Varys and Littlefinger (spoilers... well, kind of)

[khatmar]

I was always wondering, who does Varys truly serve? Is it Dany? Is he somehow preparing Westeros for her arrival? Causing distability and chaos (more or less)? Or is he truly a devoted man to the Realm, as he says. Trying to make sure that there is peace, people are safe and he doesnt give damn who is king as long as there is no fighting?

And Petyr. We learn in the course of the books that he is only serving his ambition, but still, how far can it go? He will be a king if he keeps this pace (regarding the Feast for Crows).
My question regarding him is, why did he betray Ned afterall? Why did Varys do nothing when he knew - and lets face it, he must have known that Janos Slynt was on Petyrs payroll - about the treason with Ned? If his goal would have been stability of the realm, what more could he have done that to support Neds task? So, if Petyr betrayed Lord Eddard just because he is greedy (and yes, we know he is ), he is still supposed to be super-smart-all-knowing (or at least as far as scheming goes).

My two questions

- Why did Varys and Petyr did nothing to help stabilize the realm during/after Neds revealing that Joffs a bastard?

- What is the exact difference between Lord Varys and Petyr Baelish?

[Rizedt]

I've always looked at Varys as trying to protect the "realm" meaning the average citizen of Westeros.

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That explains, to me, some of the things that he does. Instead of let Ned Stark accuse Cersei of incest and cause strife through Renly helping him out, he decided to keep the king in power to provide stability to the realm for the little people. Yes, there are holes in this theory. Varys sometimes seems to do the opposite thing that would be best for the "realm," but.....

Baelish, he's only out for himself and I believe his goal has always been and will always be more power. I'd go with Baelish as a godfather type figure, out for power, while Varys is more like the godfather's consigliare. I'm not sure Varys would know what to do if he was in control in the public eye, even though he is clearly in control behind the scenes.

[HannibalExMachina]

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varys conspires with the likes of illyrio, which makes him either a targaryen loyalist or someone in league with the free cities. perhaps he seeks his advantage in getting the targs back, or conspiring with an old bud from the east. bealish plays the game of thrones to get to the top. he thrives on chaos, which made him lord paramount of the riverlands and protector of the vale, so his motivation seems clear to me.

on the difference:

LF seeks power for himself, either as puppetmaster or even king.
varys, an outlander and eunuch, can never rule himself - he isnt even a man by westerosi standards (or any standards in asoif). as long as the rulers need him, his existance is save. thus, he will always make sure the powerful need him.

[Iguanaonastick]

Easy choice.

With Littlefinger you know you'll be screwed over. With Varys there's a small chance he'll actually help.


Spoilers, but really only for book 1/season 1

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Anyway, I suspect Varys is a Targaryen loyalist. He was plotting with Illyrio, after all.

As for stability, I think Varys -was- trying to achieve that. He was convincing Ned to confess and take the Black. If he had, with Sansa marrying Joff and Arya being sent back north, a peace with the Starks would have been possible. As for not helping Ned... Ned wasn't helping stability either. His way would have resulted in a major civil war between Stannis and the Lannister loyalists. Varys probably thought that without Stark support Stannis would not have the power to start a war.

Littlefinger on the other hand deliberately kept Ned Stark from going back home and probably played a big role in starting the entire war. He wanted chaos so he could seize more power.

[HannibalExMachina]

this may indeed be the point:

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LF creates chaos to advance his cause. varys seeks a peace of his making. he cant acquire personal power, so he tries to establish a regime which needs him.

[AlecTrevelyan006]

this may indeed be the point:

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LF creates chaos to advance his cause. varys seeks a peace of his making. he cant acquire personal power, so he tries to establish a regime which needs him.

I agree with this.

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Littlefinger thrives on chaos. In times of chaos, everybody else is at a disadvantage, but he is at his most manipulative. His best chance of advancement is in chaos. I'm not sure he even wants to sit the Throne as king, he just wants the power... I think he'd ultimately like to be the Hand behind the puppet on the throne.

Varys has repeatedly stated he wants peace. Now, he could be lying, he is deceptive, but I think he means it. Of course, I think he enjoys having power, but I think he genuinely believes that a Targaryen monarch (perhaps with well placed advisors) is better for the kingdom's commonfolk in the long run. In the mean time, he wanted Ned to go with the Renly plan or something to avoid bloodshed. When that wasn't going to work out, he wanted Ned to be sent to the wall to end the fight between Lannister and Stark and minimize bloodshed, simultaneously undermining the Baratheon claim and weakening that potential threat. And objectively... the realm seems to have been a lot better off under the Targaryens. Yeah, the Mad King kinda ruined it, and there were definitely problems, but the kingdoms need a strong centralized leader to hold them together or they'll constantly be fighting with each other like they were before the Targaryens came.

Littlefinger wants chaos. Varys wants order.

[Jaime Goldenhand]

Ive always liked to think that Littlefinger actually does care about Sansa and wants her to become queen and help her. If Littlefinger actually cared about you like a godfather should then he would be my choice

[Double A]

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Petyr betrayed Ned because Ned backed Stannis, who isn't nearly as bad a ruler as Cersei is. Littlefinger wanted to make the kingdom implode, and that's exactly what Cersei did.

I'd choose Littlefinger. I'd be a loyal stoic guard, which is one of the few kinds of men Petyr doesn't tend to send to early graves. He's so awesome I'd want to shut the hell up so I can see the ending.

[Iguanaonastick]

Goldenhand:

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Yes. Littlefinger "cares" about Sansa. Because she looks like a young Catelyn and he's thinking that if he couldn't have the mother then by the gods he'll have the daughter. Who is 14 years old. No, having Littlefinger care for me like that wouldn't comfort me at all.

[AlecTrevelyan006]

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Petyr betrayed Ned because Ned backed Stannis, who isn't nearly as bad a ruler as Cersei is. Littlefinger wanted to make the kingdom implode, and that's exactly what Cersei did.

I'd choose Littlefinger. I'd be a loyal stoic guard, which is one of the few kinds of men Petyr doesn't tend to send to early graves. He's so awesome I'd want to shut the hell up so I can see the ending.

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He also knew that Stannis wouldn't reward him for loyalty. Stannis was the end of Littlefinger's chance of promotion. Hell, he wouldn't even have been thankful to Ned if Ned gave him the throne.

[khatmar]

this may indeed be the point:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

LF creates chaos to advance his cause. varys seeks a peace of his making. he cant acquire personal power, so he tries to establish a regime which needs him.

Aye, so far this is my theory as well. They are each others polar opposites, while they both struggle to achieve the same end (kind of) but with absolutely different techniques.

As far as Varys plotting with Ilyrio goes... I didnt think it was them in the books, cause it never said such. Only in the series it was clear that it was them. In the book I though it was just some random conspiring that Arya stumbled upon and it made clear that Kings Landing is swarming with traitors and such. And anyhow... do you think it was truly Ilyrio? Because it took the whole story of A Clash of Kings for Selmy to travel from Westeros to The Free Cities, while there was a chapter with those two conspiring and then another, back in Ilyrios house, when he was selling Dany to Drogo. (Im talking about the book, not the series)

[Jaime Goldenhand]

I can't remember where it is but I am pretty sure Martin has confirmed that was indeed Illyrio and Varys

[Iguanaonastick]

Yes, it was fairly clear if you compared the characters' descriptions from Dany's chapters and Eddard's chapters. Arya just didn't know it was them, so from her point of view they just seemed like random strangers. It's a pity that this kind of unreliable narrator is hard to translate to the TV screen.

As for travel time, the Free Cities are just across the Narrow Sea, which as the name suggests is narrow. Barristan travelled all the way to Qarth, which is on the other side of the Red Wastes and ten times farther than the Free Cities. Exact distances are unclear but it's obvious that the eastern continent is much bigger than Westeros and Dany travels halfway across it.

To make it a real-world analogy: If Westeros is England, the Free Cities are in France. Dany was somewhere in Turkey. (Increase scale by a factor 10 to get ASOIAF distances.)

[donions]

Littlefinger is the man! He's done everything in his power to destroy the current powers of the realm and created a huge power vacuum.

Correct me if im wrong, but it was LF's idea to have Jon Arynn killed, and to convince Lysa to hide in the Vale and stay out of the war he was about to start by writing to Catelyn that it was the Lannisters. Of course there were a couple other factors that led to war, but ultimately it was LF's doing. He's achieved so much of what he planned, without ever really putting himself in any danger.

Varys is still an unknown to me, he says he serves the realm, yet he conspired to have a Dothraki horde rape and pillage Westeros. Regardless of what is or isnt said in the books, they made it pretty clear in the show that it was Varys and Illyrio, and considering George Martin oversees the production of the show, I think it's safe to say that was his intentions.
But perhaps Varys was just serving as a spy, he didnt waste any time telling King Robert about Dany's child and sat in a meeting where they voted to have her killed.

Both of these men/sort of men are 2 of my favorite characters in the book and show. I think the HBO scenes with LF and Varys exchanging jousts are meant to show people that are new to the series who is really pulling the strings, but from talking with friends who dont kno the books, they are only really enjoyed by those of us that truly understand how powerful they are.

[cormagus77]

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I think Varys is the better godfather because although his allegiance is never really clear, he is the one who at least tries to keep the peace; Littlefinger walks over corpses to serve his personal goals...(edit: Though that might make him a good godfather in other terms...)

and if Varys says, he serves the realm, i think he really means it: To serve the realm doesn't necessarily mean to serve the current regent...
I'm not sure if he serves Danaeris... but considering the current regents in kings landing (Robert, Jeoffrey, and Tommen/Cersei don't really do whats good for the realm) he probably has got few other "crownables" to support, who might do whats good for the realm... maybe only Stannis and Danaeris!

[Heart of Madness]

Let me be clear and concise:

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Varys has no balls.

[cormagus77]

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Let me be clear and concise:
Varys has no balls.

well, he wouldn't necessarily need balls to be a good godfather. brains and a little bit of moral integrity are sufficient enough for me! And Littlefinger seems to have more balls than brains and even less morality...

[Jaime Goldenhand]

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well, he wouldn't necessarily need balls to be a good godfather. brains and a little bit of moral integrity are sufficient enough for me! And Littlefinger seems to have more balls than brains and even less morality...

How does littlefinger have more balls than brains? He is one of the smartest people in the whole book.

[khatmar]

I chose Varys, because despite his treacherous activities in the past, its possible that he may not pursue his own selfish interest. While LF always does. To me, it seems that Varys puts others before himself (so he can use them as tools, but still, those people have no idea they are being controlled and are happy in their "unknowing")

[HannibalExMachina]

LFs tools are clueless, too. and i daresay a man whose balls got cut off in childhood has hardly much potential for idealism.