Spears before charge

[Isack Citees]

Many of the models in this mod show javelins held under the shields of many units. Will these units later throw a javelin before charging?
Was this a common form of combat at the time?

[SigniferOne]

Initially, yes, those central-Italian units threw javelins before charge. Unfortunately that feature is bugged in Med2, so we're looking into whether it would be possible to enable it in some other way.

[Isack Citees]

Could you just give them low ammo? Say, 2 or 3 javelins that way you can manually order your units to throw and then engage. I personally would not find it to bothersome.

[mudang]

Very interesting mod, I've downloaded it and am conquering Latium as the romans

I have a question in regards to javelins so this thread seemed to be the right place to ask ..

1. The antesignani and the other skirmishers seem to throw their javelins piecemeal and in haphazard fashion so it takes some time before they can do meaningful damage. Charging them with line troops means that they have negiligible impact.

2. Skirmirshing also seems to not work properly. I've seen my skirmishers being charged and engaged without them making an attempt to get away. It seemed that they were too busy reloading their javelins to run for it so they ended up being drawn into hand to hand, which was sort of a surprise.

Combine 1 & 2 and that seems to make skirmishers poor at their traditional role, ie. stand before the main battle line and thin out the enemy before retreating behind their line when closed down.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents in regards to that .. Looking forward to the next patch.

[SigniferOne]

Did you get patch1? Javelin units are substantially improved there.

[mudang]

I did, but I haven't tested this extensively .. let me re-apply the patch and try a few custom battles between skirmishers and get back to you.

[SigniferOne]

In fact with patch1 the javelins are thrown in a single volley.

[Isack Citees]

Patch greatly improved skirmisher performance.

[mudang]

In fact with patch1 the javelins are thrown in a single volley.

Ok, I went back and tested it via a few skirmishes but I still don't get volleys per se .. the units go into 'reloading' & 'firing' modes, but the javelins come in a scattered fashion, eg. the most killed per 'volley' was about 10 enemy skirmishers which seems a little low.

Just to check, the patch1 exe should be installed to the M2TW base directory (which is what I did) rather than the mods directory or the P_096 directory right?

[SigniferOne]

Yes, thats the right path. The units should now throw their javelins haphazardly, but all arom together, wait until everyone is ready, and then throw together.

[DaVinci]

Ok, I went back and tested it via a few skirmishes but I still don't get volleys per se .. the units go into 'reloading' & 'firing' modes, but the javelins come in a scattered fashion, eg. the most killed per 'volley' was about 10 enemy skirmishers which seems a little low.

Just to check, the patch1 exe should be installed to the M2TW base directory (which is what I did) rather than the mods directory or the P_096 directory right?

Imo., such a kill rate is not too low, rather high if realism is considered.


Btw., to Signifier, didn't the IB2 project solve the issue with javellins/pila (the animation/model) for line infantry etc.?

[mudang]

Imo., such a kill rate is not too low, rather high if realism is considered.


Btw., to Signifier, didn't the IB2 project solve the issue with javellins/pila (the animation/model) for line infantry etc.?

Perhaps, but that was against skirmishers .. against line infantry it's lower, somewhere around 5 or so IIRC, before my skirmishers get charged and drawn into melee combat. Maybe RTW mods like RS2/EB have spoiled me to the usefulness of skirmisher javelins, but comparatively melee infantry and cavalry seem to have a far larger impact than skirmirshers do.

Anyway, just making a comment .. KUTGW, I'll be following this mod

[debux]

Btw., to Signifier, didn't the IB2 project solve the issue with javellins/pila (the animation/model) for line infantry etc.?

Sorry, tried finding it myself but couldn't. Can you please link me this? Or at least give me a hint?

[SigniferOne]

Maybe RTW mods like RS2/EB have spoiled me to the usefulness of skirmisher javelins

When properly installed, javelins inflict at least 10 damage which is more than most units' melee damage, and the unit is able to lob its volley and flee before the opponent reaches him, meaning that they can throw their javelins again. That seems pretty devastating to me.

[DaVinci]

Sorry, tried finding it myself but couldn't. Can you please link me this? Or at least give me a hint?

Actually it was mere a question to Signifier, out of my bad memory - i played IB2 few weeks or months after it had its first release (long, long time ago). I mean to remember line inf had pila/javelins. And i recently took a short look at some IB2 screenshots, i believe there are also such pics with throwing main infantry, just not skirmishers, but i could be completely wrong. I'm also very interested to getting historically equipped/behaving units in the PI2 mod, so i hope Signifier can clarify the point - anyways, if IB2 has them, then PI2 can have them, too, so i hope my memory is not completely wrong, i fear it is though

[SigniferOne]

The thing is, it's quite easy to enable javelin-throwing infantry. The command is still there from RTW, and the units even act properly by throwing a volley and then charging. The only problem comes during certain cirumstances, with a bug where these units can be completely immobilized, I mean they stand in an 'idle' position, while the opponent is cutting them down. Because of this bug, we've decided to temporarily disable the feature until we figure out a workaround.

[debux]

CA simply ignored this?

[DaVinci]

Thanks for clarification, Signifier. Hope you'll find a feasable solution.

CA simply ignored this?

Yes, strange. But M2TW/Kingdoms has just no main infantry with javelins

[debux]

Yes, strange. But M2TW/Kingdoms has just no main infantry with javelins

Yeah, I remember, but it didn't call my attention 'till classical era mods started to come out. It even made me wonder if it really happened that no-one in Europe threw javelins before charging, when it was almost global (in europe at least) to do this.

[Iguanaonastick]

Especially in the early middle ages most soldiers had some kind of missile. Darts, spears, axes, javelins... foot soldiers have always thrown stuff. Just look at the Bayeux tapestry, it's full of javelins flying to and fro.

The troops that didn't were close-combat specialists like hoplites or Swiss Pikemen. I imagine use of thrown weapons declined sharply in the later middle ages as infantry militias became more organised and armed with big two-handed weapons. That's just speculation though.

As for earlier periods, I think it's more a perception-thing. Hollywood doesn't show troops throwing stuff at eachother from behind shield-walls, it shows wild mêlée rushes and bloody hand-to-hand combat.

In ancient times CA couldn't skip the javelins because the Roman legionary pilum is such an iconic weapon but even there none of the Gallic or Germanic infantry carried them, nor were any of the heavy Greek javelinmen represented...