[Suggestion] muslim weaponry and military structure in future BC versions

**molashkre** · November 28, 2011, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by matmohair1

this one is from a Russian encyclopedia & is illustrated by Dr M.Gorelik

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/6...ee4e41859a.jpg

this is an illustration by Igor Dzis from a book about the Battle of Kulikovo

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5663/picture16m.png

Thanks mate

**Ichon** · November 29, 2011, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by matmohair1

this is an illustration by Igor Dzis from a book about the Battle of Kulikovo

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5663/picture16m.png

This one is probably the best illustration I'd guess...

Nice to see this thread is still going with some new contributions.

**ArmoredCore** · September 24, 2013, 10:41 PM

The funny part about all of this is that most of the armor seen in the West during the crusades originated in the East to begin with, primarily with the "Aryan" persians and Caucasian Armenians. From there, it developed further in contact with Central Asia and East Asia along the silk road, as most famously seen on the Soghdians and Khwarazem fortress paintings that still survive, which look strongly European like even though they are 100s of years prior to any European knight. Read UNESCO's history of Central Asia for some images or Bilderatlas zur Kunst und Kulturgeschichte Mittel-Asiens for some good photos.

For example wearing felt head caps (qalansuwa) was a Muslim tradition and felt headresses were quite often worn to war among the Persians and Egyptians. Wearing crenellated crowns over felt hads of all sorts and fancy animal headed helmets of sorts even with wings was even common in Sassanid and Parthian Persia.

But look at the uniform of the crusaders and you will see the influence from Africa and the East. Flowing robes with chain mail underneath: Primarily North African and Arabian as to this day Arabians still wear such garments and their swords.... (looking quite like jedis even). Quilted armor over and under chain mail: another African and Eastern import. African cavalry in West Africa quite often wore quilted armor and many of their cavalry traditions trace back to nilotic armor traditions moving west through Chad (an old dried up part of the nile extends into chad and is an old migration route from east to west). While on the mention of Nilotic Cavalry, the form fitting cup or egg helmet goes back to the ancient Egyptians and Nubians along the Nile and images from Egypt show horse barding, fancy armor and colorful plumes on not only the Egyptians (especially during and after rameses, but on the foreigners as well). And then you have the fancy tunics of the Egyptians known especially from the Ramessid period onward were royalty and dieties are shown wearing scale corselets with elaborately decorated belts. You also had a very early version of the Kite shield along the Nile as well as some of the oldest fortresses or castles anywhere (with glacis walls, portholes, bastions, moats and so forth. Then you got the fancy colored overcoats which are nothing more than Eastern Kaftans..... Painted helms and faceplates.... old as the hills in the the Steppes, Persia and Egypt as well..... So if you were to actually look at all the forces in the area between Italy and modern Uzbhekistan you would have seen forces with quite similar defeses. Not to mention the Islamic forces wrapping their turbans around their helms which became crusader fashion..... Heck most of the fashion of the Medieval period originated in the East.

**DevrimJan** · September 25, 2013, 06:08 AM

Could you post some pictures or links?

**Emperor Hantscher** · September 25, 2013, 06:00 PM

@ArmoredCore

Alot of it had to do with the climate. The desert sun is extremely hot, so turbans or just plain cloth were wrapped around the metal helmet as to prevent it from heating up to ridiculous temperatures. You won't see men with a cloth wrapped around their head in the Wars of Scottish Independence. Same with wearing fabric over top of chainmail, even farther up north wearing chainmail over bare skin in the midday sun is a bad idea. Of course you could argue that because civilization in general started in Egypt, the Levant and Mesopotamia, we owe everything we have ever had or ever have done to "The East".

Also the Crusaders were not killing every living Saracen, they had to subjugate and rule them so as a result they may have adopted certain aspects of their culture, though nothing that would offend the Lord, as to not completely alienate themselves from those they meant to rule. So dressing in garb familiar to the Saracens might have been enough to win over some of the locals or at least not completely offend them.

**ArmoredCore** · September 25, 2013, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Emperor Hantscher

@ArmoredCore

Alot of it had to do with the climate. The desert sun is extremely hot, so turbans or just plain cloth were wrapped around the metal helmet as to prevent it from heating up to ridiculous temperatures. You won't see men with a cloth wrapped around their head in the Wars of Scottish Independence. Same with wearing fabric over top of chainmail, even farther up north wearing chainmail over bare skin in the midday sun is a bad idea. Of course you could argue that because civilization in general started in Egypt, the Levant and Mesopotamia, we owe everything we have ever had or ever have done to "The East".

Also the Crusaders were not killing every living Saracen, they had to subjugate and rule them so as a result they may have adopted certain aspects of their culture, though nothing that would offend the Lord, as to not completely alienate themselves from those they meant to rule. So dressing in garb familiar to the Saracens might have been enough to win over some of the locals or at least not completely offend them.

I just noticed that in a lot of the artwork the turban wrapped around the helm is often depicted as something unique to European Knights, even though many texts describe it as something inherited from the Muslims. Not to mention the jupon or jubba which revers to any number of overgarments worn by muslims, but actually derive from far older cultures.

The looms of Syria and Spain, of which sixteen thousand were at work in Seville alone, and where a hundred and thirty thousand silk-workers were employed at Cordova, wove the materials for the garments of nobles and the sacramental vest- ments of Christian prelates ; and it was not an uncommon spectacle to see a bishop celebrating mass with an 'dyai of the Kuran elegantly embroidered on his chasuble. The women of Europe learnt to wear an Arab kamis (chemise) and jubba (jupe, jupon). The warriors of Christendom were eager to wield blades forged in Damascus, Almeria, or Toledo, and to ride in Cordovan saddles. The sugar-cane was introduced and Europeans first tasted confectioneries, sweetmeats and sorbets. By and by the manufactures of the East were introduced and imitated in Christian Europe. Silk-looms were estab- lished in Norman Sicily. Venice copied with the aid of native craftsmen the glassware of Antioch ; Lyons the damasks, Paris the ' tapis sarrasins,' and Rheims the linen of Syria. The rich dyes of the East were brought to Bruges, where they were - used to .prepare English wool for the market. The wares of Spain and Majorca led to the establishment of Italian factories for the manufacture of majolica. Sugar factories were transferred from Sicily to Italy and from Spain to the South of France.

"The Making Of Humanity"
http://archive.org/details/cu31924029765819

**hameem123** · September 30, 2013, 04:56 AM

i know this post is a long time ago but i would just like to say that most of the things he said are not from his knowledge but from the hate in his heart,if he thinks that his people or his race or religion is being oppressed then i am sad to say to him that Islam and Muslims are the worlds most oppressed and discriminated group of people as of today's generation,also i don't get the logic why he say that Crusader state is underpowered when actuality they have a very vast recruitment pool and most of their troops are heavy infantry as well as superbly heavy and hard hitting cavalry,the Crusader State have the most vast and complex recruitment pool and to add also that most of the Admins or perhaps none of them are Muslims and most important is the developers of this mod have for sure searched precise and proven historical accuracy into basing the armies of factions during this period as well as the equipment and troops they use and deploy.

**ArmoredCore** · February 22, 2014, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by DevrimJan

Could you post some pictures or links?

I don't have any pictures of my own but here are some links.
The main thing that I see lacking is that most of the Muslim forces of this era would have had very colorful attire.
But from movies like Kingdom of Heaven you get this notion that the Muslims were all dark somber and muted in color.
Now of course for the movie that was simply a design palette choice made by the creators, but it is totally fake.
The Muslims of the crusading era were the main "western" endpoint of the silk route and mostly from central Asia.
They would have been very well decked out in colorful caftans, silks and other kinds of embroidered and brocaded fabrics.

Some links and photos:

Seljuk art:

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/57.36.4

Note this costume presaging French and English costume that would come centuries later:
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/67.119

From wikipedia:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Painting showing obvious east Asian influences. Almost all Seljuk art is strongly East Asian in style:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

And keep in mind that these same Seljuks were the ones who defeated the Byzantines at the battle of Manzikert under Alp Arslan.

Unfortunately for them they quickly dissolved into petty factions and therefore, especially in the area of Jerusalem, relatively easy pickings for Crusaders.
But that doesn't mean that their dress was crude or their armies were lacking in any sort of armor tradition, since all aspect of horse warfare originated in Central Asia, the Steppes and the Iranian Plateau in the first place. As can be seen from the arrival of the heavy cavalry of the khwarezemians who inherited and maintained the heavy cavalry traditions of the Persians and Soghdians. The Seljuks also came from the same general areas of central asia but obviously had not maintained such a tradition of heavy cavalry. The areas of central Asia where these people came from was most likely modern Uzbhekistan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan.

Some notes on Central Asian textiles (part of what influenced the textile traditions of Medieval Europe via the Silk Road):

http://angelasancartier.net/central-...story-of-dress

http://www.susanmeller.com/books/silk-and-cotton/

Sassanian and Parthian Cataphract traditions:

big pic

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

A lot of these frescoes in this era often depict hybrid Indian/Central Asian War deities that are often depicted in very fancy mixed plate armor, quite similar to later European armor. Most of these are seen in books online like The UNESCO history of Central Asia.

Bilderatlas: http://dsr.nii.ac.jp/toyobunko/VIII-...r/0078.html.en

**MIKE GOLF** · February 22, 2014, 04:49 PM

If you have a good computer and monitor then when you fight battles on the battle map I think you may be surprised at how colorful and how many intricate designs there are for the Muslim forces. It is truly amazing how good this mod is at portraying the depth of detail on many of the units in the game. If I remember, I will take some screenshots to illustrate what I am referring to, although screenshots do not usually do justice to one actually sees when playing the game.