OT: Very OT: Fantasy Armor

[Rizedt]

One of the topics that keeps popping up over and over in this thread is using HBO's armor in this mod, specifically using or not using the Lannister armor.

I am in full support of using only the armor inspired by the book, from the book.

However, I wanted to have a completely separate discussion.

I am an historian and as such I'm always bothered by inappropriateness in historical films/books.

I am much more lenient with Fantasy worlds, but what drives me nuts is when the weapons and armor that the fantasy worlds use are completely unrealistic.

For instance, the Lord of the Rings series killed me. Some of the armor, specifically the helms were completely impractical for battle.

The same rings true for HBO's Game of Thrones. The Lannisters in particular. Although the Starks armor may be the most ugly, it is rather more useful, even their Bascinet [sic] helmet would work better.

The swords seem to be pretty normal, but this has always bothered me. Even in a fantasy world, humans are humans and can still move and swing a sword like humans, making the Lannister helmets completely useless. Even the Kingsguard from the series look strange.

My two cents has been said and if you need to kill this thread, that's fine. Just wanted to put my two cents out.

[MagUidir]

i agree in the book the descriptions are more practical. they are just more elaborately done such as lion faced helms. i could see this over the uruki they have done on the hbo series!

[ShadowKiller2000]

Oh no, I hear what you are saying and agree 100%. The armor in the TV series is meant to catch the attention of viewers.

I love the armor in the books, and each region still has it's own feel without getting Lannister Samurai.

The North has plate armor, simple and un decorated (bastard of Bolton aside).....Jory and Robb's armor was not noted for decoration. The Lannisters have lion helms, and the southern knights armor is often decorated. Dorne is known for leather and mail among the sandy Dornish, and standard armor for the stony Dornish.

The Greyjoys seem to use plate for lords, like Victarion.......and a mix of mail and plate for the every day reavers.

It adds a nice flavor and most of the descriptions in the book seem highly possible. The TV series, not so much. I agree with the LOTR comments as well. Some of the armor was just plain weird, and not very well designed for battle.

I love the way the modders have approached the game so far and I look forward to seeing the game in action!

[Lynx54321]

To be honest the only real problems I have with the armour in the series is the ridiculous looking Lannister and Kingsguard helmets, everything else I can forgive. I actually quite like the Night Watch mixture of leather, mail and brigandine that we have seen so far. You really get the nature of the Nights Watch not messing around in comparison to the decorated plate of the South. The same can be said for the Winterfell soldiers seen so far.

GRRM usually gave pretty decent descriptions of the armour in the books although when he didn't its usually pretty clear that normal medieval style plate, mail or leather is standard. The makers of the show must of wanted the Lannister guardsmen to appear more sinister and different in comparison to the Winterfell equivalent, in my opinion the Lion helms would of been a far better choice than the Urak-Hai ones though.

May as well add in here one of the minor things that has annoyed me in the series so far is how some of the actors hold their swords, I am no expert but Bronn for example in the last episode, when confronted by the hillmen did just not look natural at all holding his sword out, the kukri was bad ass though.

[bitterhowl]

I can understand the look of Kingsguard helmets - they tryed to make stylized dragon crests and scales. But it looks unpracticial in real battle, i writed somewhere that it's probably a ceremonial armour. Now i see that it's their main equipment. That's poor. I think the mod should be based on the book lore.

[Lord_Berric]

I can understand the look of Kingsguard helmets - they tryed to make stylized dragon crests and scales. But it looks unpracticial in real battle, i writed somewhere that it's probably a ceremonial armour. Now i see that it's their main equipment. That's poor. I think the mod should be based on the book lore.

Thankfully, it would seem that this is the case. Honestly, I never gave the armor in the television series much thought, but now that you bring it up, the Lannister armor is a little over the top. It isnt that bad, though, is it?

[silvershot]

Armors in history weren't always made for practicality, even though they initially were, many were later modified with ornaments to strike fear into their enemies or for parade and burial purposes.

[Iguanaonastick]

Do the northmen wear plate in the books? I was under the distinct impression that

A] Plate armour proper doesn't exist in the setting, both because the technology level is too low and because Martin thinks the "knight in shining armour" look is boring compared to older armour.
B] The closest thing to it would be the knights from the Reach, who have the heaviest mail-and-plate. Other southerners sometimes also have armour like that, but the northerners don't. I'm pretty sure they just have mail armour.

Oh, and aren't the Dornish renowned for scale armour, not mail? Particularly copper or brass ones, polished to a high sheen?

[Highwayman]

From what i gather the Kingsguard armor isnt really designed for heavy battle they are palace guards and as such they must look pretty not practical so from that point of view they look fine to me.
But the lannisters on the other hand... they look cool but there armor is completely unpractical lol

[bitterhowl]

The Kingsguard is not only ceremonial guardians - they're accompany the King everywhere, especially in battle. We remeber, that only best of the best were honoured to wear white. So, i think they need a very good and practicial battle armour. In other case they're useless expendable material.

In our time - you understand the difference beteween Navy SEALs and honor guard of Queen of Great Britain?

[Edric Storm]

The Kingsguard is not only ceremonial guardians - they're accompany the King everywhere, especially in battle. We remeber, that only best of the best were honoured to wear white. So, i think they need a very good and practicial battle armour. In other case they're useless expendable material.

In our time - you understand the difference beteween Navy SEALs and honor guard of Queen of Great Britain?

The majority of the armour and uniforms for the HBO series do really blow, especially the Kingsguard the Lannisters and the Starks.

I've taken on the responsibility of skinning the unit roster for House Lannister and I can assure you I'll be following as close to the book and historical counterparts as possible.

These pieces look like they're a source of inspiration for the HBO Lannisters:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

By the way, what is the difference between Navy SEALs and the 'Honor Guard' of the Queen of England?

[Gurkhal]

The only amour in the show that so far has managed to freak me out has been the Lannister one. Its nice to know that the lions' amour in the mod rest in capable hands.

Strangely I never had suck a problem with the Kingsguard, I just thought their helmets looked wierd rather than horrific, as the Lannisters' do in the show.

[Murfmurf]

Nice find Ed!

Difference between Liz's guard and SEALS is I guess duty and regalia. Saying that, they're still the Coldstream Guards, and they only wear the bearskins and red jackets for ceremonial purposes. They're not special forces like the SAS, but I wouldn't pick a fight with one

[Edric Storm]

Nice find Ed!

Difference between Liz's guard and SEALS is I guess duty and regalia. Saying that, they're still the Coldstream Guards, and they only wear the bearskins and red jackets for ceremonial purposes. They're not special forces like the SAS, but I wouldn't pick a fight with one

How could you forget the Grenadier Guards?! :O
The guards aren't special forces, but they're elite heavy infantry and even have their own Airborne and Armoured Brigades. I'm not really sure what Bitterhowls comparison was for though, Lannister House Guard + Kings Guard?

[Iguanaonastick]

I like the Stark armour in the series. It looks a lot more practical than most.

Jorah's armour in this week's episode also looked good, though again more plate-like than the mail hauberks that almost everybody wears in the books. (Also, his duel with the Dothraki may be the first televised instance of an armoured warrior winning because he's wearing armour and the other guy isn't. Probably because that's the way the scene was written, in other fights there were some cases of paper-armour-syndrome.)

[Mithrandir the White]

Why dont just use the HBO armor, It looks super cool and thats what attracts most people. And it's easier because we have an example, if we use the book version we just have to guess!

[Kaiserin]

I think that amongst offenders in the way of ridiculous armor, the HBO series is guilty of misdemeanors at most. The only time I recall seeing full-plate was in the tourney, and you still get to see a lot of leather, brigandine, and the like, which allows things a more gritty feel instead of being overwhelmed by high fantasy designs.

From a a point of theater and cinematography, I think that the armor works well in the tv series. While impractical to those who have read up on the subject(a very small number of people mind you), they do well as costumes. House Stark comes from a hard place with little ostentation, and their armor shows that, they look rugged and practical. House Lannister has a grand reputation of wealth and sophistication, and it shows in their costumes and sets. The only time I recall seeing full-plate was in the tourney(on the Knight of Flowers), and you still get to see a lot of leather, brigandine, and the like, which allows things a more gritty feel instead of being overwhelmed by high fantasy designs. I think that whoever is in charge of costume direction should get a little credit for paying attention to context like that. After all, you don't see the lowly guards at Winterfell decked out in fancy plate armor or the like.

Personally, I think it's OKAY to represent film in this way, as it allows you to take information that would normally be written out explicitly and express it through visual cues. It wouldn't be entertaining as a tv show if all of these things were discussed at length on camera, you have to set things up and let people fill in the blanks.

The stuff about the palace guards can be explained via context, yes it's a stretch, but it's entertainment first. Also, believe it or nuts, ritual combat was a real thing. You can look at all sorts of cultures(granted, mostly non-western or pre-roman) to see many examples of people going for style over function. Feudal Japan for instance, their armor was very inadequate from a practical standpoint in many periods, but it scared the out of conscripts, which had a practicality all it's own.

All of that said, the mod is based on the books, and it follows that interpreting the armor in the books would be a better route to take than just biting off the series interpretation.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

Why dont just use the HBO armor, It looks super cool and thats what attracts most people. And it's easier because we have an example, if we use the book version we just have to guess!

Word.
But as the guy above me said is true, but again if every soldier had the same practical armour, but with a little change of color, ( Just like in Witcher II).
its quickly gets confusing and boring!

[Edric Storm]

I really like the armour and uniforms in the Witcher II. I also very much dislike the visual style of armour they've used for the Lannisters in the HBO series.

I can safely guarantee that the Lannisters in this mod won't be having any of that HBO armour. Infact, I'd refrain from using any visual reference from the HBO series where costumes and armour are concerned.

[Jaime Goldenhand]

I really like the armour and uniforms in the Witcher II. I also very much dislike the visual style of armour they've used for the Lannisters in the HBO series.

I can safely guarantee that the Lannisters in this mod won't be having any of that HBO armour. Infact, I'd refrain from using any visual reference from the HBO series where costumes and armour are concerned.

Thank you I wholeheartedly agree