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Thread: Two Pence from a long time TW player

  1. #1

    Default Two Pence from a long time TW player

    Hello to all at TWCenter after 4+years of being away!

    I am coming back to drop my slightly delayed criticism's of this version and hopefully add one more candle to the ever-growing darkness of Video Game "Business".

    First and foremost, I have played every single iteration of TW to date. This may be one of the problems. The genre is getting stale, guys. As excited as I was to get STW2 when it released, I couldn't get a couple of turns in without feeling like I had already done this 1000 times before, literally. I simply COULD NOT get into it, even though I really liked the art style and music. The campaign map was very pleasing to the eye as well. I just couldn't ignore that I was using the same units I have used over the last 10 years+ with a different skin any more. The game was shelved...

    Until about a week or two ago, I fired it up on an impulse and delved into the SP campaign, maybe it was the mood I was in at the time, but for some reason I was able to get sucked into the world again. Even though, to be honest, there isn't much fluff here to get you feeling like you are a really a daimyo, but I digress, the basic fundamentals from the TW games sucked me in and I was getting my ass handed to me on a silver platter playing as the Uesugi on Hard. This is where the game is fun for me. Figuring out how to beat this, losing multiple times in multiple ways is always encouraging to me, because it gives me hope that this time, the AI will build the right units, will move his armies properly, etc.

    I thoroughly enjoyed the "learning process" all over again, and am very happy that I picked Uesugi/Hard as my first campaign, because any other Clan would have likely been easier to figure out. I imagine if I would have picked Date first, I wouldn't have gotten as much enjoyment out of it unless I forced myself to give the AI a handicap.

    Here is where I hope I can leave a glimmer, nay, a smidge of hope that will hopefully get this game going on the track that I want it.

    Here is the deal CA, your combat and battles, no one does it better, you guys have it licked. Arthur is clearly a rip-off of your mechanic, but you guys still own it, and it is great. OBVIOUSLY, the AI needs improvement, but I don't expect Big Blue type action, just not self-defeating AI, sadly, this is still the case in a lot of the Total War Games released to date. The computer simply does DUMB stuff, not stuff that just isn't optimal, but moronic, turn away from the TV, cringe-worthingly bad moves.

    Please make this a priority. A lot of people really enjoy the SP in this game, but ask them and the majority will tell you that they RARELY ever finish long campaigns when they know they have clearly won. I think you tried to fix this with Realm Divide here, but to mixed results. The challenge isn't there, and when the challenge feels gimmicky, it doesn't work for me.

    The AI should be playing as if it doesn't know it's playing in a game against a human, it should be smart enough to play on its own and go after its own goals. When the AI treats the human player differently, it really breaks immersion. The game can be made challenging without forcing the AI to act as if it is a "computer" opponent. You can find this criticism of the recently released Civ 5 as well.

    Please add a bit more flavor in your games, some fluff, as mentioned earlier. King Arthur nailed this and that is why that game which is basically Total War with MORE FLUFF (TM, copyright, etc) actually brought an unknown developer some notoriety and more importantly, dollars and ho's.

    Why weren't people simply firing up Total War to get this fix? The fluff.

    You can also steal some stuff from the Europa Universalis series. A great strategy game with none of the sweet Total War battles, just number crunching in the background, but it really sucks you in, you feel like you are leading a country and care about its progress.

    My other major gripe and this was already stated in another thread. I decided to purchase this game so I could get into the Multiplayer. After seeing some vids online, my interest was piqued.

    I was really disappointed in the lobby (no back button), there were like 5 people in chat, all AFK. I was matched against rank 10 in my first fight. Who disconnected on me because I actually was about to win the damn thing. This brought back all the terror and horror I remember from the first Shogun game, if you were around back then I had a couple accounts in the top 5, Joe Montana was one, can't remember the others, but my point is that you guys still haven't fixed that. I seriously cried inside a little, quickly followed up by kicking a kitten.

    I am sure MP is a tiny fraction of the playerbase and thus garners the appropriate allocation of funds, but you must take into consideration that these players are a part of your HARDCORE base, if you treat them to skittles and sunshine they will follow you forever. One big misconception that people have is that people simply wouldn't be interested in MP just out of General Purpose anyway due to their nature, and thus not worth it to get it right, that is wrong! Multiplayer is the one way to GUARUNTEE funds are incoming and not outgoing through thepiratebay!! If you build it, they will come!! I promise you.

    Shore these up for me please, and only do it in the next week and then we are all good again, ok CA! Just kidding, Good Luck, and hopefully this didn't come off as too condescending.
    Last edited by Fuzzynut; June 23, 2011 at 07:02 AM.

  2. #2
    GeoEng's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Two Pence from a long time TW player

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzynut View Post
    quickly followed up by kicking a kitten.
    You really did that? Shame on you. I can only imagine what you would do if/when you played vanilla Empire when it was released. Probably a kitten massacre or something.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Two Pence from a long time TW player

    Quote Originally Posted by GeoEng View Post
    You really did that? Shame on you. I can only imagine what you would do if/when you played vanilla Empire when it was released. Probably a kitten massacre or something.
    When I say kick I mean love with extra hugs!

  4. #4
    GeoEng's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Two Pence from a long time TW player

    That's more like it. Regarding your real issue, I can see where you're coming from. I agree that the game has a lot of issues and I know that many won't be fixed, but I think the series is still the best of its genre. MP has serious problems with plug-pulling (which I think is not only steam/sega/CA's fault but also an attitude problem on behalf of a number of players who only play for their stats (as if it matters if you have a 99.99% record or a 50%). I myself was pretty disappointed with ETW and never bothered buying NTW, but I still clocked around 220 hours in SP. Will they ever achieve the kind of strategy game many of us dream about? Probably not, but it still is a fun series for me.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Two Pence from a long time TW player

    You have an excellent point, which is why I have a hard time REALLY coming down on CA and the Franchise and want to stress that I do enjoy the idea and the series, but it needs to flesh some things out and fix some of what I consider silly and reprehensible errors in their game.

    The issue with the pulling has been going on from the very first Shogun! In almost exactly the same fashion! I know they can always get new gamers as the old ones become jaded and keep rehashing the same thing ad nauseum for twenty years, and you will still get people coming in saying they enjoy it, that wouldn't surprise me one bit. It wouldn't surprise me if I was still able to get into it, because the fundamental gameplay is sound and is the ONLY reason that Creative Assembly is even around. None of these games could stand on their own without the battles, NONE, zero. That is a shame, because you would consider that to be the technically easier part of the game to pull off when compared to the battles.

  6. #6
    GeoEng's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Two Pence from a long time TW player

    Well, I'm no programmer, so can't really help you here. But I agree that the battles are what made this franchise. And for me it is mellee combat that they have to focus on. Having guys stand 50 meters apart and shoot each other to pieces is not enjoyable.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Two Pence from a long time TW player

    For me, so far I have enjoyed all TW series games, especially SHogun I and II, I just can't get enough of it. I must also admit the reason I enjoy STW so much is because I'm a huge fun of samurai and Japanese Sengoku history.
    I must also point out MP is a pain for me like you said. I played only 3 MP battles, they ALL PULL THE PLUG on me. That was enough for me to stop playing MP till CA can come up with a working fix.

  8. #8
    GeoEng's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Two Pence from a long time TW player

    Well, I guess you were really unlucky. Most players are not plug-pullers. Some of the incidents may actually be connectivity issues or something. MP is really worth it and you should give it another try. There's nothing like going against a human player.

  9. #9
    wolfbane751's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Two Pence from a long time TW player

    lol whenever i play MP i almost always lose but i dont care i just like to see what my color scheme on my troops are and try to get armour sets for my avatar but i dont really try in MP its to laggy for me whenever i play a battle i always get delays so SP is a big thing for me i love unmoded single player cuz its actually a chalenge i used darthmod for a uesugi campaign on very hard and it was just to easy for my tastes so i went back to unmodded shogun 2 and tryed a hard campaign as the takeda and got back stabbed by the hojo i think overall the game is pretty good if you canget past the bugs and ctd's

  10. #10
    CraigTW's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Two Pence from a long time TW player

    First up, welcome back to the series! Nice post, thanks for taking the time to write down your thoughts.

    It's not often I get the chance to pop into one of these threads and say thank you, but believe me, we really appreciate feedback - the more detailed the better. There are some complex issues raised in your thread, which we're always looking at. With every incarnation we set a goal to make it the best Total War to date. That's something time can only really give us perspective on, but we really went for it with Shogun 2 and it was emotional for some of the guys to get to work on a sequel to a title that has such hallowed status in the series.

    As for the feedback, it all gets taken on board - and this post is no exception
    Last edited by CraigTW; June 23, 2011 at 10:11 AM.

  11. #11
    GeoEng's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Two Pence from a long time TW player

    Let me first say that it is really nice and heartening to see a member of the developers takes an interest in the opinion of the community (not just now, since I've seen your other posts as well). I'm sure there are people here with nice ideas and suggestions on how to improve the games (current and future titles).
    My two cents for you:
    Fix the siege bug (it really ruins my SP game) and do something for the MP clan campaign (huge clans that dominate the map due to sheer numbers is ruining the fan for everyone - huge clans excluded of course). Connectivity/plug-pulling/drop hacking or whatever you want to call, I don't expect to be fixed for this instalment and I don't mind actually. Shame on them. I still get to enjoy the game with the non-cheaters I battle against.
    For the next instalment in the TW series. Stick with spear, sword and bow and forget firearms. This is where the fun is. Hand to hand battle. I think that Rome 2 with a working and fixed MP will be just epic.

    Regards

    GeoEng

  12. #12
    SlartyBartfast's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Two Pence from a long time TW player

    Quote Originally Posted by CraigTW View Post
    First up, welcome back to the series! Nice post, thanks for taking the time to write down your thoughts.

    It's not often I get the chance to pop into one of these threads and say thank you, but believe me, we really appreciate feedback - the more detailed the better. There are some complex issues raised in your thread, which we're always looking at. With every incarnation we set a goal to make it the best Total War to date. That's something time can only really give us perspective on, but we really went for it with Shogun 2 and it was emotional for some of the guys to get to work on a sequel to a title that has such hallowed status in the series.

    As for the feedback, it all gets taken on board - and this post is no exception

    Craig, we're not worthy. But while you're here, I'd just like to shout out for a couple of eensy-weensy tiny little things:

    The game needs more realism. Like in the old days, right, when a great general conquered a new city, his reward would be a bevy of buxom wenches; yet beyond the german screeching women, sarmatian virgin archers, and bare-breasted indian archers (who all looked pretty much the same I might add) I've never won a single woman, despite tens of thousands of glorious victories! So, I just thought it might be a good idea if you could implement a reward system, wherein I the general conquer a major city and you the developers send around some women to my place--oh, you know, a couple of office girls, say, and your girlfriend, just for example--just so long as she's good peasant stock with strong thighs, firm buttocks, and large breasts. None of this skinny nonsense. And in return for such a reward, we the players promise we'll be gentle with her (but only so gentle as can be expected in the heady throes of victory!) Thanking you in advance, Craig.

    Oh yeah, I almost forgot: Also, I was just wondering if you've got any jobs going there at Creative Assembly, preferably a high-paying one. I'm really awesome, you know; I can do absolutely anything, I never shut up, and I know everything too--I'm a real team member! So be a sport and give me a job, eh, and together we'll silence all these critics of your games.


    Oh, and one last thing before I go:

    Don't you guys change anything. Just keep doing what you're doing; you are getting better every time. I don't play any other game. Everything else fades in comparison to Total War. In terms of replayability, and in terms of a thoughtful person's enjoyment needs, Total War has everything I need. Cheers! Oh, and please bring back the general camera view.

    (I'll tell your girlfriend I said "Hello.")
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  13. #13
    GeoEng's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Two Pence from a long time TW player

    Quote Originally Posted by SlartyBartfast View Post
    Craig, we're not worthy. But while you're here, I'd just like to shout out for a couple of eensy-weensy tiny little things:

    The game needs more realism. Like in the old days, right, when a great general conquered a new city, his reward would be a bevy of buxom wenches; yet beyond the german screeching women, sarmatian virgin archers, and bare-breasted indian archers (who all looked pretty much the same I might add) I've never won a single woman, despite tens of thousands of glorious victories! So, I just thought it might be a good idea if you could implement a reward system, wherein I the general conquer a major city and you the developers send around some women to my place--oh, you know, a couple of office girls, say, and your girlfriend, just for example--just so long as she's good peasant stock with strong thighs, firm buttocks, and large breasts. None of this skinny nonsense. And in return for such a reward, we the players promise we'll be gentle with her (but only so gentle as can be expected in the heady throes of victory!) Thanking you in advance, Craig.
    I second that. A nice DLC idea btw. Conquer cities and have your beauty-full geishas and/or hot peasant girls enter your retainers. With pics please. I'd buy that.
    And for Rome 2 (least we forget ourselves) you can add roman, greek, gaul, persian, numidian, german etc etc beauties for our viewing pleasure.
    And if you want to be politically correct you can add some hunks for every Budica or Amazon there is, or even a Patroclus for the Achilles style of general or maybe a Hephaestion for Alexander fans (along with Roxanne). That could be a Special Edition Total War. Rome 2: Total War (XXX Edition).

  14. #14
    Chyeaaaa111's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Two Pence from a long time TW player

    I would agree with the OP except I am still not sick of M2 after countless hours (well over 1000). I still play SS all the time and once the version of TATW is released I will most definitely play that for hundreds of hours.

    There's just the "it" factor CA has lost ever since they have transfered over to the Warscape engine. I rarely enjoy playing battles on this engine, while I almost never autoresolved a battle in M2 or RTW.
    If you like the picture of my woman, GIVE ME REP!!!!

  15. #15

    Default Re: Two Pence from a long time TW player

    Thanks for the response.

    Let me clarify some things and expand a bit since you showed some interest.

    This iteration is great, and depending on your favorite era, could be the best one yet. You guys have definitely NOT gone the Bioware or EA route with your game yet, and I am happy for you that you can say this. There is most certainly nothing glaringly bad about the game like some previous iterations (*cough* the 2h bug that sent me packing for 4 years*)

    I stated that the challenge wasn't there in my OP. This came off as a contradiction, as I clearly stated that Uesugi/Hard was roflstomping me back to Rome: TW, if you know what I mean! Let me clarify, that I have switched to using darthmod and the all in one mod after beating that Uesugi campaign, I am hearing these make the game easier so I may not have a full grasp on the actual difficulty of the game.

    I am sure I could ramp it up to VH, but large boons for the AI always rub me the wrong way for some reason so I can't get into playing at that high a difficulty. I have always found that at the highest difficulties you are typically "gaming" the system in some way to win and isn't really satisfying anyway so typically play one notch above Normal in Shogun 2.

    The Total War Series also suffers from something I call "one and done". This means, that upon beating the campaign once, I will almost NEVER lose another campaign unless I try something intentionally to make it harder for me. I wish I had a suggestion, but I am blanking at the moment.

    This doesn't mean that I lose enjoyment, there are tons of MODS and there is the multiplayer component, which I may have harped on, but I think its a lovely step in the right direction for the series to add the Avatar Conquest as an option. Gives you a little RPG fix while playing which is nice. I would like retainers to be more like cards you can trade or something like that though, but I digress that is hindsight and is probably TOO specific for this, the retainers are definitely interesting and add complexity, which is always welcome. Even though, honestly, I haven't played but about 10 games of AQ so can't comment too much about them, but they did get me to purchase the game.

    You guys did a good job with the ability trees, notice I said good, not great. This needs more fleshing out and I am sure you guys are working on that. I felt like a large portion of the tress were semi-useless, especially for your agents. I also felt like the Technology trees need some serious work. Like, who gets excited about +1 happiness for all your provinces? I never had an issue with revolts if I paid any kind of attention to it. Those kinds of things.

    Ok, and one last thing. THE FLUFF!! I am not talking about fire-breathing squirrels and wizards, or anything like that, but now that I think about it.....
    I am speaking more about things like Random Events, More Complex Missions, let the AI and the game acknowledge my triumphs and defeats more in flavor-texts from different AI or something. "Man, you really crushed that army, can we tag along with your forces and gain some experience while we help you?" Just stupid stuff like that, it seems insignificant, but I can't tell you how many homers I hit in MLB 11 The Show, they have about 10 canned responses. But god, I loved to hear the commentators talking about how scared the pitchers were of me when I stepped into the box. I think you get the idea.

    Thanks again, and if you read all this as well, then they aren't paying you enough man!
    Last edited by Fuzzynut; June 23, 2011 at 06:15 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Two Pence from a long time TW player

    Craig if all posts are really taken into consideration, then I would like my monks have the ability to summon Genma from onimusha. I am not joking I think this would be awesome. and samanosuke could be the katana hero it would be amazing.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Two Pence from a long time TW player

    Moved to Player Reviews.
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