Consulate of Poplicola and Corvenus - 482AVC

[War lord]

Bleeding Rome dry will not have a significant positive effect,in fact it would leave quite a few Plebeians out on the street while the people we just conquered pay nearly no tax!Do you wish to explain to them that their family is being left to starve so that some Patrician can collect yet more glory?

[Kubrick]

Marcus giggled at Caldius remark, the man knew how to exaggerate.

'Oh Caldius, I sometimes suspect you followed drama classes with the actors. Roman tax payers wont even notice the difference, they know the Republic is at war. They know war requires money, and yes, they are true Romans and yes, they will happily pay for the Republic. My assistants thoroughly researched all my proposals before I dared showing them to the senate, this bill is waterproof. And as I said before, the south is in a pacifying state, a few seasons later and they will pay as much as the other socii.'

[Jingo Eugene]

"Bleeding Rome..."

Crispus reviews the bill

• At Arpi the tax rate shall be very high.

• At Ariminum the tax rate shall be high.

"At Arpi, the area that is still recuperating from the rebellion, we are taking them more than he has proposed for Rome! So how is that not bleeding Arpi dry, yet setting a lesser tax for Rome is? I fail to see your logic. I am sure we all can go without an extra vacation for the sake of the Republic, do you not agree Senators?"

[Nota']

Won't affect the plebians you say? They won't notice the difference? If you are so confident why don't you annouce it to them at the roastra. It has been years since I have seen a man hold the plebs so well that they smile when he mentions 'tax rises'.

You may quote the cases where taxes are higher, but need i remind you of at least two settlements that enjoy negligible taxes. You would reward them for rebelling or falling to Rome.

*Spurius stopped there smiling. If he continued on such form Senators might actually support him on this.*

[War lord]

An extra holiday?For you maybe,with almost limitless Gold,but the vast majority of Romans who are living in blocks of Tenements are already just scraping by without you doubling what they must pay.And let us not forget the farmers who fight our wars,already they are losing money by being kept away from their farms for such an extended period,and you would aggravate the situation.

[Maiar93]

Flavius turned to Caldius

And here you go again! Arguing with the other senators, to gain what? I would like to remind you, that, they are romans. Roman citizens, which they are proud of. They will happily pay their taxes when they know the money goes for war efforts.

He turned to address all the senators

We need to reinforce our legions quickly so we can strike at our enemy. Our current finances allow us to recruit them, so here i propose this law:

Two maniples of Hastatii, two of Principes and one of Triarii shall be recruited from Roma to supplement the battered legion. Also two maniples of Rorarii and one of Accensi will be recruited from Arretium.

The cost of this bill will be the following:

Hastatii(2 maniples): 2012 mnai, upkeep 504 mnai.
Principes(2 maniples): 2092 mnai, upkeep 524 mnai.
Triarii(1 maniple): 1623 mnai, upkeep 406 mnai.
Rorarii(2 maniples): 1918 mnai, upkeep 240 mnai.
Accensi(1 maniple): 336 mnai, upkeep 84 mnai.

In total, this would cost 7981 mnai, and the upkeep would in total be 1758 mnai.

Thsi bill would take half of our current wealth and half of our current income, but with these reinforcements proposed, this senate, this city will soon be the center of an empire!

[Merula]

Marcus hears the Consul speak of the Legions,

You speak of raising more men Consul? But what about the depleted legions we already have, will they be retrained with more men?

Is this new list a "Legio III" or is it an attachement to one of the other Legio's, please clear these discrepancies up for me as i am slightly confused at the present.

Marcus smiles at the Consul, 'at least he has the right intentions'...

[Maiar93]

Flavius looked at the parchment again, spotted the words and showed them to the Senator.

Two maniples of Hastatii, two of Principes and one of Triarii shall be recruited from Roma to supplement the battered legion.

To answer your rightful questions, the men will be retrained in Roma and then sent to Arretium to be merged with the allied Rorarii and Accensi. I have calculated that with these reinforcements we should have a full legion ready for action.

[Kubrick]

Marcus was a bit surprised at the proposal, he had cut short on his own bill so the armies could be brought back to the fighting shape. He really wanted to upgrade forums and enterprises in Rome and the allied cities. Not to mention those mines in Rhegion which where just begging to deliver gold to Rome. Let's hope the consul is not that stubborn.

'Consul, as it will take several seasons to recruit these troops they will surely fit our budget. But I do request that for the next season we will also start upgrading buildings within Rome. Right now there are not much buildings that economically benefit us. That said, another great thing to create finances are the mines in Rhegion, I firmly believe it should have priority. Please take in account that after the legions are retrained and with the added forces the upkeep will be much higher than it is right now. If you wish to spend money you must also find a way to acquire it. I would support it with the assurance that the recruiting of the troops is not done in haste, as that would deplete our financial state.'

[Maiar93]

Flavius looked at Sophus, finally the man talked, Flavius wasn't a money-man anyway.
Your words are wise, Quaestor. I agree with you, so please edit the proposal for our financial needs. It can then be put to vote by the name of "Lex Corvenus et Sophus De Re Militari et oeconomicas"

OOC: I hope thats the right translation for "Corvenus's and Sophus's law concerning military and financial matters"

[Kubrick]

Marcus rubbed his chin and started calculating in his head. He then gestured at a scribe who brought him a piece of parchment. He scribbled on it and took a look at Corvenus his proposal, then scribbled some further. After only a few minutes he stood up and presented his proposal.

'After my bill has been put in action we still have 6583 to invest in the military plan. As the situation in the south is still very unstable I suspect we are unable to move any legions to Rome. Maybe we can even recruit some local levies there to maintain the order? Anyways, not to be carried away by other things, I believe we should simply change the numbers of the maniples for the Hastati and Principes, both from 2 to 1. This will at least assure we can place all these recruitments orders this season. And then it will approximately take 3 seasons to finish the training for these men. Next season, when we approximately have 11,000 mnai we could spend 6000 on the army while we keep 5000 in reserve, if we do that for 3 seasons we can start constructing the mines in Rhegion.'

Marcus paused for a moment, again deep in thought.

'Perhaps we could use the remaining money, approximately 600 mnai, to recruit some levies in Rhegion so we can extract the legion there. Ofcourse that is all just speculation, my actual proposal is to lower the Hastati and Principes recruitment to 1 for each. Then the bill would look like this.' Marcus quickly started scribbling on a example of Corvenus his proposal, he then showed the edited version.

One maniple of Hastatii, one of Principes and one of Triarii shall be recruited from Roma to supplement the battered legion. Also two maniples of Rorarii and one of Accensi will be recruited from Arretium.

The cost of this bill will be the following:

Hastatii(1 maniple): 1006 mnai, upkeep 252 mnai.
Principes(1 maniple): 1046 mnai, upkeep 262 mnai.
Triarii(1 maniple): 1623 mnai, upkeep 406 mnai.
Rorarii(2 maniples): 1918 mnai, upkeep 240 mnai.
Accensi(1 maniple): 336 mnai, upkeep 84 mnai.

In total, this would cost 5929 mnai, and the upkeep would in total be 1244 mnai.

Marcus smiled as he seated again, the more he did it, the more he started loving his job.

[Maiar93]

Flavius looked satisfied, indeed he proved here that his words were wise and with backup.


I will agree here with you. This bill will do. I expect that at most in ten seasons all is ready for war.

[CK23]

"Senators, before we move entirely off the taxes subject. Might I add that Cladius, you do not speak for the people, a vast majority of the Plebeians would likely support the taxes if given something in return. I have served in the Roman Legions, it is something that inspires even the poorest Plebeian and the richest Patrician. However we have a grave problem in Rome, not everyone can serve. The Patricians run the Legions, they can afford the equipment and fight only for their rights...not the People of Rome." Faustus stated proudly in his long winded speech. "As I vowed during my campaign to get elected as Tribune of the Plebeians...I ask that we formulate new regulations on joining the legions. Instead of having just the landed Patricians...I ask that the entire Republic pay for the equipment and training and allow all men regardless of social class to enter the ranks of the proud Roman legions." Faustus paused and eyed the Senate, some were discussing others were just watching. "This would alleviate the problems of the military by increasing the ranks nearly ten-fold." It was also allow us to create a more efficient pay system in the legions."

((OOC: I figured when the time comes...were gonna needa to have someone as the Reformer and I feel like the Plebeian guy to do it! We can shoot it down now since we are not near the reform but once we are I can be hailed as a motha' lovin' hero.))

[Maiar93]

Flavius looked at Faustus, with a deep shocking look on his face. He quickly redeemed himself, and answered:

That would not be beneficial. We patricians must take up on arms, not plebeians. It is our duty to defend the plebs.

And of money. Ten-fold our army? By Gods! We would be out of money in a week!

OOC: Lets shoot it down for now, when reforms are close CK does it again and we accept

[Nota']

You say this after a Quaestor produces a bill to increase cost? All of this costs money, money we dont have. Further more, it is not lack of men that is the problem, it is again lack of money, and increasing the size of the army tenfold would only worsen the situation.

[dragoon47]

Read to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5B-T7AOnkI

Lucius strode into the Curia, he had been in both Taras and Rhegion and visited Arpi on the way back. Vibius had gone North to study the terrain and if possible, find the enemy. He was successful in the former which was good enough but a feeling still lurked in the back of his mind. He visited the Quaestor's office on his was to the Curia as well, casting his vote on the Quaestor's bill or rather, stating his neutrality towards it and getting some papers copied by the scribes, two such articles in particular. By the time he had arrived at the Curia he could already hear heated debate. He entered and strode to his seat, seemingly cool but exhibiting a warmer aura than the first term, never repeat the same act consecutively, always keep the audience guessing, then he sat, standing soon afterward, his expression changing to complete focus, catching a few senators off guard.

I have here a petition by the people of Arpi. A petition against the taxes levied against them by Attelus of the Basilisci last term, the same taxes that have been set down to be levied until the end of the war with Epeiros. Have we not reached that point?

Once we have reached the end of this war, Quaestor Sempronius Sophus has deemed it necessary to extend that period of taxation? A taxation that nearly led to full-scale war throughout Italia? Even Ariminum in the North expressed their views on the bill by protests in the streets, what if they joined in the rebellion or even asked for one of the Northern tribes for protection? Mind you that was not a revolt as Arpi was but the fact remains senators, we now hold responsibility for these peoples and their livelihoods.

This bill put forth by the Quaestor also makes no political sense. It will lower the taxes in Ariminum, cross-checking the law by Attelus and keep the taxes of a people that have revolted because of it at the standard that they first rebelled upon. the only thing keeping them from repeating the episode is the hope that we will lower the taxes. It is not a developed settlement, they have no revenue like the major ones and in the long-run this tax will hurt their economy in ways that the Quaestor has not foreseen. It will be a ghost town within a month, which is little under what it is now and this senate will receive no funds at all and in fact lose funds as those people turn to banditry to make their own revenues.

However, that is the only part of the bill I can refute. I have no problem with the rest although education in Capua would be more important than some lowly race-course if we wish to keep that city in our best interests, let alone working public baths and other systems.

I also question my co-consul's choices regarding our military. He recruits men yes but they are a means without an end. Socrates says that a disorderly mob is no more an army than a heap of building materials is a house. Corvenus of the Julii and Imperious of the Naevii have proposed bills that are detrimental to the republic. Who would lead an army ten times the size of the current forces ready to disband? How would we train them all? It's hard enough to pay the current soldiers their wages for food, now you wish us to pay for their equipment?

Our army fights to defend their homes. Men without anything to lose back home will fight like they have nothing to lose and die more easily than other men. They will become fat on the greasing of the state until they are happy enough that they ignore the enemy when it counts, possibly even deserting once they receive their wages. Plebeians serve in this army, not only Patricians. The poor can afford javelins, the better off can afford basic armor and pay for pilum construction, the rest become veterans of past conflicts and make more money than I'm sure this state would like to admit off of the looting of the dead and captured cities. Selling their ill-gotten items off for better equipment themselves so that they may survive longer to accumulate even more personal wealth, proving that their current pay is sufficient.

I wish to retort my fellow consul's bill with a bill that he himself supported. Now he changes his mind and wishes to recruit more soldiers than would fit the republic's current needs? Does he wish that Rome make no grain, that the people should starve because all of the men are off to war fighting instead of being home for the Autumn harvest? I therefore restate my proposal from last term for all to see. Possibly more stately than I first intended this branding to be, however, no sense wasting the moment. Lucius passed out the papers.

Lex Valeria De Re Militari - 482AUC

I propose a motion to create a standardized, consular army, so that we may better fight our enemies with overwhelming force and flexibility in combat. Roman Consular Army: 1 General 1 Equites 2 Hastati 2 Principes 1 Triarii 1 Rorarii 1 Leves 1 Accensi Socii: 1 General 1 Campanian Cavalry 2 Bruttian Infantry 2 Ligurian Infantry 2 Samnite Infantry 2 Lucanian Infantry The Senior consul shall be put in command of the soldiers of Rome, the Junior shall command the Socii. This bill fits our current budget well and can be put into effect with minimal effort. Should the army need expansion, both wings shall be increased to consular armies with the same commands, reflected by these rolls Roman Consular Army: 1 General 2 Equites 4 Hastati 4 Principes 3 Triarii 2 Rorarii 2 Leves 2 Accensi Socii: 1 General 2 Campanian Cavalry 5 Bruttian Infantry 5 Ligurian Infantry 3 Samnite Infantry 4 Lucanian Infantry

I will also formalize my previous statement about the situation in Arpi as an amendment to the bill proposed by the Quaestor. This is either political suicide or sound reasoning...possibly both.

Lex Valeria De Re Census De Arpi

I. Effective immediately, the heavily-laden taxes laid upon the settlement of Arpi shall cease for the commercial interests of the Roman people. The taxes shall be lowered to a standard collection rate pending pressing need of funds.

I sincerely hope that the senate will give these matters some thought. I feel strongly about the matter of Arpi so I have deemed it necessary to vote on it as law rather than a suggestion. It is in Rome's best economic interests that it be passed. With those words, Lucius sat back down. Your move, senators.

[Winter]

Lepidus stands

"Conscript fathers, let us reconsider. Racetracks for the allies, after a major war that has left much of our infrastructure, our land, in ruin, and so many of our brave soldiers dead? Should we not be focusing on our economy, on reestablishing our trade routes? On expanding our agricultural capacity and our networks of roads? The People cannot allow a bill so shortsighted! I assert my rights as Tribune and intercede! The proposed motion concerning the building and taxes for the new term cannot go forward in its present state!

This Senate should be focused on ways to improve the lives and livelihood of our people following this catastrophic war, not pacifying them with games and spectacle."

[Maiar93]

Flavius looked at Poplicola, not trusting his ears

So now, at this point you come here and put aside all the work I and Sophus have done, to steal the glory for yourself? Be known that we have already a motion ready. He took out a parchment from the scribe

'After my bill has been put in action we still have 6583 to invest in the military plan. As the situation in the south is still very unstable I suspect we are unable to move any legions to Rome. Maybe we can even recruit some local levies there to maintain the order? Anyways, not to be carried away by other things, I believe we should simply change the numbers of the maniples for the Hastati and Principes, both from 2 to 1. This will at least assure we can place all these recruitments orders this season. And then it will approximately take 3 seasons to finish the training for these men. Next season, when we approximately have 11,000 mnai we could spend 6000 on the army while we keep 5000 in reserve, if we do that for 3 seasons we can start constructing the mines in Rhegion.'

- Sophus

'Perhaps we could use the remaining money, approximately 600 mnai, to recruit some levies in Rhegion so we can extract the legion there. Ofcourse that is all just speculation, my actual proposal is to lower the Hastati and Principes recruitment to 1 for each. Then the bill would look like this.'

Quote:
One maniple of Hastatii, one of Principes and one of Triarii shall be recruited from Roma to supplement the battered legion. Also two maniples of Rorarii and one of Accensi will be recruited from Arretium.

The cost of this bill will be the following:

Hastatii(1 maniple): 1006 mnai, upkeep 252 mnai.
Principes(1 maniple): 1046 mnai, upkeep 262 mnai.
Triarii(1 maniple): 1623 mnai, upkeep 406 mnai.
Rorarii(2 maniples): 1918 mnai, upkeep 240 mnai.
Accensi(1 maniple): 336 mnai, upkeep 84 mnai.

In total, this would cost 5929 mnai, and the upkeep would in total be 1244 mnai.

With this proposal we'd first recruit these men along with economical improvements, and after a few seasons of economical improvement we'd focus on military again. I agree with Lepidus here.

[Winter]

Lepidus responds to Corvenus.

"While I welcome your sudden change of heart, Consul, the others in this chamber would do well to note that your agreement with my own thinking comes on the heels of me vetoing a measure, which you yourself supported, that would have us spending our precious funds on frivolities for allied states."

Probably should not have said that, he thought. Could never keep your mouth shut, could you?

[Jingo Eugene]

Crispus stands, "Right now, we need to pacify the unruly crowds, even if it means these 'games and spectales'. It is hard to improve their lives while they are rioting in the streets is it not?"