Misc. Battle Discussion

[Magic_8_Ball]

Created for the discussion of various things related to RSII MP. Seeing that this game is still very much fresh, I think there's a lot to be discovered as far as army builds go. I don't have much to talk about now, but if you do, post.

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

Good idea, anyone had problems with any particular match-up? For example Nomadic factions being particularly hard to beat with Romans or something similiar?

[Magic_8_Ball]

Are you guys using slingers to aid in the archer war? I've always saved them by putting them behind my line until the infantry fight happens, but I notice that most people don't do that. I'd rather save them to shoot at armored units than have them be depleted in numbers and ammo when I need them most.


I'm not sure about now, but in the past, I've also noticed that even if you have archer superiority, there is a tendency for archer wars to become more stale mates. A lot of the times, the player with superior archers will run out of ammo while the one with less and/or worse archers gets depleted number wise. Thus, nothing really happens. Unless you're using archers as an offensive force (e.g. skirmishing army), do you guys really think archer spamming is worthwhile? I find that the infantry fight determines a lot more on RS2 than on Vanilla, where cavalry and missiles seem to be more decisive.

http://www.xfire.com/video/3604ab/ <---That was on an older EDU, but as you can see, the archer war ended up reasonably close, even though I had a better archer force.

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

Are you guys using slingers to aid in the archer war? I've always saved them by putting them behind my line until the infantry fight happens, but I notice that most people don't do that. I'd rather save them to shoot at armored units than have them be depleted in numbers and ammo when I need them most.

I usually use slingers to target cataphract archers or to put stones in the back of hoplites/legionaries, also works pretty well frontally against slingers.

For Celtic and Germanic factions I sometimes use the slingers for the archer role though, since these factions regular archers have such a poor range and power.

[Magic_8_Ball]

How much did you nerf slings since I was playing, GI? My armies never work anymore. I just lost to a person who had at least 12 infantry units and my 4 slings didn't do jack against them. I'll link the replay to anybody else interested, but you'll just have to take my word for it since you can't run games right now. It was a Carthage vs Seleucid battle where my opponent did the multiple lines (kind of 31k style) setup with his infantry. My 7 Late Libyan Spears stood no chance against the massive infantry force, so I relied on my slings. However, they didn't do anything to turn the fight around.

Another "problem" I've found is one I've mentioned already. I bet you can bring 2 long range archers and just meat shield your opponent so that even if your opponent has more archers, he'll run out of ammo before anything happens. It seems that since the long range archers fire faster, they get rid of all their arrows before they can win the archer war, and even if they have a little ammo after archer exchange, it's not enough to do any remote damage against an infantry blob army.



http://www.mediafire.com/?m16fl20872n5it5 <--- Replay with slings

[DarthLazy]

Better archors should be given better armor then and more ammo, so they are actually worth investing in.

[-Stormrage-]

yes, i too feel like my slingers are not doing any decent damage agaisnt armored units, and people who play with me know. i ALWAYS move my slingers to the right of the battlefeild to attack the backs and sides of infantry, btw i had them at 2 chevrons. Please look into this and i think archers dont do much damage against what they are made to take out, lights infantry and light cavalry. You have to give them constant waves of arrows for them to die.

[-Stormrage-]

and some units have the effective "agasint armor" weapons and such in game, but it doesnt say anyhting in the unit card about being "effective against armor"

[DarthLazy]

It does not have to, they just need to have the "ap" attribute .

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

Yes however archers and slingers are very inexpensive now as well as is more historical, if you remember how it was before Magic the slingers were effective, but they were also even more expensive than heavy infantry. Take 2-3 of them behind enemy lines and focus fire on a general from behind, definately worth bringing.

It's also true that archer was will rarely end in complete knock out of eachother's archers, therefor it's actually better to use them as counter to lighter units as intended, they are still devestating for their price against certain units like Falxmen.

For taking out heavy blobs it's best to use the javeliner units, it's also worth noting that historically archers were not a big component in most of these armies, skirmishers was main ranged death dealers for non-Eastern factions.

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

Anyway I guess there are basicly 3 factions that should be able to do extensive archery damage. The Parthians (who got their Soghdian Armoured Arhcers and Cataphract Archers), the Scythians (Royal Archers, should be able to do it) and the Sarmatians (less sure about these, but they are kinda an underdog)

Other armies should as designed operate closer to their enemy with mainly short range missiles, except against barbarians where missiles have been proven effective against.

[DarthLazy]

GI, check the summer tourney thread in 5 minutes for any innacuracies.

[-Stormrage-]

Were complaining about how slingers arent doing any damage to armored units , and units that have "AP" weapons should say so in the unit card when selecting units. The unit should say Effective Against Armor in its card, So players now why 2 units have similar stats but one is more expensive then the other, its becuase one has an Armor Piercing Weapon.

Basically we would like for Slingers to cause a good amount of casualties. When facing off against an all heavy infantry army, we would like to see high casualties when sligners are firing at the backs of a blob of heavy armored infantry. Correct me if im wrong but thats not happening, maybe increase slingers lethality?

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

Were complaining about how slingers arent doing any damage to armored units , and units that have "AP" weapons should say so in the unit card when selecting units. The unit should say Effective Against Armor in its card, So players now why 2 units have similar stats but one is more expensive then the other, its becuase one has an Armor Piercing Weapon.

Basically we would like for Slingers to cause a good amount of casualties. When facing off against an all heavy infantry army, we would like to see high casualties when sligners are firing at the backs of a blob of heavy armored infantry. Correct me if im wrong but thats not happening, maybe increase slingers lethality?

Lethality is always 1 for ranged weapons, it's hard coded.

It's not possible to have all units with AP displayed as effective against armour, becuase unit card only checks primary weapon (except when it's a precursor weapon) when determining if a unit is displayed as effective against armour or not, so no it's not fixable in this mod or any other.

I know what you say about slingers, but I have used slingers with current stats with good effect against Roman armies in battle. With current stats they are able to take out half a unit of legionaries before running out of ammo if firing from behind, not bad for a unit the fraction of a price compared to a legionaire.

But if you want to prove that your point you should take pictures or make youtube film.

[Magic_8_Ball]

I see where you're coming from now. Still, I feel like an army of 12 infantry, 2 cavalry, 2 slings, and the rest on skirmishers would be obscenely overpowered, especially if the infantry have javelins. I still have to test something like this, though.

I kind of miss when I could take 4 slings, aim them at 1 unit from the front, and have the whole unit dead in moments. ^^

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

I see where you're coming from now. Still, I feel like an army of 12 infantry, 2 cavalry, 2 slings, and the rest on skirmishers would be obscenely overpowered, especially if the infantry have javelins. I still have to test something like this, though.

I kind of miss when I could take 4 slings, aim them at 1 unit from the front, and have the whole unit dead in moments. ^^

It's true that is a very powerful army, but on the other hand an army of just cavalry and archers are instead overpowered in vanilla.

Ideal army is probably something like 8 heavy infantry, 2-3 spearmen, 3-6 cavalry (some of these should definitely be of the light variety as these are very useful), 3-4 skirmishers and 3-5 archers/slingers.

[Magic_8_Ball]

Well I'm glad I made this thread now. Thanks for the help GI.

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

No problem Magic, you may be right about javelins being devestating though, I don't consider it an issue for units who just carry 1-3 javelins, but perhaps the ones with up to 6 javelins have to much firepower. What are people's opinion on this?

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

If it's true that skirmishers really are too devestating it's possible to reform them in a similiar way to how archers was reformed. This would limit their maximum damage potentional and make them more vurnable to missiles, an example:

Velites Now:

Attributes: sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, can_sap, very_hardy, can_swim
Ranged attack: 16
Melee attack: 7
Armor: 4
Defense Skill: 10
Shield: 4
Morale: 8, low discipline
Price: 360

Velites After:

Attributes: sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, can_sap, very_hardy, can_swim
Ranged attack: 14
Melee attack: 4
Armor: 3
Defense Skill: 9
Shield: 3
Morale: 5, low discipline
Price: 200

[DarthLazy]

Id like that, 300 for a skirmisher does not look reasonable.... Theyd better kill half a unit of heavies for that price.