Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: New book w/ legion shield designs

  1. #1
    Paladin247's Avatar Centurio
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    487
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default New book w/ legion shield designs

    Just today rec'd Legions of Rome-the Definitive History of Every Imperial Roman Legion by Stephen Dando-Collins, published in England last year. The price in the dust jacket is 35 Brit pounds, but I got mine new on Amazon for $40 including shipping.

    The subtitle is deceptive because a lot of the legions that served in the imperial years were raised beforehand and they are included in the book even tho technically not imperial.

    Have only spent three hrs or so w/ it, but so far I'm impressed. It has substantial pages dedicated to each legion's history plus detailed sections on organization, battles, etc. It's ~600 pages. The most interesting thing for me so far tho is the shield designs which are illustrated in color for all those which could be identified. I tried repeatedly tonight to scan those pages in, but for some reason my HP won't do it. I think it's an old HP vs. new Windows 7 problem. If I figure it out I'll add later.

    The striking thing is that only four of the designs bear any resemblance to what we think of as the standard shield emblem, the out speading lightning bolts. The author claims that this error has come down thru antiquity due to Trajan's Column where all the legionaries depicted carry this design or one slightly modified from same. The reason he attributes to this inaccuracy is that the only legionaries allowed within the precincts of Rome at the time of construction would have been Praetorians. The Praetorians did have the lightning/thunderbolt design on their shields and many Praetorian cohorts had a slightly different style of same. The sculptors of the column would have used Praetorians as models and assumed the whole army was fitted thusly. But what did they know of such military details? They were artists not legionaries and who else in Rome would know the difference save some relatively rare frontier veterans who would likely not have seen the column until completed? It makes some sense to me, but who knows.

    In any case, I'll try describing the shields for our RS2 legions absent my current scanning capability.

    Hammata

    I Germanica-red with the Pompeian Lion in gold holding a sword vertically in its right paw.
    II Augusta-gold w/ veritical red stripe, white currlicues in corners, white pegasus and antelope flanking boss.
    III Augusta-red w/ gold lion's head facing right.
    III Gallica-gold w/ white mer-unicorn atop boss and three white bulls below.
    V Alaudae-red w/ two gold elephants atop boss and three below.
    V Macedonica-gold w/ large grey bull
    VI Ferrata-same except bull is red
    VI Victrix PF-green w/ white bull
    VII Claudia PF-dark gray w/ red bull
    VIII Augusta- red w/ gold bull
    IX Hispana-dark gray w/ white bull
    X Gemina (Equestres)-gold w/ red bull
    XI Claudia PF-red w/ silver lightning bolts interspaced w/ tridents
    XIII Gemina-red w/ gold lion with starburst halo
    XIV Gemina-red w/ gold lightning bolts interspaced w/ eagle wings
    XV Appollinaris-red w/ large gold palm frond

    Segmentata

    I Minerva PF-white w/ multi-colored gorgon head
    I Adiutrix-gold w/ large white pegasus
    III Cyrenaica-gold w/ large white bearded head assumed to be Jupiter
    IV Sythica-gold w/ white bull
    IV Flavia Felix-gold w/ rampant red lion
    X Fretensis-red w/ white bull atop boss and bireme warship below
    XII Fulminata-gold w/ silver thunderbolts
    XIV Flavia Firma-none shown
    XX Valeria Victrix-red w/ three white arrows emerging atop boss and gold boar below
    XXI Rapax-gold w/ red vertical stripe and white boars flanking boss
    XXII Deotariana-gold w/ large red eagle
    XXII Primigenia-red w/ gold eagle
    Praetorian-light purple w/ gold thunderbolts interspaced w/ eagle wings.

    The predominance of bull designs the author accounts to the popularity of bulls and bull fighting in Spain even then. So legions raised there or which spent tours there adopted the emblem.

    He bases his designs on various sources, legions' specific coinage, coats of arms found on barrack lintels, grave stones, etc. As I said I'm only into this a few hours.

    I'm not campaigning for the dev group to effect these changes in some future patch. In fact most of the depictions are quite primitive compared to our more intricate designs. I probably prefer ours actually. I just found it interesting and thought some of you might as well.
    Last edited by Paladin247; June 11, 2011 at 06:09 AM.
    "With a population of around a million, Rome (in Claudius' time) was a vast city even by modern standards. It is worth pointing out that during the early Renaissance the population of Rome was no more than fifteen thousand-- living amid the ruins of a civilization that dwarfed their own. It was not until the nineteenth century that the population of Rome returned to the levels it had enjoyed under the Caesars. That is eloquent proof of the fact that human history is not a tale of steady progress towards greater knowledge and achievement." Simon Scarrow

  2. #2
    Miles
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    128
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: New book w/ legion shield designs

    Very interesting find. I love reading Dando-Collins' books on the legions.

  3. #3
    Paedric's Avatar RS local moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    3,288
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: New book w/ legion shield designs

    Please be careful with the scans as this is most likely some copyrighted materials.

    Otherwise, the book looks really interesting, thanks for sharing it.
    Under the patronage of apple.
    Patron of ybbon66.

  4. #4
    JEbach's Avatar Shashu
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    175
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: New book w/ legion shield designs

    I love reading Roman history books, I have 2 of them, one iscalled "The Roman Army" by Chris Mcnab, It has the history of the Army from the earliest Roman soldiers in 700B.C. Through the Republic, onto the Empire, And all the way to the very late/Medieval (Byzantine) Armies...Not to mention beautiful illustrations made by artists from Osprey Publishing (Angus Mcbride is my favorite).

    The second is called "Rome and Her Enemies" by/edited(?) Jane Penrose and this one has the history (and illustrations) of the militarys who fought the Romans (obviosuly) but I love these books because they are not just 1000pages worth of text but are littered with awsome illustrations! (can you tell I am a visual learner? ) Id suggest checking these books out as they are great additions to any Rome enthusiasts collection! Im also gonna look into getting a copy of your book as I would love to see an in depth look at every legion.

  5. #5
    ProvostGuard's Avatar Yari-hei
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    146
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: New book w/ legion shield designs

    I'd be a little wary with Dando-Collins. I haven't read any of his books, but some of the folks at RomanArmyTalk have criticized him for exaggerating and playing around with the facts (one even compared his works to historical fiction).

    I also found a review for Nero's Killing Machine: The True Story of Rome's Remarkable Fourteenth Legion, another one of Dando-Collins' works. The reviewer, evidently an archaeologist, complains that Dando-Collins doesn't quite meet the "minimum standards of accuracy" despite producing a readable book. He adds: "...Major assumptions about the continuity of the legions from the Republican period into Augustus' imperial army and about the nature of enlistment and discharge are made, without reference or argument, and apparently without the opinions of those quoted in the Select Bibliography being brought much into play..." He then explains how this leads to unresolved "idiosyncrasies" in his work.

    If you guys are interested in arms, armor, and overall appearance, I would recommend Peter Connolly's Greece and Rome at War as well as Raffael D'Amato's Arms and Armour of the Imperial Roman Soldier. They aren't perfect, but both books are lavishly illustrated with photographs/illustrations of ancient equipment, funerary steles, sculptures, etc. If you're willing to handle some dry details, Bishop & Coulston's Roman Military Equipment discusses what has actually been found archaeologically. Graham Sumner's Roman Military Dress is also excellent if you're interested in what Roman soldiers wore under their armor. And as the previous poster mentioned, The Roman Army is a good compilation of several Osprey titles.
    "How can you say, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?"

  6. #6
    JEbach's Avatar Shashu
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    175
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: New book w/ legion shield designs

    I dont mind historic fiction when it comes to things like graphic novels and whatnot but when it comes to a book that is supposed to be telling you facts about a certain thing it is just stupid to do that..

    And your right, they are actually both osprey books, I should have realized by the fact that the style of the illustrations in both books are quite similar (even though alot of them are done by different artists). I like these books because they are thick and instead of focusing heavily on 1 single aspect it includes alot of everything (equipment, historical facts, battle tactics, ect) and it also doesnt focus on just 1 period in the military's transition but all of them. Greece and Rome at war sounds cool as well as the Arms and Armour of the Imperial Roman Soldier, Ill hafto check them out
    Last edited by JEbach; June 11, 2011 at 07:07 PM.

  7. #7
    Murakawa
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    1
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: New book w/ legion shield designs

    This is a great book!!! Read it from front to back in a matter of 3 days.

  8. #8
    rory o'kane's Avatar Artifex
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    6,984
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: New book w/ legion shield designs

    Yeah, but as other people have mentioned, he plays a little hard and loose with the facts, and occasionally gets his dates wrong - things like attributing the Antonine decree of 212 AD to Commodus instead of Caracalla. That sort of thing.
    'Ecce, Roma Surrectum!' Beta Tester and Historian
    Under the proud patronage of MarcusTullius

  9. #9
    Sandrus Castus's Avatar Sōkō yumi
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    792
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: New book w/ legion shield designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Paladin247 View Post
    In any case, I'll try describing the shields for our RS2 legions absent my current scanning capability.

    Hammata

    I Germanica-red with the Pompeian Lion in gold holding a sword vertically in its right paw.
    II Augusta-gold w/ veritical red stripe, white currlicues in corners, white pegasus and antelope flanking boss.
    III Augusta-red w/ gold lion's head facing right.
    III Gallica-gold w/ white mer-unicorn atop boss and three white bulls below.
    V Alaudae-red w/ two gold elephants atop boss and three below.
    V Macedonica-gold w/ large grey bull
    VI Ferrata-same except bull is red
    VI Victrix PF-green w/ white bull
    VII Claudia PF-dark gray w/ red bull
    VIII Augusta- red w/ gold bull
    IX Hispana-dark gray w/ white bull
    X Gemina (Equestres)-gold w/ red bull
    XI Claudia PF-red w/ silver lightning bolts interspaced w/ tridents
    XIII Gemina-red w/ gold lion with starburst halo
    XIV Gemina-red w/ gold lightning bolts interspaced w/ eagle wings
    XV Appollinaris-red w/ large gold palm frond

    Segmentata

    I Minerva PF-white w/ multi-colored gorgon head
    I Adiutrix-gold w/ large white pegasus
    III Cyrenaica-gold w/ large white bearded head assumed to be Jupiter
    IV Sythica-gold w/ white bull
    IV Flavia Felix-gold w/ rampant red lion
    X Fretensis-red w/ white bull atop boss and bireme warship below
    XII Fulminata-gold w/ silver thunderbolts
    XIV Flavia Firma-none shown
    XX Valeria Victrix-red w/ three white arrows emerging atop boss and gold boar below
    XXI Rapax-gold w/ red vertical stripe and white boars flanking boss
    XXII Deotariana-gold w/ large red eagle
    XXII Primigenia-red w/ gold eagle
    Praetorian-light purple w/ gold thunderbolts interspaced w/ eagle wings.

    The predominance of bull designs the author accounts to the popularity of bulls and bull fighting in Spain even then. So legions raised there or which spent tours there adopted the emblem.
    Sounds like bull-. Bullfights in Spain, come on... And how can he know the colours?


    Btw, @ProvostGuard: the member of Roman Army Talk is quite right.
    Last edited by Sandrus Castus; June 13, 2011 at 06:31 AM.
    Vale,
    T. Statilivs Castvs, Legio XI Clavdia Pia Fidelis
    Roman reenactor in Legio XI - www.legioxi.be
    Studying History at Ghent University


    Calliditas Honorqve

  10. #10
    rory o'kane's Avatar Artifex
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    6,984
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: New book w/ legion shield designs

    I'm not entirely sure he DOES claim to know the colours. Simply the patterns. The colours in the book are simply a suggestion of what they might have looked like .
    'Ecce, Roma Surrectum!' Beta Tester and Historian
    Under the proud patronage of MarcusTullius

  11. #11
    Kirā
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Co Kildare, Ireland
    Posts
    230
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: New book w/ legion shield designs

    Yeah it does seem that he doesnt quite know what he is talking about some of the time for example describing mail as having the rings interlinking with a leather backing.

    That said the shield designs seem to be reasonably well educated guesses, incorporatingwhat is known already about their legionary symbols.

    My reenactment group portraying Legio XX VV is going to replace our shield design with one based off the one in the book.
    It is certainly more accurate than the one the ermine street guard uses which it seems the RS II team have adopted for their impression.

  12. #12
    Space Wolves's Avatar Equites
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    SF. :(
    Posts
    3,966
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: New book w/ legion shield designs

    I'm tempted to buy and the wealth of information seems informative. But is it worth me spending 40$ on it? D: I need a nice read during summer school as its a bore where i am!

    20,284 Officers Lost in the Line of Duty as of 2010-12 this month- 124 this year
    Red: Suspect inflicted: Blue Accident
    Officer Christopher A Wilson: End of Watch 10/27/10: San Diego PD, CA
    Lt. Jose A Cordova Montaez: End of Watch 10/26/10: Pureto Rico PD
    Cpt. George Green: End of Watch 10/26/10: Oklahoma Highway PD
    Deputy Sheriff Odelle McDuffle Jr. 10/25/10: Liberty Country SD, Texas
    Officer John Abraham: End of Watch 10/25/10: Teaneck PD New Jersey
    Sgt. Timothy Prunty: End of Watch 10/24/10: Shreveport PD. Louisiana












  13. #13
    Sandrus Castus's Avatar Sōkō yumi
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    792
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: New book w/ legion shield designs

    No, there are way better authors than this one to spend your money on. Depends on what you are interested in of course.
    Vale,
    T. Statilivs Castvs, Legio XI Clavdia Pia Fidelis
    Roman reenactor in Legio XI - www.legioxi.be
    Studying History at Ghent University


    Calliditas Honorqve

  14. #14
    Space Wolves's Avatar Equites
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    SF. :(
    Posts
    3,966
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: New book w/ legion shield designs

    Alright. A Comprehensive guide on legions all or most with of course pictures, mostly due cause i like drawing. But i'll heed my spending until i can find something else i guess

    20,284 Officers Lost in the Line of Duty as of 2010-12 this month- 124 this year
    Red: Suspect inflicted: Blue Accident
    Officer Christopher A Wilson: End of Watch 10/27/10: San Diego PD, CA
    Lt. Jose A Cordova Montaez: End of Watch 10/26/10: Pureto Rico PD
    Cpt. George Green: End of Watch 10/26/10: Oklahoma Highway PD
    Deputy Sheriff Odelle McDuffle Jr. 10/25/10: Liberty Country SD, Texas
    Officer John Abraham: End of Watch 10/25/10: Teaneck PD New Jersey
    Sgt. Timothy Prunty: End of Watch 10/24/10: Shreveport PD. Louisiana












  15. #15
    Sandrus Castus's Avatar Sōkō yumi
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    792
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: New book w/ legion shield designs

    Specifically on clothing of the Romans soldier: Roman Military Dress by Grahamn Sumner. Available on Amazon for much less than $40. This is however only on clothing and somewhat specific..

    Greece and Rome at War by Peter Connolly is also very good, covers a long period and has a lot of maps and drawings (finds and reconstructions). It seems that there is a new version to be published. Also on Amazon within your price range (pre-order apparently, I didn't know they were publishing it again).
    Vale,
    T. Statilivs Castvs, Legio XI Clavdia Pia Fidelis
    Roman reenactor in Legio XI - www.legioxi.be
    Studying History at Ghent University


    Calliditas Honorqve

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •