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Thread: Your basic tactics.

  1. #1
    mesor's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Your basic tactics.

    I figured id put something up for new players to go through to give them a basic guide to shogun total war battle tactics .
    Feel free to add your own id love to see how other peoples vary from my own.

    Im playing as Ikko Ikki at the moment my main army consists of 3 ronin katana 4 ronin samurai 4 ronin bowmen 2 monk naginata 2 monk bowmen 2 monk naginata cavalry 2 battlefield ninja squads and my general.
    Plus a 6 star ninja who always attacks removes the commander and opens gates before i go into battle.

    My basic tactic is split into 2 catagory's.

    Battle line.

    Which consists of 4 samurai in a line 2 and a half ranks thick with monk naginata covering the flanks at an angle from the samurai.
    Behind the samurai are the 3 katana when my frontline is hit they reinforce any weak points in the line.
    The 2 naginata cavalry sit in behind my naginata monks to prevent any enemy cavalry from flanking.
    Behind the katana are the 4 ronin bowmen who i always have fire flaming arrows in the opening volley to shake the enemy before they hit my line to weaken there charge.
    The 2 monk bowmen sit in behind my naginata cavalry and do the same followed by whistling arrows.
    At that point i focus my missile fire on enemy generals.
    My own general sits behind the archers and my 2 ninja stay with him to protect him or later in i send them up the middle to flash the enemy line for a couple seconds so mine can brake it entirely.
    After that its just a simple case of moving katana around to bolster any weakpoints and using my cavalry to drive the enemy off and kill as many as i can when they brake.
    Where possible do this on high ground to tire the enemy out and to remove there charge bonus.

    The second is ambush formation.

    Which is very simple.

    Cavalry directly infront 2 samurai 1 monk naginata and 2 ronin bowman on each side.
    And the 2 monk bowmen the 2 ninja and the 3 katana block the back the moment my men are formed up its a simple blitz i rush them on all sides and force them into 1 big cluster surrounded by my men then just watch my archers massacare them.
    I am the shadow, and the smoke in your eyes I am the ghost, that hides in the night.

    We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France,
    we shall fight on the seas and oceans,
    we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be,
    we shall fight on the beaches,
    we shall fight on the landing grounds,
    we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
    we shall fight in the hills;
    we shall never surrender.

    " The dark is generous.
    Its first gift is concealment: our true faces lie in the dark beneath our skins, our true hearts remain shadowed deeper still. But the greatest concealment lies not in protecting our secret truths, but in hiding from the truths of others.
    The dark protects us from what we dare not know.
    Its second gift is comforting illusion: the ease of gentle dreams in night’s embrace, the beauty that imagination brings to what would repel in the day’s harsh light. But the greatest of its comforts is the illusion that dark is temporary: that every night brings a new day. Because it’s the day that is temporary.
    Day is the illusion.
    Its third gift is the light itself: as days are defined by the nights that divide them, as stars are defined by the infinite black through which they wheel, the dark embraces the light, and brings it forth from the center of its own self.
    With each victory of the light, it is the dark that wins.


    The dark is generous, and it is patient.
    It is the dark that seeds cruelty into justice, that drips contempt into compassion, that poisons love with grains of doubt.
    The dark can be patient, because the slightest drop of rain will cause those seeds to sprout.
    The rain will come, and the seeds will sprout, for the dark is the soil in which they grow, and it is the clouds above them, and it waits behind the star that gives them light.
    The dark’s patience is infinite.
    Eventually, even stars burn out.


    The dark is generous, and it is patient, and it always wins.
    It always wins because it is everywhere.
    It is in the wood that burns in your hearth, and in the kettle on the fire; it is under your chair and under your table and under the sheets on your bed. Walk in the midday sun, and the dark is with you, attached to the soles of your feet.
    The brightest light casts the darkest shadow.


    The dark is generous and it is patient and it always wins – but in the heart of its strength lies its weakness: one lone candle is enough to hold it back.
    Love is more than a candle.
    Love can ignite the stars."



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    I am going to end it!

  2. #2
    Jom's Avatar A Place of Greater Safety
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    Moved to Gameplay and Strategy Discussion.


    "For what it’s worth: it’s never too late to be whoever you want to be. I hope you live a life you’re proud of, and if you find that you’re not, I hope you have the strength to start all over again."
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  3. #3
    synagas's Avatar Ashigaru
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    Mine is to have a very well rounded army. Granted I use quite a bit of cavalry since I am playing as Takeda (my yari cavalry have a 44+ charge bonus...) but overall my armies stay the same regardless of clan with just a little emphasis on whatever that clan has as strength.

    1 General
    3 Yari Cavalry
    2 Katana Cavalry
    2 Katana Samurai
    2 Yari Ash
    1 Naginata Samurai
    1 Yari Samurai
    5 Bow Ash
    2 Mangonels
    1 Extra General as Reinforcement or else another yari cavalry

    The intent here is simply and very effective. I have my archers up front, spread wide with my YA behind them in the middle, Yari Sam on the right and Naginata Sam on the left. Far flank (with least trees) I have my Yari Cavalry, and on the opposite flank I have my Katana Cavalry. Behind my infantry I have my Mangonels and behind that I have my general. He will go in front if he does not have stand and fight, otherwise behind and stand and fight right away to increase his area. I don't worry about being shot since two layers of units in front and mangonels have no FF for units at their base. The katana samurai have one on either side of my samurai flanks to wrap around and kill whoever charges, but able to move in and be protected my spear samurai if attacked by cavalry.

    When battle starts, I use the mangonels and rain havoc on the advancing army, each one normally getting between 50-100 kills (using DM so not impressive really at 500 YA unit size... lol) trying to hit their sword infantry and general whenever I can, or hit bunched together units for greater kills. My yari cavalry will sweep up their flanks and often draw out one YA or similar spear and archers, so I break them apart, have spears chase one unit and kill archers before hitting spears in the back with great charge bonus to break them quickly and with min losses. Otherwise, I use them to draw units if the enemy won't move (had this happen on D and O, but they work well at pulling), while my katana cavalry stay on my flank and only move up a bit. I let my range fire a few rounds on the enemy, the second round fire arrows (first often have the fewest enemy in range, so second is more deadly to me) and when the enemy gets close they move back while infantry line moves forward. My mangonels continue to always fire, even when close combat starts, hitting right behind the enemy so they take more damage and moral hits than my guys do. With armies engaged, my cavalry smash in from flanks and rear, often killing archers for a rout before hitting the infantry, breaking down moral. I keep one yari cavalry ready to chase into generals since they have 25 (I think) bonus verse cavalry, and 44 charge bonus making them deadly on the charge to cavalry. Pull back and recharge often to slaughter the enemy general and cause another moral hit.

    About this time, the enemy starts to rout, and my general gets back onto his horses to chase down fleeing targets. When I get the continue or end, I continue, have my archers stop firing and run everyone down with all my cavalry. Typically, I destroy all armies out right so they cannot heal as they are all dead. My cavalry units, especially yari, typically get around 1k-1.5k kills a fight (remember, ultra unit size with YA at 500, and BA at 360). My general never fights unless absolutely needed, used for moral and fear if high enough ranks. My reinforcing general will fight (if not a prime general, they all go down combat branch and so can pretty much never die and cause HUGE damage especially on charges and such). Wish I could keep him in the main stack for extra bonuses from the general, but if I do I get no ranks and no better at fighting, so I don't.

    This strategy uses only a minimal amount of micromanaging:
    For the mangonels to hit units I move their shots in front to where they are going
    Yari Cavalry to hit, pull back and hit again. Greatest amount of MM of all since I can destroy 3-7 full units before the enemy ever gets to me though I will only have a few dozen left per unit. No biggie, they typically have high, high ranks anways.
    Bows to use fire arrows and move back when to close
    Infantry move forward when about to engage
    Katana cavalry to hit unit rears and run away when chased by spears
    All my cavalry when the enemy routs

    I also figured out why you cannot retrain a unit. You could make God units that way. Think about it, train a Yari Cavalry in my main city with legendary stables and maxed out stables for huge charge bonuses. Retrain them for great moral in a holy site city. Move to an armorer and encampment for +5 armor and to a blacksmith and encampment for +6 attack. If I could retrain like this, my entire army would be 1 general, 2 mangonels (just for fun and sieges) 2 yari samurai and 15 yari cavalry who could destroy anything with maneuverability, high armor and attack. Just be overpowered. Already they never break even when going down to 20 men from a full 160 at rank 6. Add in all the extra moral, armor and attack, they would just never die. Be like MW2 heavy cavalry that way.

    Anyways, just my two cents. Hope it wasn't too long so no one reads it XD.

  4. #4
    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    is it possible to ask you guys to send a pic or 2 of your setup for us newbies

  5. #5
    Shashu
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by merak View Post
    is it possible to ask you guys to send a pic or 2 of your setup for us newbies
    +1

  6. #6
    synagas's Avatar Ashigaru
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    As asked for, I have attached some pictures. This is a secondary army so not quite the same make up, but over all, you can see that the make up is very consistent and solid. This is all one battle but broken down to show the tactics a bit.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Initial layout as described in my earlier post. I have one extra YA, no yari samurai, one less archer and an extra general. Artillery fires while they march forward, trying to damage as many units as possible.




    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    As you can see, my yari cavalry are hitting a flank. They ended up slaughtering two units of YA and two BA before the battle really started. Once battle started they killed another YA and the general.




    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    A rain of fire. While I wish to direct my archer shots, I cannot risk that they move as they always do when you target someone. So I let them free shoot and do high damage to a couple units to break moral. Right after this my archers moved up the hill and my melee down to charge. Artillery still fires right behind all their units. These will hit archers a lot and sometimes the back of their melee for a huge moral drop.




    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    As you can see, battle is won and I am chasing down tons of units. Broke them by moral :-). Archers and art stop firing to limit FF.




    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The battle results. Mostly cause my archers still fire while I am in melee, and a few art shots hit me.



  7. #7
    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    thank you for this i will start using it when i have the chance to play next time.

  8. #8
    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    I get Takeda and I don't go into balanced fights until I got my bajutsu dojo to the highest level.
    My setup is like this on Takeda only.
    2 generals
    6 yari cavalry
    10 katana cavalry
    2 great guard
    I know the build seems lame but it works on any battleground as long as you can flank your enemies with the yari.
    I mostly split them in two (1 general to each group) then I send in my katana cavalries on front and I flank them with yari cavalries.
    One of the groups hold the enemies main line of infantry and the other group goes behind to kill archers and siege units.
    Great guards go against any cavalry and take them down or hunt down their general.
    As the front lines of the enemy hold their general is dead in 30 seconds into combat and their archers are all scattered by one minute into combat.
    When that happens I just take all of them and charge on the rest of the infantry/cavalry.
    (Yeah I like horses )

  9. #9
    Civilopedian's Avatar Kirā
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyIvanTR View Post
    I get Takeda and I don't go into balanced fights until I got my bajutsu dojo to the highest level.
    My setup is like this on Takeda only.
    2 generals
    6 yari cavalry
    10 katana cavalry
    2 great guard
    I know the build seems lame but it works on any battleground as long as you can flank your enemies with the yari.
    I mostly split them in two (1 general to each group) then I send in my katana cavalries on front and I flank them with yari cavalries.
    One of the groups hold the enemies main line of infantry and the other group goes behind to kill archers and siege units.
    Great guards go against any cavalry and take them down or hunt down their general.
    As the front lines of the enemy hold their general is dead in 30 seconds into combat and their archers are all scattered by one minute into combat.
    When that happens I just take all of them and charge on the rest of the infantry/cavalry.
    (Yeah I like horses )
    The AI tends to heavily recruit YA, how can horses stand up against pointy sticks?

  10. #10
    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Civilopedian View Post
    The AI tends to heavily recruit YA, how can horses stand up against pointy sticks?
    They tend to recruit yari ashigaru. Even yari samurai can be overwhelmed and broken if you can hunt down the general.

  11. #11
    synagas's Avatar Ashigaru
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Civilopedian View Post
    The AI tends to heavily recruit YA, how can horses stand up against pointy sticks?
    Its not that bad actually. Its a two point way. If you can kill the general first, than their moral is low and a solid strike kills them. Otherwise, hit them from the flank with one unit followed by a second unit within 1 second (so two charges within 4 seconds for huge moral hit) often causes them to waver and break shortly. Even with the general alive this works. Throw a third Yari Cavalry in and they almost always break, though I end up losing 25-50% of each Yari Cavalry unit per battle, small cost for multiple YA and YS units killed.

    Side note, my Yari Cavalry had a 44 charge bonus and so they dealt massive damage on the charge to kill many Soldiers easily. If they are not that well upgraded, they don't do as well, but a solid charge with two units, retreat with one to recharge and retreat second to recharge as well works wonders.
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  12. #12
    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Civilopedian View Post
    The AI tends to heavily recruit YA, how can horses stand up against pointy sticks?
    That's where I find Takeda Katana Cavalry shine; ride them quickly behind the enemy lines, dismount them and charge in. My chevron 6 katana cavalry units have Melee attack whopping 25, plus he retains his charging bonuses even when dismounted! They might even be superior to normal katana infantry with their higher attack and armour, if weren't for their smaller unit size.

    On another note, I found horse archers with Swooping Crane incredibly useful in soaking up enemy archer fire when attacking in siege. My two units of horse archers kept 4 enemy archer units busy while my general and 2 Katana Cavalry units dismounted, burnt the gate and stormed in! It was marvelous sight, my general and 2 dismounted katana cavalry cut through 4 units of Yari Garrison and a samurai retainer unit, while the fort was burning around them! Actually the smaller unit size was to my advantage in tight courtyard.


    ps.this is on latest Darthmod and very hard-hard.

  13. #13
    Civilopedian's Avatar Kirā
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    I forgot about dismount. Yari Cav dismounted vs Yari Ashigaru?

  14. #14
    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Civilopedian View Post
    I forgot about dismount. Yari Cav dismounted vs Yari Ashigaru?
    Yari cavalry would win in my opinion but I didn't try it. (Yari cavalry has 4 armor and Yari ashigaru has 4 attack so their backstabs would become almost 0 and with the yari cavalry's 1 defense it is also almost 0 from the front.)

  15. #15
    Emperor of The Great Unknown's Avatar Baitai kihei
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyIvanTR View Post
    Yari cavalry would win in my opinion but I didn't try it. (Yari cavalry has 4 armor and Yari ashigaru has 4 attack so their backstabs would become almost 0 and with the yari cavalry's 1 defense it is also almost 0 from the front.)
    lol

    your think M2TW system. First off ever since empire there has been so such animation as backstab!

    Second armor works differently since empire, armor seems to only have an effect on projectiles.
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  16. #16
    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor of The Great Unknown View Post
    lol

    your think M2TW system. First off ever since empire there has been so such animation as backstab!

    Second armor works differently since empire, armor seems to only have an effect on projectiles.
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=454271

    Go to the 10th post which proves armor is important even if you're fighting head-to-head in melee and it is much more important if you're surrounded / being attacked from behind.

    Oh and when I go with Takeda's Katana Cavalry with the armor upgrades (totaling 7+5=12) they can finish off a Yari Ashigaru unit with no problem and they lose less than half of their men when their general is present. (less than 1/3 if they're experienced | less than 1/4 if they don't have their general nearby | less than 1/10 if their general is dead.) (Forgot to mention that this is on Zendarth mod. With no mod the katana cavalry don't stand a chance against yari ashigaru thanks to their bonus vs. cavalry)
    Last edited by CrazyIvanTR; July 13, 2011 at 07:26 PM.

  17. #17
    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Civilopedian View Post
    I forgot about dismount. Yari Cav dismounted vs Yari Ashigaru?
    Tried it just now and they didn't win. YA had 35/50 units at the end and my YC had 5/20 units right before they ran away. It seemed that their charge bonus didn't work because YA killed 4 of my units and my YC killed 5 of them right after they charged at each other.

  18. #18
    crzyrndm's Avatar Senshi
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    @^^
    Numbers and the massive charge/attack penalty for being dismounted
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  19. #19
    Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Civilopedian View Post
    I forgot about dismount. Yari Cav dismounted vs Yari Ashigaru?
    As far as i remember cavalry keeps their penalty vs spears when dismounted unless they fixed it in the last patch or you got a mod to correct it.

    Last time i tested dismounted katana cavalry vs half beaten yari ashigaru, the ashigaru won all the fights >.>


    as for "horses vs pointy sticks" i did a full katana cavalry stacked army (no general, silver armor/weapon, bonus morale) against a mixed ronin/ashigaru army with mostly spears/katana troops and the cavalry won :x and yes they had a general, Rank 1 general but a general. (then again i also won with a full rank 5 bronze weapon kisho ninja army vs a mostly ashigaru/few ronin army :x)

    Gonna experiement some more in my next campaign ^^

    oh that above was as Oda, no takeda bonuses.

  20. #20
    daniu's Avatar 比你才牛
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    Default Re: Your basic tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by zhiphius View Post
    As far as i remember cavalry keeps their penalty vs spears when dismounted unless they fixed it in the last patch or you got a mod to correct it.

    Last time i tested dismounted katana cavalry vs half beaten yari ashigaru, the ashigaru won all the fights
    The bonus vs cav has never wrongly counted against dismounted, you must have done something wrong in your test.
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