Alternate Unit Balance Proposal

[Spike]

well, since culture based unit balance somewhat sucks and severely imbalanced by cost-unit effectiveness ratio, more specifically: the cultures that receive attack and defense penalty (Carthaginians) - yes, civic troops are bad, but that means they're not all round troops, and should be cheaper. ; and oh, the unit tiers that is more expensive, but rather worthless for their pricess (machimoi troops), and cavalry is utter useless in this mod (they did capable to do their job in "intelligent" player's hands, but AI cavalry will be easily countered by anything, well, anything, unlike either EB or RSII when your non spear infantry should prepares to take over casualities should they receive cavalry charges.

BTW, this is my proposal :

1) base unit cost should be calculated by "standard calibration formula" method, that means, each attack points, defense, armour , and or others, will have some cost calculated for them. The per equipments value still counted, but their equipments will vary on cost and lethality (but for some unit that have similar weapons, the attack rates is rather following standard straight line function). Upkeep will also affected by their function to cost and unit sources (see 3)

2) unit statistics should be put at higher average level, instead of 5,6,7,8,9 points of attack and defense points in teens, we should have attacks calibrated at teens, and defense in 20's or 30's, lethality should be adjusted as well (well, 1 HP or 2 HP will affect missile attack rates and lethality, obviously)

3) cost steps for levies, militias, semi-regulars/feudal troops, professionals, and elites, also affect upkeep steps, of course, for similar performances, levies are cheaper than professionals, but levies and professionals will have different morale values.

4) bodyguard costs will be more "reasonable" compared to their overall numbers and performances, especially in custom battles.

5) And I want to tweak unit numbers for such.
- levy to regular infantry = 60
- superrior grade infantry = 50
- elite grade infantry = 40
- levy to regular cavalry = 30
- supperior grade cavalry = 25
- elite grade cavalry = 20
- bodyguard = half numbers of their respective ranks (regular cavalry BG will have 15 men, while supperior have 12 men and elite cavalry BG will have 10 men)

6) differentiations between weapons and their attack rates ; note : this is taken from a mod we're working ... explainations in PM

the weaponary: (note that average attack is attack value used by trained troops, levies and militia obviously got less, and elites more)

A) Spears (average attack 13-14)
- will be divided into 2 further subcategories
a) short bladed / simple stake spears
- underhand grip = light_spear ; lethality 0.6 ; attack delay = 0 ; charge is 13,7 and 14,8
- overhead grip = light_spear ; lethality 0.63 ; attack delay = 0 ; charge is 13,9 and 14,10
- 2 handed grip = light_spear ; lethality 0.66 ; attack delay = 0 ; charge is 13,9 and 14,10
b) long/broad bladed - quality spears
- underhand grip = light_spear ; lethality 0.64 ; attack delay = 0 ; charge is 13,9 and 14,10
- overhead grip = light_spear ; lethality 0.67 ; attack delay = 0 ; charge is 13,11 and 14,12
- 2 handed grip = light_spear ; lethality 0.7 ; attack delay = 0 ; charge is 13,11 and 14,12
*. PS ; keep in mind that spear attack sequence is indeed faster, but light_spear attribute give that (PEEP) -4 attack vs infantry, so this balance each others out

B) Swords
single swords (average attack 13-14)
a) short swords - most low quality swords
- lethality 0.58 ; attack delay 0 ; charge is 13,7 and 14,8
b) medium swords - either quality shortswords, or stabbing swords
- lethality 0.64 ; attack delay 0 ; charge is 13,9 and 14,10
c) long swords - obvious
- lethality 0.7 ; attack delay 0 ; charge is 13,11 and 14,12
d) double swords (average attack 17-18) - well, remember dual wielding units (if there...)
- lethality 0.9 ; area attack ; charge is 17,17 and 18,18 ; raise shield value by 1
e) 2 handed swords (average attack is 17,18) - big (PEEP) swords
- lethality 1 ; area attack ; charge is 17,19 and 18,20 ; power_charge
*. PS: swords are the most dexterous weapons (spear is technically as dexterous in the code, but they suffer attack penalty vs infantry, so), they have 0 attack delay, 2 handed and double swords have area attack, so they're still competitive even without armour piercing attributes, and keep in mind that 2 handed and double swords are the most (PEEP) (PEEP) weapons in the battlesystem

C) Trauma inducing Weapons
a) random blunt weapons (such as "crude" wooden club or musket butt) (average attack 9-10)
- lethality 0.56, delay 20, charge 9,3 and 10,4
*. PS : the most useless weapons in melee, that's obvious
b) single handed simple mace (such as "better clubs" or straight simple maces (average attack 11-12)
- armor piercing, lethality 0.58, delay 40, charge 11,9 and 12,10
c) single handed axe/big maces (average attack 11-12)
- armor piercing, lethality 0.62, delay 40, charge 11,9 and 12,10
d) heavy curved sword such as kukri or war sickles (farming sickes go to medium sword) (average attack 13-14)
- armor piercing, lethality 0.64, delay 10, charge 13,11 and 14,12
*. PS: the most potent weapon in attack terms, but in terms of cost, they're the most expensive for single handed weapons, they're almost as dexterous as normal swords, having considerable lethality
e) halberds (average attack 15-16)
- two slot will be used
- light_spear, armor piercing, lethality 0.72, delay 20, charge 15,15 and 16,16
- armor piercing, using 2 handed anim for second slot), lethality 0.73, delay 60, charge 15,15 and 16,16
*. PS: halberd is both capable to receive cavalry charges, or hacking infantry apart in additions to armour piercing
f) 2 handed axe (big (PEEP) axes!) (average attack 17-18)
- armor piercing, lethality 0.8, delay 60, charge 17,19 and 18,20
*. PS: the most (PEEP) lethal weapon in 1 on 1 combat, ap attribute made them quick killers, even on 2 HP and lower lethality to their sword counterparts, so that's why the delay and area attack for their swords counterpart are used to keep 2 handed swords still (PEEP) (PEEP) (PEEP) against axes

D) bows and arrows: (NOTE: 1 HP means attack rates will be changed)
- cheap (rather moderate on accuracy) - delay 20 - average range 140-160 m, attack is average 11
- expensive / compsite bow (absolute accuracy) - delay 20 - - flaming arrow capable - average range 170 - 190 m, attack is average 11, but since most of them elites, they'll likely to proportionately higher, note, since we're using 2 HP, their accuracy is unmodified for expensive bows - they still need 2 kill per person, in terms of game mechanics
- crossbow (rather moderate on accuracy) - delay 2000 - average range 130-150 m, attack is average 11, and use armor piercing attribute, they're dangerous, but their weakness is range, accuracy, and firing time
- longbow - actually not used much, but I included this - delay 20 - average range is 180-200 m, absolute accuracy - flaming arrow capable - armor piercing - yeah, attack is average 13, don't drolling out, they're the most expensive bows in cost and upkeep!

E) GUNS - XC DIDN'T HAVE GUNS!
- fear effect, armor piercing, delay 5000, thrown attribute (bypass double shield value), range is average 80-90 m, and inaccurate, attack value is average 17, don't worry, they're not overpowered, but will really (PEEP) in close range volleys (as most of them are near-insta killers)

F) javelins
- light javelins, thrown, average range 60-70 but may be lower for precursor units, average attack is 14
- heavy javelins / throwing spears, average range is 40-50, armor piercing, thrown, average attack is 14

7) defensive stats:

defensive stats

minimum defensive stats for your untrained peasants are
3 armour, 15 defense skill, and 2 shield points (yeah, that means they're basically can't be cut (PEEP) down as easily as before), with further default 0.3 unit radius for all, and mass started at 1

they'll get more armoured according to the equipment they wear

largest shield value is 8 (for (PEEP) extra large wooden (PEEP) shield), organic bucker is 5 and metal buckler is 6

armour value is calculated in more complex ways though...

8) armour values:
cost is calculated per points, but each body equipments will have their own additions, to the base armour of 3. (still need to be differentiated)

9) unit role bonus/penalties
- melee units will obviously got discount on morale, missile units got less

10) culture bonus/penalties
- not as big as before, but may really differentiate the overall faction's rooster average
- we're not differentiating on attacks, rather a point of defense skills, stamina bonus, morale points, or somethings.

------ well ...

[Apollyon]

I agree the battle system needs updating. It (along with the occasional CTD) detract from a mod with unbelievable potential.

No skill in modding myself, I have no idea what effect these changes will bring, so I cannot comment on specifics.

[Zarax]

Will reply later in detail.
For discussion sake, here's XC current system as taken from EDU:

;********************************************************************************
; XGM-XC Mass, Radius, and Lethality Values
;********************************************************************************
;
; Mass
; Skirmisher: 0.7
; Light Infantry: 0.8
; Inferior Phalanx: 0.85
; Regular Infantry: 1.0 - also armoured skirmisher
; Regular Phalanx: 1.05 - also iphicratean hoplite
; Elite Phalanx: 1.25
; Heavy Infantry: 1.2 - also 2h infantry
; Berseker: 1.5
; Unarmoured Hoplite: 1.3
; Scale/Chain/Linen Hoplite: 1.4
; Muscled Cuirass Hoplite: 1.5
; Berserker: 1.8
; Cavalry: 1 (not used)
;
; Radius
; Default 0.4
; Two handed 0.5
; Hoplite 0.3
;
;
;Weapon lethality:
;
;Weapon Value Cost
;
;Dagger 0.1 50
;Club 0.25 25
;Pike 0.3 200 attack 3/4, rounded down; Not affected by ANY attack modifiers besides that
;Iphicratean spear 0.315 150 attack 4/5, rounded down
;Spear 0.325 100
;Axe/Mace 0.35 150
;Short Sword/falx 0.375 200
;Gladius/Falcata 0.4 250
;Long Sword 0.425 300
;2h Sword/Axe 0.45 500/250
;Lance 0.95 150
;
; Min_Delay
; Normal: 25
; Cavalry: 50 (with saddle 37)
; Cavalry lancer: 95 (with saddle 90)
; Cavalry saddles to all for steppes, lvl3 for eastern, lvl4 for barbarians and eastern-type
; greek units, lvl5 for carthaginians and roman post marius troops
;
;**************************************************************************************
;
; Weapon Tech (early list)
; simple (light) spears, axes, javelins, low-level swords units
; blade (heavy) pila, lances, high-level swords
; archery (missile) non-elephant archers
; siege siege weapons
; other slingers, elephants, and some others
;
; Armour levels: first revision, to be reviewed for balance
;
; Armour equipment Value Def Mod Cost
;
; none, no helmet: 0 +2 0
; none, leather cap: 1 +2 50
; leather, no helmet: 2 +2 100
; leather, leather cap: 3 +2 150
; none, helmet: 3 +2 200
; leather, helmet: 4 +1 300
; padded, helmet: 4 +1 300
; breastplate, leather cap: 4 0 450
; breastplate, helmet: 5 0 500
; light linothorax/studded leather, helmet: 5 0 600
; linothorax/leather lamellar, helmet: 6 0 700
; mail/light scale, no helmet: 6 -1 850
; mail/light scale, helmet: 7 -1 950
; light linothorax, breastplate 7 -1 1000
; heavy scale, no helmet: 7 -2 1100
; heavy scale/mail, helmet: 8 -2 1200
; barbarian cuirass, helmet: 8 -2 1400
; lorica segmentata, helmet: 8 -1 1200
; mail+breastplate, helmet: 9 -2 1350
; full heavy scale/mail, helmet, chain veil: 9 -2 1200 cavalry only (early cataphract)
; half cuirass, helmet: 9 -2 1500
; muscle cuirass, helmet: 10 -3 1800
; metal lamellar scale, helmet: 10 -2 1450
; full metal lamellar scale, helmet, chain veil: 11 -3 1700 cavalry only (cataphract)
; composite mail+scale, helmet, chain veil: 12 -3 2000
;
;
;Shield modifiers: tentative revision, needs detailed research
;
;Shield type Value Def modifier Cost
;
;no shield 0 +2 0
;Thracian pelta 1 +2 30
;Light round shield 2 +2 50
;round shield, iron boss 3 +1 100
;Light thureos 3 +1 100
;thureos, boss/spine 4 0 150
;Wicker shield 4 -1 100
;Aspis/scutum 5 -1 200
;
;Missile range:
;
;Pilum/Falarica: 25 DMG 9 Price 100
;Heavy Javelin: 30 DMG 8 Price 80
;Javelin: 40 DMG 6 Price 60
;Western bow: 80 warrow DMG 4 Price 50
;Sling stone: 90 stone DMG 3 Price 30
;Eastern bow: 100 earrow DMG 5 Price 55
;Sling bullet: 110 bullet DMG 4 Price 35
;Elite eastern bow: 110 earrow/elitearrow DMG 6 Price 60
;Hunnic bow: 120 earrow/elitearrow DMG 7 Price 75
;
;Modifiers for javelins:
;
;Barbarian +10% range
;Professional/Elite/Fanatic: +5% range
;
;Modifiers for slingers:
;
;Balearic: bullet, +1 damage
;Nuragic: stone, +1 damage
;
;Bow modifiers:
;
; Parthian Elite or Nomad: +5% range
; Non-Nomadic HA: -10% range
; Indian Longbow: +1 DMG pus +5% range
;
;*******************************************************************************
; Atk, defence and morale per class, before modifiers
;*******************************************************************************
;
;Infantry:
;
;Class Level Atk Def Mrl
;
;Garrison 0 3 4 4 ;Not affected by negative modifiers due to already low stats
;Levy 1 4 5 6
;Militia 2 6 7 8
;Regular 3 8 10 11
;Professional 4 10 13 14
;Elite 5 12 15 17
;
;Cavalry: Normal attack values, 3/4 defence calculated after all the ethnic and armour bonuses and penalties
;
;*******************************************************************************
;Stat modifiers
;*******************************************************************************
;Cultural modifiers:
;
;Culture Atk Def Mrl
;
;Barbarian +2 +1 0
;Carthaginian -2 -1 0 ;Civic, infantry
;Eastern +1 0 -2
;Egyptian 0 0 -2 ;Machimoi
;Greek 0 +1 0
;Roman 0 0 +1
;Saba +1 0 +2
;
;Role modifiers:
;
;Class Sub-class Atk Def Mrl Lvl
;
;Militia Phalanx 0 -2 -2 0
;Regular Phalanx 0 -2 -1 0
;Professional Phalanx 0 -1 0 0
;Regular Minor Noble 0 0 +2 0
;Regular Fanatic +3 0 +6 0
;Regular Veteran +1 +1 +2 0
;Levy Skirmisher -2 -2 -2 0 ;morale applies to all, others over levy level
;Regular Iphicratean 0 -1 0 0
;Professional Iphicratean 0 0 0 0
;
;Infantry Mount effects: horse camel elephant
;
;Class/Ethnic:
;
;Skirmisher -4 -2 +2
;Garrison -2 -1 -2
;Non spear militia -1 -1 -1
;Spear militia 1 1 -1
;Spear regular 2 2 -1
;Spear professional 4 4 0
;Spear Elite 4 4 1
;Western barb 0 0 -4
;Greek/Roman 0 0 -3
;Eastern 0 0 -2
;Numidian/Indian/Ethiopian 0 0 0
;
;Cavalry mount effects:
;
;Class/Ethnic: camel elephant
;
;Western barb -4 -8
;Roman -4 -8
;Western greek -4 -8
;eastern greek -3 -7
;Carthaginian -3 -6
;Eastern -2 -6
;Arab -1 -6
;Numidian -3 -3
;Indian -3 -2
;Steppe -2 -6
;*******************************************************************************
;
; Upkeep system
; base
; garrison: 250
; levy: 280
; militia: 500
; regular: 850
; professional: 1000
; elite: 1500
;
; recruitment cost = upkeep + equipment
; cavalry cost = upkeep + (mount + equipment)/2
;
; Mount cost:
;
; Mount Cost armour
;
; light horse 500
; medium horse 700
; heavy horse 950
; generals horse 1450 2
; horse half arm 1450 2
; horse armoured 2225 4
; horse kataphract 2650 6
; camel 900
; camel kataphract 2600 3
; barb chariot 1750
; sabean chariot 1750
; greek chariot 2375
; elephant forest 1900
; elephant indian 2375
; elephant african 2850
; elephant kataphract 4925
;
;
;modifiers:
;
;barbarian: -10%
;Carthage: -5% cav
;GCS: -10% inf, +10% cav
;roman: -10% inf, +20% cav
;eastern: +10% inf, -10% cav
;steppe: +20% inf, -20% cav
;elephant: +20%

I'd also like you to state in detail which units you find under/over powered as some are like that by design.

[Zarax]

This will take a while to properly address.
First of all, several units in XC are balanced in a way that discourages their use and that is for historical reasons.

yes, civic troops are bad, but that means they're not all round troops, and should be cheaper. ;

Civic troops are supposed to be emergency fighters and they were used only in 3 occasions near our timeframe:

- at the time of the battle of Chaeronea, where they were badly beaten in Sicily.
- during the truceless war, where they managed to defeat the worst rebellion in punic history.
- during the 3rd punic war, where after some initial success they were utterly destroyed.

Note that their only successful use took nothing less than Hamalcar Barca (Hannibal's father and almost as good general) as they fared rather poorly under anyone else.

and oh, the unit tiers that is more expensive, but rather worthless for their pricess (machimoi troops),

Machimoi are another case of emergency troops, not meant to be used if greek alternatives are present.
The ptolemies used them as emergency phalanx (since there weren't enough greek to fill the ranks) at Raphia with good results, but it costed them a huge price in terms of internal stability and gutted their expansion forever as the trained natives would be the ones leading future rebellions, forcing the greek to stay at home to keep them in check rather than fighting abroad.

I could make them better troops for their price but then I would need to add nasty unrest penalties to barracks in egypt to balance that. Your choice

and cavalry is utter useless in this mod (they did capable to do their job in "intelligent" player's hands, but AI cavalry will be easily countered by anything, well, anything, unlike either EB or RSII when your non spear infantry should prepares to take over casualities should they receive cavalry charges.

Low tier cavalry were little more than mounted skirmishers everywhere and used to chase foot skirmishers and routing infantry.
Unlike in game no sane cavalryman would charge unbroken infantry and expect to get good results, especially from the front.
Of course elites and kataphracts were able to give gruesome casualties but they were a small part of any army, which in game is reflected by their high cost.

Non-professional spearless infantry actually gets a penalty versus cavalry, as shown by the balancing system:

;Skirmisher -4
;Garrison -2 (and those are spearmen)
;Non spear militia -1

Of course the fact that many low tier units were actually spearmen it means they stood a chance to repel lesser cavalry but elite ones are be a serious problem for any infantry except elite spears (and even those don't come unscathed).

The principle for good cavalry use is charge, disengage and repeat, but always remember that outside the steppes cavalry was a support arm, not a battle-winner in itself.
If you think cavalry is useless under AI control try fighting the sarmatians of tocharian rebel stacks, you will get severely bruised to say the least.

BTW, this is my proposal :

1) base unit cost should be calculated by "standard calibration formula" method, that means, each attack points, defense, armour , and or others, will have some cost calculated for them. The per equipments value still counted, but their equipments will vary on cost and lethality (but for some unit that have similar weapons, the attack rates is rather following standard straight line function). Upkeep will also affected by their function to cost and unit sources (see 3)

Infantry cost in XC is calculated using those factors:

(upkeep )*cultural bias + equipment cost (halved for cavalry)

- upkeep represents the amount of training received (their tier)
- cultural bias represent the focus of a certain culture's military, meaning some units were easier to train
- equipment cost represents armour + shield + weapons (and mount for cavalry)

2) unit statistics should be put at higher average level, instead of 5,6,7,8,9 points of attack and defense points in teens, we should have attacks calibrated at teens, and defense in 20's or 30's, lethality should be adjusted as well (well, 1 HP or 2 HP will affect missile attack rates and lethality, obviously)

No, just no.
Higher attack stats would make the game faster and reduce importance of experience while ridicolously high defence makes the shielded side significantly more vulnerable than the unshielded one, which is unrealistic.

Lethality is set to keep the combat pace slower than XGM 1hp but still faster than EB.

3) cost steps for levies, militias, semi-regulars/feudal troops, professionals, and elites, also affect upkeep steps, of course, for similar performances, levies are cheaper than professionals, but levies and professionals will have different morale values.

Done by the tiering system and modifiers.

4) bodyguard costs will be more "reasonable" compared to their overall numbers and performances, especially in custom battles.

Bodyguard costs are not part of the balancing system and the game is not balanced for custom battles yet.
If you're looking at costs there you will notice they are significantly different than campaign ones.

5) And I want to tweak unit numbers for such.
- levy to regular infantry = 60
- superrior grade infantry = 50
- elite grade infantry = 40
- levy to regular cavalry = 30
- supperior grade cavalry = 25
- elite grade cavalry = 20
- bodyguard = half numbers of their respective ranks (regular cavalry BG will have 15 men, while supperior have 12 men and elite cavalry BG will have 10 men)

Again, no thanks.
Stack balance is decided by cost and upkeep (and player preference of course!) and historically elites were the units kept at full strength rather than the opposite.
In XC trying to keep an elite heavy army is severely punished by heavy upkeep and logistics, making them a rather unwise choice.

6) differentiations between weapons and their attack rates ; note : this is taken from a mod we're working ... explainations in PM

Weapons are differentiated by lethality, I would however like to know your criteria for delay amounts.

7) defensive stats:

8) armour values:
cost is calculated per points, but each body equipments will have their own additions, to the base armour of 3. (still need to be differentiated)

I already stated what I think of high defence values.
I don't like the concept of "base" armour as it is unrealistic (and missile precision already takes care of diluting volley lethality) plus that's what a shield is for.
Also note that 90% of XC units have at least an helmet so unarmoured units are not exactly common and for everything else your light cavalry should be out there taking care of enemy missile units.

I could consider raising shield values but it needs to be carefully evaluated against missile units for balance, note that the aim is realism rather than balance and we keep missile ranges shorter than other mods as since RTW has no missile penetration model we give a range over which an arrow or a bullet would be as effective as the attack stats says.

9) unit role bonus/penalties
- melee units will obviously got discount on morale, missile units got less

Missile units are penalized in melee and most gets additional penalties against cavalry.

10) culture bonus/penalties
- not as big as before, but may really differentiate the overall faction's rooster average
- we're not differentiating on attacks, rather a point of defense skills, stamina bonus, morale points, or somethings.

That is already set this way:

- barbs gets slightly stronger atk and def to compensate for missing tier 5 and generally lower armour
- greek gets +1def
- roman gets +1 morale
- eastern +1 attack
- sabeans gets +1 atk and +2 mrl to compensate lack of true elites
- carthaginians gets more equipment + easy access to barb units
- ptolemies gets greek bonus on hellenic units + barb bonus on many auxiliaries

last but not least: the cost balancing is meant for the campaign, custom battles are a different ballpark.

[Spike]

The principle for good cavalry use is charge, disengage and repeat, but always remember that outside the steppes cavalry was a support arm, not a battle-winner in itself.
If you think cavalry is useless under AI control try fighting the sarmatians of tocharian rebel stacks, you will get severely bruised to say the least.

of course we all know HA's are overpowered in RTW, what I meant are more common skirmisher/melee cavalries.

and yeah, outside steppe, cavalry is support arm, but they doesn't meant to be nigh-useless even in ai hands, it's kinda anti-climatic to see Makedon (greek) AI cavalry get slaughtered by hastati in guard mode

[Total Roach]

of course we all know HA's are overpowered in RTW, what I meant are more common skirmisher/melee cavalries.

and yeah, outside steppe, cavalry is support arm, but they doesn't meant to be nigh-useless even in ai hands, it's kinda anti-climatic to see Makedon (greek) AI cavalry get slaughtered by hastati in guard mode

I'm not sure how bad you mean the cavalry is, the Macedonian Cavalry unit (begins with a X?) Took on my 2 GCS General's bodyguards and was giving them a severe thrashing before I had to rescue them with Spartans.

The normal cavalry in all my XC games has felt fine

[Zarax]

of course we all know HA's are overpowered in RTW, what I meant are more common skirmisher/melee cavalries.

and yeah, outside steppe, cavalry is support arm, but they doesn't meant to be nigh-useless even in ai hands, it's kinda anti-climatic to see Makedon (greek) AI cavalry get slaughtered by hastati in guard mode

I beg to differ.
I just ran a few tests and they are a pretty close match, determined by how smart AI manages to be.

Hastati (player, guard mode, fire at will) vs Politikoi (AI). Grassy flatland M/M

Worst outcome: AI outranged me with missiles and then charged straight away. Result: Crushing defeat with 94 kills for AI and 30 for me.

Average outcome: AI outranged me with missiles but I manage to let two volleys before their charge. Result: Close victories with kills ranging between 40-50 for me and 60-70 for AI.

Best outcome: AI outranged me with missiles but then it delays the charge allowing me to empty all ammo. Result: Clear victory with AI running away early due to early losses and both loosing between 20 and 30 men.

Imho it's not a bad outcome considering that we're talking about the lightest macedonian cavalry, meant for skirmisher hunting or harassing at best. Taking into account that going melee against an unit double their size is something even AI does out of desperation I cannot say Hastati crushes cavalry.

Results will of course change with experience and terrain but imho it's a fair fight between the two.

[Pinkie Pie]

Is it possible he has battles on easy?

[Zarax]

It's likely that he's got a good general and his hastati got a couple chevrons, which would make the odds change significantly.

[Apollyon]

The only problem the AI usually has with Cavalry is that they charge and then do not pull away, resulting in a protracted combat most cavalry are not suited for.

In short, its AI stupidity. Little/nothing can be done about it.

[Total Roach]

The only problem the AI usually has with Cavalry is that they charge and then do not pull away, resulting in a protracted combat most cavalry are not suited for.

In short, its AI stupidity. Little/nothing can be done about it.

I have to disagree with you somewhat on this, whilst sometimes the AI cav does get stuck in melee so will your own unless you are constantly pressing the mouse button for it to move away. As for the AI cav I get charged with rinse and repeat often.

It maybe an idea to keep watch on the behaviours of AI cav during battles and see how much of a difference there is according to the General commanding, as I suspect that Captains and low ranked Generals are responsible for the worst cav performances.

[Spike]

Is it possible he has battles on easy?

actually, it's medium (I know playing on hard will fix this) and some of those cavs aren't politikoi, but heavy cavalry varieties.

It's likely that he's got a good general and his hastati got a couple chevrons, which would make the odds change significantly.

nope, it's just a line made up of bout 10 hastati, guard mode, fire at will, and leave to have some snacks, in the end, got win. (huge unit size)

[Zarax]

actually, it's medium (I know playing on hard will fix this) and some of those cavs aren't politikoi, but heavy cavalry varieties.



nope, it's just a line made up of bout 10 hastati, guard mode, fire at will, and leave to have some snacks, in the end, got win. (huge unit size)

I will run some more tests but politikoi already show it's about 50/50.
I think you had a few cases of exceptional AI stupidity.

BTW, there is a grand total of 2 instances of cavalry defeating roman infantry by itself in our timeframe and both involved kataphracts and/or HA.
Macedonians were afraid enough of them to not engage as shown at Pydna.

EDIT: Balance tests are done 1vs1, a line of 10 hastati on huge negates pretty much any cavalry advantage.

[Spike]

EDIT: Balance tests are done 1vs1, a line of 10 hastati on huge negates pretty much any cavalry advantage.

that's why I said cavalry needs to be stronger in this mod campaign battles aren't one unit vs one unit, you know

[Zarax]

You keep forgetting that this is historically accurate.
Aside from companions/xystophoroi or similar level units no cavalry should engage an unbroken line of medium/heavy infantry.

Heck, even Alexander's famed companions looked for gaps before charging against a much weaker infantry.

[Spike]

You keep forgetting that this is historically accurate.
Aside from companions/xystophoroi or similar level units no cavalry should engage an unbroken line of medium/heavy infantry.

Heck, even Alexander's famed companions looked for gaps before charging against a much weaker infantry.

and you neglect that it is the battle AI, no matter how useless, is the one you face on campaign battles, not fellow human players and I doubt it's historically accurate if massive host of makedonian cavalry, alongside of some pikemen that outnumbers (15 cav with 4 pikemen and general ; vs 1 general 10 hastati) with mostly weak, fresh from italy (well, 2 of them has silver chevrons if memory serves me right - and I place them at the far right as usual), roman hastati, in totally flat ground, can't win... despite the roman general just order his men to stand in a line, guard mode, fire at will, and... go for snacks.

weak cavalry means while they're still useful tools on human players, this renders the AI crippled in that section of battle.

against unbroken line of infantry, alexander use repeated charges of light cavalry and javelins to bait and broke enemy ranks before his heavy cavalry team do the final job. That means, at least you should make cavalry being more surviveable, increasing their defense, so the AI can still make proper rinse and repeat things without HA

[Zarax]

Alexander used skirmishing feints, not charges to create gaps.
If you watched the battles you'd also have seen that it's not h2h that gives hastati the edge but the fact that AI let them shower cavalry with volley after volley of pilums.
No amount of defence can change that.

If you want to discuss balance please provide statistic and historical examples, heavy cavalry is still borderline overpowered even in the hands of AI.

EDIT: not to mention that stronger cavalry would make them even more overpowered in human hands.