting slightly weaker charge which seems about historically how it occurred at least when the Byz were able to field sufficiently trained, motivated, and equipped heavy cavalry which much past 1100 they were never able to do historically and instead relied on mercenaries.

Due to the game mechanics whether the infantry rout or are killed in the charge has little difference except to the amount of losses the cavalry takes. Right now if an infantry unit takes a charge and fights alone vs most heavy cavalry they will lose and barely hurt to 1/2 hurt the attacking cavalry. If they get some help from another infantry unit though the attacking cavalry can often be driven off with 3/4 losses and neither infantry routed.

Newest RC which PB will release when he has time reduces charge of early cavalry. I agree with you that a good cavalry charge basically evaporating 90% of an infantry unit in 1 second of charge contact is bs. However- even if reduce it so full charge only kills 30% on contact the cavalry still probably going to rout the infantry if the infantry doesn't get help. Just with a few more losses to the cavalry. So what I am saying is yes some things are a bit unbalanced but making them better balanced doesn't mean tactics can or should be ignored.

Numbers alone don't make much difference. Since I've read lately alot of posts on TWC talking about rioters I'll use that as an example- there are often only 1 riot police per 10 in the crowd yet the riot police almost always succeed in dispersing the crowd. Yes equipment makes a difference but the biggest difference is in training and leadership. So having a group of knights riding warhorses trained since childhood to fight making a bunch of men who only started training to fight as adults(assuming professionals here) that don't have equal equipment, training, or leadership is not so amazing. I think the motivation of both groups would be equally strong but infantry need to cooperate to survive and thus discipline and leadership need to be actually stronger than an equivalent cavalry unit which once the charge is completed don't have the same loss of initiative breaking formation to ride down individual or small groups of infantry which stopped acting as a cohesive unit.

[Asterix]

well put.
as for your last point-tactics are useless if cavalry charges are wiping out entire units, the battle just goes to whoever can get more cavalry. I've tweaked numbers in the EDU and have made some improvements, namely:
major cuts to cav attack
small increases in cav defense
small increases in early archer attack and defense
morale cuts for most elite units, while small bonuses for militia and fodder
small bonuses to militia defense and attack and morale, so they can better hold their ground (for a couple more seconds)

[Ichon]

well put.
as for your last point-tactics are useless if cavalry charges are wiping out entire units, the battle just goes to whoever can get more cavalry.

Well as much as I appreciate what you are saying I completely disagree with this. As the attacker in most situations not siege assault, cavalry does make it easier but doesn't guarantee victory if you charge in and get surrounded or turn back to massed crossbow volley. So even then tactics make some difference but the options do narrow so there are less things to consider.

Defending against attacking cavalry is more difficult- the biggest losses I suffer are usually versus AI armies with half heavy cavalry, Mongol HA armies, and AP infantry with good morale(like Pope's Swiss Guards or any AP infantry led by a good general).

However- with the right army composition and terrain even with full stack armies where the AI has 10 or more heavy cavalry and you only have 4 or 5 with the right tactics its possible to win with 30% or less losses. Not sure what you expect more than that. Any spear infantry able to hold the line against cavalry charge reliably? That would make many battles against the AI a joke when it wastes its cavalry on your spear line and then you flank its spear line. Battle over and instead of losing just a couple units to charge you lose none.

First of all even if you didn't scout enemy army before the battle once you click to enter into a battle or are attacked the odds screen showing relative strengths and reinforcements etc comes up and tells you exactly what the enemy has in its army.

If you see lots of heavy cavalry then look for trees, rocks, elevation, etc to protect the center of your line or the flanks depending on your own unit composition.

Most professional spear infantry have some type of formation like schitrom or spearwall- not all do, but you really only need a couple to place ahead of the weakest points in your line. If you don't have any then a screen of skirmishers or cheap unit to slow a charge down or a counter charge by your own cavalry just to stop the enemy cavalry is called for.

If you just sit there with your infantry lined up and imagine they should withstand enemy who has taken the initiative then most of the time its a loss and your own fault. Do you imagine medieval battles were so easy? Cavalry as a screen or a threat to hold other heavy cavalry in check, terrain, and the death or capture of an enemy general were often decisive in medieval battles. Most of the early medieval historical battles where spear infantry held of enemy cavalry also had something else going like a rise in terrain, swampy ground, forest, ambush, etc. Later as pikes re-appeared along with crossbows and better discipline for infantry necessary for siege warfare cavalry started being only 1 arm of a military rather than always the hammer. But it was never because infantry just stood braced in a line waiting for a charge.

EDIT- Alot of the complaints I see about balance are from people who play mostly in the early eras when cavalry is more dominant. If you play into the 1400s or even 1300s infantry gets much better and cavalry is more easily countered. However that doesn't mean its impossible to counter heavy cavalry earlier, you just have to make do with a few less options. When this latest RC comes out it will be a tiny bit easier but still you need to have solid grasp of tactics because cavalry are dangerous to unprepared infantry. Pretty much a truism in warfare since cavalry came unto the battlefield and true today when modern cavalry is tanks and helicopters.

[ziserman]

I completely agree with you Ichon that is how I counter heavy cavalry as well. Hills, forests, infantry still to absorb the charge and/or countercharge with heavy cavalry and pull back immediately.

In early campaigns I'd like to add skirmishers are very valuable in loose formation to absorb a charge. Lots of arrow volleys also are quite damaging to enemy HC units (any western/northern cav especially), especially with an attack greater than 1. And of course javelins, the absolute counterweapon to HC. 2H axes or even regular axes to flank/surround after the charge hits also do amazing work. And macemen

I have a question though - using heavily armoured cavalry, is it normal that a frontal charge is often more damaging that a rear charge? When the enemy units are moving forward the charge is absolutely breaking and even when they are still they are still closer to each other than when they are fighting. Is this normal?
Only with heavily armoured cavalry have I noticed this.

[Asterix]

true. thanks for those tips-i never really pay much attention to terrain (considering most of the time i auto-resolve.) and ofc, in sieges cavalry are near useless, especially if you're an exploit user like me and put stakes in front of gates. i do check the enemy's army, and if i see a lot of cavalry i get very nervous.

[Ichon]

I have a question though - using heavily armoured cavalry, is it normal that a frontal charge is often more damaging that a rear charge? When the enemy units are moving forward the charge is absolutely breaking and even when they are still they are still closer to each other than when they are fighting. Is this normal?
Only with heavily armoured cavalry have I noticed this.

Well I think it depends on what type of charge it is. I think due to pathfinding cavalry running into a large infantry unit that is running in the same direction as the cavalry the results are weird. Usually both stop and sort of mill around before even much of a melee starts. However if you are on faster cavalry overtaking slower cavalry which is running away you can completely run over the entire unit and take 0 losses if it doesn't stop running. Its rare as AI will usually stop and fight but I've run over a few HA or slow Byzantine cavalry that way and had it happen to my own cavalry by AI many times.

I see it more as the difference between a lance charge and a charge into a group of experienced skirmishers. Basically many militia are trained to hold and support the shieldmate etc since their main strength comes from staying together. Especially in melee vs other infantry that makes a difference. When taking a lance charge and their spears are too short to ward off the enemy heavy cavalry it makes them a target.

However if its a group of skirmishers trained to fight individually and are light, fast and very aggressive its a different story. So a group of skirmishers don't bunch up for a charge like some spear militia might- they would dodge and throw things at cavalry or try and pull the cavalry off or jump up behind the cavalry and stab them. Such things usually aren't possible for most men who aren't very fit and have some experience.

Catalans were mostly light infantry with little armor who famously stopped some heavy cavalry charges. In Ancient times skirmishers were more respected than in medieval eras where such tactics arose from poverty or being 'barbaric' and often deployed to slow charge of both infantry and cavalry. Usually such men were only available in large groups from regions where their livelihood was keeping them fit and used to fighting. (usually regions that did not favor cavalry; deep forest, mountains, swamps)and tradition of raiding and fighting cavalry of invaders was set.

So when I set some levy archers in loose formation and have them run away from the cavalry charge I just imagine its some young men dodging the cavalry and while they often lose 1/3 or more it does cause the cavalry to lose cohesion as they slow and try to melee. A charging cavalryman on a horse can only keep going with his lance aimed for so long. Eventually needs to drop the lance and pull a sword or stop and turn for another charge. Skirmishers were sort of an anti-cavalry for awhile but when cavalry get more armored and more numerous its difficult even for elite skirmishers to have much effect since they are usually limited in numbers themselves. Also skirmishers are less effective against massed unit of men advancing behind shields and in disciplined formation. Its not quite rock, paper, scissors as Age of Empire games and many others make out but somewhat true in the basics. Though in Age of Empires skirmishers are used against archers and light infantry to best effect and cavalry completely ignore them which in history was usually not the case. Skirmishers that weren't archers themselves usually only successful against archers in ambush. Not advancing in the open to attack them.

[ziserman]

I see. I never run away from a charge like this except when I'm really gonna lose the battle if I don't. It feels like such a huge exploit and I lose almost no troops if I keep running after the charge hits (not allow my skirmishers to stay and fight) while simultaneously attacking with infantry. It essentially makes the enemy HC useless.

Was it really possible in reality? Then it only requires a pause and any unit can best heavy cavalry...

Oh, and what about the heavy cavalry charging from the rear being less effective than the front?

[Ichon]

I see. I never run away from a charge like this except when I'm really gonna lose the battle if I don't. It feels like such a huge exploit and I lose almost no troops if I keep running after the charge hits (not allow my skirmishers to stay and fight) while simultaneously attacking with infantry. It essentially makes the enemy HC useless.

Was it really possible in reality? Then it only requires a pause and any unit can best heavy cavalry...

Oh, and what about the heavy cavalry charging from the rear being less effective than the front?

Well I only run away light infantry and missile units, not anything else- also it doesn't totally negate charge, just makes it less effective. If you would have lost 80% on charge and run away usually you'll still lose 30-50%. I am not sure what you mean about charge from the rear being less effective? I assumed you meant due to the running away. I haven't noticed anything less effective when the unit is standing still and charge in the rear. If anything usually they rout much more quickly. Especially other cavalry or AP/Pike infantry. Often the only safe place to charge is the rear of those units if you don't want to lose a general or lots of casualties.

[Nyarla]

best example for negating charge, would be AI archers or skirmishers running from cavalry charge when their own units ain't blocking right behind. though most of the time they start running too late sometimes u see them all run but 1 - 2 units lag behind those get hit by the charge, and the rest escapes while your cavalry is acting all confused. charge negated. u can easily copy that ai behavior but instead of continueing to run u countercharge instead.

another way to stop a charge is to move your own infantry unit just barly in the way of the charge. if u do it right 2 or 3 knights run into your infantry and the charge dies down since the cavalry changes their target to new unit.

and my all time favorite, put a byzantine flamethrower a bit in front of your own infantry and have them target the charging cavalry from the side, and they kill em just before he reaches your lines.

[Ichon]

Yeah there are alot of exploits due to pathfinding available. Some might not even be exploits really since a few spearmen engaging cavalry charging by might divert their charge or at least a few as often happens the rest of the unit charges on but hits much more weakly.

[Tomahawk]

I just tried changing the EDU myself, and after editing the stats of every single unit, the game began crashing upon start up, so that was a waste of time. I'm just gonna download the third age mod, since I enjoyed that mod the most until I started playing this mod. Atleast in that mod cavalry isn't as lethal as a machine gun squad, if I remember right.

[ZarBoneD]

Always back up files before changing ANYTHING!

I removed cannon towers from my game, first time I tried the game crashed on start up. So I restored the file with the back up and tried again, now it works. The problem can be as small as a spelling error, or a missing line.

Simple explanation why your General's Bodyguard is the Destroyer Incarnate, same with other Chivalric Knight and Heavy Cavalry.

Owning a Warhorse, Quality armor, and weapons is the equivalent of owning today a 4 or 5 bedroom house, on acre plot, Two cars, that's located in Southern California. These men Invested in warfare, lived it. Learned to Fight with swords from where they were 7 years old.

When a Stirrup-ed knight, wearing armor, with a heavy lance charged you, that lance is punching into your chest with over 7,500 pounds pf pressure. That's like 32 four door sedans driving into a pack of 200 Spearmen at 35 miles an hour. They are going to die. Throw in reverse and charge again.

The lowborn at the time were lucky to live through a battle if came down to actual engagement, only receiving training when they come of age (around 16), and most of the time had to supply their own equipment, professional units would have a bit better funding and equipment. A light spear, about five to six feet in length was as likely to break as it was to pierce the noble's armor, that's if they manage to get inside the tip of the lance, but then they are fighting trained killers with the finance and equipment to prove so.


Don't forget their horses were trained to fight as well, kicking, biting, and just straight up running people down. The best defense is counter charging cavalry with your own mounted units, then sending in your spear men.

[ziserman]

Atleast in that mod cavalry isn't as lethal as a machine gun squad, if I remember right.

Ichon's tactics was how they used to do it in reality to defeat heavy cavalry. If you still can't defeat them it's your own fault either using improper army composition or improper tactics inside the battle.

By the way it's tank squad

[bɑne]

What are those huge siegeengine-high enemies called again in TATW? Those that love to stomp through your regiment?

[Tomahawk]

What are those huge siegeengine-high enemies called again in TATW? Those that love to stomp through your regiment?

You mean those big elephant things? I think their called Mumakil, though I hardly think that's relevant to this topic

[Nyarla]

mumakil? i guess u mean those that trample a whole army, unless u shoot em with siege engines, without breaking a sweat. but they are supposed to do that, knights should rather go back to the stove and start knitting gloves or scarves.

[Asterix]

mumakil are EVIL.

[bɑne]

You mean those big elephant things? I think their called Mumakil, though I hardly think that's relevant to this topic

Ah thanks Your comment that there is no lethal cavalry in TATW reminded me of them and opened the topic up a bit imho I see no harm in comparing unit balancing between mods if someone wants to.