Official CA comment - Total War: The modding situation

[StrictLime]

I am hopeful that we will see some major advances in warscape engine modding, in any case, I love mods and I also love the series (even when some japanese bastard spams archers in campaign!) if they do release some good mod tools, HELL YEA!!! If not, meh, I will make due.

Since I am not a modder, and know nothing more about modding then I do about rocket science, can some one explain to me what they see as possible from this data? Any changes with the model situation, I would love to see a WWI dreadnought ripping into a German merchant ship that would make my day, nay, my year!

[Zemdu]

thx CA,

I've had my doubts and conspiracy theorys in the past but I am glad to see that I was wrong

[T.C.]

Licensure issues, lol, what is an editor but a GUI software that would generate some tables/data for the soft to use.yoy mean to say they had a 3rd party make them an editor for their game/data? That sounds ludicrous.

Ever hear of bink, speed tree(two irrelevant examples) or 3ds Max? Their editor is most likely integrated with this type of software, I doubt they have time to go pulling it apart.

3rd party doesn't just mean someone else doing something for them, 3rd party is every piece of software they use which they didn't design themselves.

[leeho730]

So, could someone explain what these databases allow to happen that wasn't possible before?

Anyways, thanks CA.

Beats me. It's not like those files were not accessible before. A pack manager could extract those DB files in no time. It's equivalent of CA releasing those export_descr text files for Medieval 2 TW, 2 years after release....

[Steph]

The pack manager exported several of these table with "unknown" columns. Now they are all identified

[taw]

the truth is, these data tables were accessible since the first week empire total war came out.

Not at all, until I opened 76 db tables in October 2010 (and fixed a lot of mistakes in otherwise "opened" tables), we had massive gaps in our knowledge (including diplomacy which totally was unmoddable). That was 19 months after release.

We still have significant gaps in knowledge even now.

[leeho730]

Now if they could only release raw data files for shogun 2, will help community before it's too late.

[T.C.]

Beats me. It's not like those files were not accessible before. A pack manager could extract those DB files in no time. It's equivalent of CA releasing those export_descr text files for Medieval 2 TW, 2 years after release....

But now we know what 600 more of the columns do than we did before.

[leeho730]

But now we know what 600 more of the columns do than we did before.

True, I'm getting some new info such as man's health (hit point) and shield bonus (a shield bonus! I'm a happy man) for units etc.

But I don't understand why CA decided to release those files, after two years. I understand CA do not want to release internal tools and source codes, but DB files.. surely they could have released them soon enough to help us modders greatly. Imagine what could have been done in the last two years with data available now!

I mean, will it harm CA to release shogun 2 raw DB files now?


To me, it looks like they had to convince SEGA more than anyone else to release those raw data... SEGA as a company is pretty DLC-heavy (but then, other companies are going into that direction as well). Unit packs and mods might have been perceived as a commercial threat. I don't mind buying DLCs as long as they are meaningful, such as what Bethesda softworks have done in the past: big semi-expansion pack with new features that could be exploited by modders. And in order to play those cool new mods I had to buy expansion packs! What more sales pitch can a game company possibly hope? I was thinking it was freaking waste of money to spend $4 for 12 units... Warpath campaign? Lame. Ikko-Ikki? $5 for one faction with warrior nun bonus units for other factions? I only bought it so that I could see that it wasn't worth $5. Perhaps $2 or $3. Come on.

Back in the old days we could spent $20 for an entire expansion with loads of new units, new features, new campaign.... New expansion pack meant another hundreds of hours modding the game, but we (or at least I) enjoyed doing it! I made some RTW mods (not released in TWcenter). I spent hundreds of hours doing it, making new units (such as making gaelic spearmen javelin troops) but for some reason it was oddly satisfying. Come to think of it I recon I spent more time modding than actually playing! Nowadays all I can do is to enable some units and change some stats.... I don't mind complexity of Warscape engine but at least CA could have let us exploit system a bit more, at least much earlier. Releasing the raw data of ETW and RTW after shogun 2 has released, but not shogun 2? Come on!

Well, I guess I'm being a bitter, old man now...

[Jack Lusted]

I think most people here misunderstood the point of my post.

I could not care less about modding tools, we have our own. I was just pointing out CA's blatant lies to the modding community by promising modding tools they did not deliver and then insulting our intelligence (or at least the intelligence of some of us) by giving us BS excuses.
Licensure issues, lol, what is an editor but a GUI software that would generate some tables/data for the soft to use.yoy mean to say they had a 3rd party make them an editor for their game/data? That sounds ludicrous.
Histwar was made by one man and shipped with a map and units editors.

All I cared about was a fix for the instant square. And as a novice programer I know for a fact that it would take less than 10 lines of code to add a counter to where there is a delay between pressing a button and its resulting action.

But yes, I agree with TC, the business plan is not there, the business plan is to produce the next lemon. They are clever people, they know that no matter how soure that lemon is there are plenty of people drinking the lemonade.

Lord VC

I'm sorry you believe we are lying and insulting you but everything we said in the first post is true.


We do not think the release of these files will satisfy modders, nor did we expect them to revolutionise modding.

We wanted to be a lot more open and honest about the modding situation, and instead of it again being just more words from us, we wanted it to be accompanied by actions. We hope the DB files will be useful. But we do not view them as an end to this.

Which info? 4/5 of the relevant tables have been decrypted but neverending trials by talented people like husser, Erasmus, TC, Darth, Toon...they, not Lordz, made the great work which helped all of us. I've always cooperate with others asking for help about maps, which is the only field where we made something new, I've started tutorial on map making which I eventually suspended due to the high level of complexity to make such tutorial for a non native english writer, but above all because low interest shown on the thread (but always helping privatly those who've been asking for help).

Noone here think that the whole DB files are useless, it's just that giving out these files two years after Empire release, and more, stating that it's a compensation for never getting unit editor or modding tools, just sounds to some a bit offensive. There's no scandal if they felt the urge to show their delusion, don't worry, CA will not go bankrupt for reading some, motivated, posts out of the chorus.

They are not compensation for no tools, nor are they meant to be. As said above, they are meant to be actions accompanying our more open and honest words. We know this is not an end to the matter. We hope it is a start.

We know these files could have been released sooner, and we hope the first post helps explain why there has not been much action on the modding front. They are not meant to placate everyone, they are a statement of a change in the nature of our communication about modding. And a change in our plans as well.

[alhoon]

We do not think the release of these files will satisfy modders, nor did we expect them to revolutionise modding.

Some of us are grateful Jack. I personally can't use anything else than the DB editor and with your generous offer, it will be made better so I can make more changes. Yes, some of us appreciate the move.
Please don't be disappointed by the reaction of a few and take a step back from the community. As a modder for LtC you didn't have to deal with as much hate because you were not "a big bad company that cares mostly about making people sad and then about making money".

A

they are a statement of a change in the nature of our communication about modding. And a change in our plans as well.

Wait, it's just the first step, with the open line like the "Ask CA about XML" thread just the second step? Did CA actually think to change their policy to mods from "neutral" to "supporting"?

Yes, I know you don't read minds nor every developer in CA and SEGA mail you their ideas about modding. I just ask your personal opinion in the matter and I would take it with a grain of salt, since you know these people more than we do. I don't ask you to give promises, just what do you think and perhaps what would follow.

[leeho730]

Right now I'm criticitizing CA's move not to release Shogun 2 raw data files. And I do not believe my request of releasing shogun 2 data files is unreasonable. Come on, CA!

[Lethe]

IWe know these files could have been released sooner, and we hope the first post helps explain why there has not been much action on the modding front. They are not meant to placate everyone, they are a statement of a change in the nature of our communication about modding. And a change in our plans as well.

I hope we do see more support for modders in the future. Mods are a selling point to me because I know I will get more play time out of a game with mods and that if there is something in the game I don't like, chances are someone has modded it.

[ForteS]

a

Right now I'm criticitizing CA's move not to release Shogun 2 raw data files. And I do not believe my request of releasing shogun 2 data files is unreasonable. Come on, CA!

They don'y give us S2 raw data files 'cause first they want to release their expansions, agreeing or not with that I understand their point. Still I think they could do both, we all know that there are other companies that support modding a lot and that make their own expansions, which in my opinion will sell more than CA expansions.

Wake up CA, I'm not judging you but if you did support modding, games would sell more, to be honest I bet that Medieval II is selling a lot more that ETW just because the mods (It did work for me, I bought it for the mods, and I didn't buy Shogun II exactly for the same reasons.)


Well anyway, keep making your games as you ever did, make good games, support us modders, and you will see your income razing.


Last but not least, make Total War: Rome II

[Birdofilo]

Finally CA recognizes that they weren't being honest with us in the past. About ETW, Kieran Brigden said:

Kieran Brigden: we will offer tools in the future and I expect there will be a user-generated map editor pretty soon after release. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/em...w-live-q-and-a

ETW was released two years ago and we are still waiting for that user-generated map editor.

Kieran Brigden: Primarily, and of most importance, Empire is moddable without tools. I imagine a large number of people will write their own basic editors for a variety of parts of the game and it's also possible to edit it with other basic apps. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/em...w-live-q-and-a

No, ETW is not moddable without tools. RTW and M2TW are moddable without tools, but ETW, NTW and TWS2 are not.

Kieran Brigden: Empire is certainly one of the more moddable TW titles in the way it's been constructed. It allows you pull things out and put them in fairly easily as it's been designed from the ground up as modular. Partly this aids our development process, and partly it aids the community. http://etw.strategyinformer.com/arti...n-brigdan.html

No, ETW is not one of the most moddable TW titles. For example, it's impossible for the commutiny to create new campaign maps. As Craig said:

The ESF stuff is pretty complex.

[leeho730]

I get it. The shogun 2 raw data can contain features that CA want to exploit in their next expansion?

But still, CA could update their engines for their expansion packs. Or is CA being lazy?

I recon CA should follow Bethesda Softworks' model: make semi-expansion DLC packs with new, cool features that can be exploited by mods; those who want to play mods that uses new features will have to first buy DLCs! That's why Bethesda is not shy about the users modding their contents, actually helping modders, since what more sales pitch can a company expect? The company essentially have a free labor that improves the DLCs and do some small patches! Clever. I can see CA is changing their direction, and it's good start, if tad late. The only darn thing is, it would have been cool to release Bunroku no Eki but unable to do so due to political reason.... that would have been DLC worth buying!

I was big about DLC, I didn't buy DLCs for ETW until the shop released ETW + NTW pack with all the DLCs.


Nah, make Medieval 3
Warscape engine is more suited to canons and firearms (Warpath campaign was meh)!

[LEGIO_Desaix]

They are not compensation for no tools, nor are they meant to be. As said above, they are meant to be actions accompanying our more open and honest words. We know this is not an end to the matter. We hope it is a start.

Good luck for others then. Since I've understood engine will get no more patch regarding formation the "new start" for me means "the end", I hope this new course will benefit modders involved in the modding of campaign.

It's a pity that improvements of new title (i'm thinking for example to occupable strategic locations in SH2 affecting moale, accuracy... or the new differentiation between defence value against cavalry and infantry) will never find an implementation in the previous titles. But I guess for a big company you can only work on a couple of titles at he same time, and of course a way to improve sells making people to buy the new release.

Since only 10 years have passed from SH to SH2, I have just to wait 9 more years to see eventually a column with a real bonus and a square without instant bonus in the "coming" NTW2 ...

In the end do we have any alternative after watching Von Bila Hussars ready to charge the gloaming bayonets in the Jena sunset...

[ForteS]

Finally CA recognizes that they weren't being honest with us in the past. About ETW, Kieran Brigden said:

ETW was released two years ago and we are still waiting for that user-generated map editor.


No, ETW is not moddable without tools. RTW and M2TW are moddable without tools, but ETW, NTW and TWS2 are not.


No, ETW is not one of the most moddable TW titles. For example, it's impossible for the commutiny to create new campaign maps. As Craig said:

Ouch
That one was strong!
---------------------------


@ CA staff

Kieran Brigden: Empire is certainly one of the more moddable TW titles in the way it's been constructed. It allows you pull things out and put them in fairly easily as it's been designed from the ground up as modular. Partly this aids our development process, and partly it aids the community. http://etw.strategyinformer.com/arti...n-brigdan.html

True, now we know how to do that, both with the packs and with the .esf files, now neither of those was done with your help... Anyway I say again help with .esf would be appreciated mainly 'cause as you said:

The ESF stuff is pretty complex.

To be honnest (I don't want to offend you by anyway ) but it starts to seem me that you work the following way: CA: Okay game released, let's wait and see what tools they can create and what will they do with them, if they come to a average modding level we will give them some help after the hard part is done.Sorry but is what it seems, but again don't take it as a insult, I respect what you are doing for us.

[Von_Clausewitz]

Hi jack lusted,

We are not haters like some are trying to portray us. If we were, we would not have bought the game or spent countless hours modding it.

No one improves from constant positive feedback even if in certain instances it is not deserved.
Our criticisim is for CA to take into consideration moving forward.
I know TW titles keep attracting new players to the genre but I also know for a fact that more and more total war fanatics are deserting due to decisions made by the company and titles lacking the depth that serious gamers hoped for. I know that because I now have joined their ranks.

Our frustration at the lordz is because we are napoleonic fanatics. We are very disappointed by the square/column/line mechanics. These are the fundamentals of napoleonic warfare and the game is lacking without them.

It would have been the right thing to do after all the requests, and complaints about it to fix it.
Adding a delay to square formation would take less than a day to implement.
Looking in the db files I can see that a column formation was in the works and then abandoned, why not finish the work?

Best regards,
Lord VC

[T.C.]

Our frustration at the lordz is because we are napoleonic fanatics. We are very disappointed by the square/column/line mechanics. These are the fundamentals of napoleonic warfare and the game is lacking without them.

But it's not a strict Napoleonic simulator, its a TW game set in Napoleonic times. That is why there are, and always will be, so many historical innacuracies in it. It's been the same since the start of TW, it's not going to change now. Claiming that CA are suddenly getting lazy is pointless, 100% historical accuracy is not, nor ever was, their goal in these games.