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Thread: USS Liberty Incident

  1. #21
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    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    So I'm supposed to ignore the discrepancies in the official story just because Israel is good and dandy? Is that what logic dictates?




    The first link is a collection of sources and not a source of its own. It posts witness accounts. reports and more on the issue.
    By the logic you have no state should open investigations and interview witnesses as they're pretty much garbage. Witness accounts, especially when they're soldiers, are very important.




    You have the lead jet pilot, Yiftah Spector, of the incident circling the ship twice to check its ownership.

    Here is the link of transmission transcript from Hatzor air control that directs two helicopters to the ship.
    The helicopters identify the ship around 1312. Page 15.
    The control asks: "Roger, this is clear, did you clearly identify an American Flag?"
    No response from pilot on the transcript.
    The control asks: "We request that you make another pass and check once more if this is really an American flag."
    No response from pilot on the transcript.

    This is proof that they knew the ship was American.


    GTR:

    GTR stands for Auxiliary, General, Technical Research. It's the abbreviation given by US Navy to such ships.
    Just by the shape of it you can tell that it is a non-combatant vessel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adar View Post
    I think those links are a good example of how information can be misinterpreted.

    Even the official Israeli account states that USS Liberty was positively identified 06:00-10:00. The problem was that the identifications were removed from the plot board at 11:00 since USS Liberties position no longer was known.

    The IDF aircrafts then wrongly identified USS Liberty as the Destroyer which had been shelling Israeli villages villages around 11:24. This wrong identification was then supported by miscalculatings of the ships speed and American failure to communicate orders to move USS Liberty further away from the coast. This ment that the IDF saw a ship moving at high speed along the coast while the USS Liberty was a slow moving ship supposed to be moving west.

    To me this looks like a typical military screw up where positional information is lost and later observations are incorrect.

    This is a Black Swan Frigate used by the Egyptian Navy during the 1960s... Granted not a Destroyer but look at it...



    And this is an Egyptian Destroyer W and Z Class from the 1960s...



    For starters the USS Liberty didn't have any turrets on it... Something which would have been obvious after circling the ship twice. Not to mention the one mast on the frigate and destroyer and the three masts on the Liberty etc....

    Beginning about 2 p.m., the Liberty was attacked by several IAF aircraft, initially by two Mirage IIIs, employing cannon, rockets and bombs,[32] followed by two Dassault Mysteres carrying napalm. One napalm bomb hit the ship.[33] The leader of the Mirage formation identified the ship as a destroyer, mistaking the off-center fed parabolic antenna on its forecastle for a gun. The fact that the ship had Latin markings led IDF Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin to fear that the ship was Soviet; he ordered the planes and a three torpedo boat squadron that had been ordered into the area to withhold fire pending positive identification of the ship, and sent in two helicopters to search for survivors. These radio communications were recorded by Israel. The order also was recorded in the ship's log, although the commander of the torpedo boat squadron stated that he had not received it.[34]
    When the commander of torpedo boats could see the Liberty, he immediately realized the ship was not a destroyer or any type of warship capable of 30 knots (56 km/h) speed. He immediately ordered the attack stopped pending better identification "although this was difficult due to the billowing clouds of smoke that enveloped the vessel; only her bow, part of her bridge and the tip of her mast could be discerned." The commander attempted to signal the ship but got a reply asking him to identify himself. He also observed gun fire from the ship. He consulted an Israeli identification guide to Arab fleets and concluded the ship was the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir. Another of his boat captains reached the same conclusion.[35] Based on that identification, the gun fire and what he considered an evasive response to his signal, the commander ordered the attack to proceed.(ibid. p. 17)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Lib...nd_sea_attacks

    This is a bad joke...!

    They contact the Liberty... They're asked to identify themselves... The conclusion and the response of the commander of the torpedo boat is to keep firing!

    Hilarious...! (well not for the sailors on Liberty)
    Last edited by Getwulf; June 10, 2011 at 11:05 AM.
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  2. #22

    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    For starters the USS Liberty didn't have any turrets on it... Something which would have been obvious after circling the ship twice. Not to mention the one mast on the frigate and destroyer and the three masts on the Liberty etc....
    The planes did not circle the ship, the timeline doesn't allow for it, and all the witnesses on the USS Liberty agree the planes attacked immediately upon arriving. The story the pilots gave, or were ordered to give, is more than likely a fabrication to hide incompetence.

    If the Israeli's were trying to hide the fact that they knew it was a US ship all along, this fabrication makes no sense.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    The planes did not circle the ship, the timeline doesn't allow for it, and all the witnesses on the USS Liberty agree the planes attacked immediately upon arriving. The story the pilots gave, or were ordered to give, is more than likely a fabrication to hide incompetence.

    If the Israeli's were trying to hide the fact that they knew it was a US ship all along, this fabrication makes no sense.
    I'll take the pilot's word for it...

    Worse they were tracking the Liberty for some time...

    During the morning of the attack, early June 8, the ship was overflown by Israeli Air Force (IAF) aircraft including a Nord Noratlas "flying boxcar" and Mirage III jet fighters eight times.[21][22] At least some of those flybys were from a close range.[23] At about 5:45 a.m. Sinai time (GMT +2), reports were first received at Israeli Central Coastal Command (CCC) about the Liberty, identified by pilots as a destroyer and the vessel was placed on the plot board using a red marker, indicating an unknown vessel. At 6:03 a.m. that morning, the Nord identified the ship as a U.S. supply ship, though the marker was only changed from the red 'unknown ship' to a green 'neutral ship' at 9 a.m., when CCC was ordered to do so after naval command inquired as to the marker's status. Also around 9 a.m. an Israeli jet reported that a ship north of Arish had opened fire on him after he tried to identify the vessel, resulting in naval command dispatching two destroyers to investigate. These destroyers returned to previous positions at 9:40 a.m. after doubts emerged during debriefing over the pilot's claim of receiving fire. When the Nord landed and its naval observer was debriefed, the ship was further identified as the USS Liberty based on its "GTR-5" markings.[24] Many Liberty crewmen gave testimony that one of the aircraft flew so close to Liberty that its propellers rattled the deck plating of the ship, and the pilots waved to the crew of Liberty, and the crewmen waved back.[25] The ship was removed from CCC's plot board at 11 am, due to its positional information being stale.[26]
    To continue the story...

    At 11:24 a.m., the Central Coastal Command received the first of several reports that Arish on the Sinai coast was being shelled from the sea, and half an hour later sent three torpedo boats to investigate. This was near the Liberty's position. Investigative journalist James Bamford points out that Liberty had only four .50 caliber machine guns mounted on her decks and, thus, could not have shelled the land.[27]
    At 1:41 p.m., the torpedo boats detected a target "20 miles northwest of El Arish and 14 miles off the coast of Bardawil"[1] on their radar.[28] The Combat Information Center officer on the torpedo boat Division flagship, "Ensign Yifrach Aharon, reported that the target had been detected at a range of 22 miles, that her speed had been tracked for a few minutes, after which he had determined that the target was moving westward at a speed of 30 knots. These data were forwarded to the Fleet Operations Control Center."[28]
    The speed of the target was significant because it indicated that the target was a combat vessel.[28] "The Chief of Naval Operations asked the torpedo boat Division to double-check their calculations."[28] "A few minutes later, the Division Commander reported that the target, now 17 miles from him, was moving at a speed of 28 knots" on a different heading.[29] "Since the Division was cruising at the same speed as the target, and therefore could not intercept it the Division commander requested that IAF planes be dispatched."[28] Bamford, however, points out that the Liberty's top speed was far, far below 28 knots. His sources say that at the time of the attack the Liberty was following its signal-intercept mission course along the northern Sinai coast, at about 5 knots speed.[27]
    At 1:48 p.m., the Chief of Naval Operations requested dispatch of IAF fighter aircraft to the ship's location.[30] Two Mirage III type aircraft arrived at the ship at about 2:00 p.m.[28] The formation leader, Captain Iftach Spector, reported the vessel appeared like some type of non-Israeli warship.[28] Authorization to attack was issued by the chief air controller, Lieutenant Colonel Shmuel Kislev, immediately after a recorded exchange between a command headquarters weapons systems officer, one of the air controllers, and the chief air controller questioning a possible American presence.[31]
    [edit] Air and sea attacks

    Beginning about 2 p.m., the Liberty was attacked by several IAF aircraft, initially by two Mirage IIIs, employing cannon, rockets and bombs,[32] followed by two Dassault Mysteres carrying napalm. One napalm bomb hit the ship.[33] The leader of the Mirage formation identified the ship as a destroyer, mistaking the off-center fed parabolic antenna on its forecastle for a gun. The fact that the ship had Latin markings led IDF Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin to fear that the ship was Soviet; he ordered the planes and a three torpedo boat squadron that had been ordered into the area to withhold fire pending positive identification of the ship, and sent in two helicopters to search for survivors. These radio communications were recorded by Israel. The order also was recorded in the ship's log, although the commander of the torpedo boat squadron stated that he had not received it.[34]
    I guess their policy is... "When you think that it might be a non-combatant American ally blow it up anyway!".
    Last edited by Getwulf; June 10, 2011 at 11:19 AM.
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  4. #24

    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    There's no doubt that the Liberty had been spotted some hours before the attack, but there is serious doubt that the attacking planes circled the ship as claimed.


    Effort for identification: The American crew claims the attacking aircraft did not make identification runs over Liberty, but rather began to strafe immediately. Israel claims several identification passes were made. The Naval Court of Enquiry, based on the Israeli timeline of events, found "One may infer from the fact that within a period of approximately 15 minutes, the request was transmitted (for aircraft to be dispatched), received, a command decision made, aircraft dispatched, and the attack launched, that no significant time was expended in an effort to identify the ship from the air before the attack was launched

  5. #25
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    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    I can't believe people are actually debating this. Why would Israel blow up an American warship? I mean, use your common sense! It's been investigated a million times, both Israel and the US have reached the conclusion that it was a mistake, because mistakes happen in war, especially with the techonology of 1967.
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    Walruses use their iconic long tusks for a variety of reasons, each of which makes their lives in the Arctic a bit easier. They use them to haul their enormous bodies out of frigid waters, thus their "tooth-walking" label, and to break breathing holes into ice from below. Their tusks, which are found on both males and females, can extend to about three feet (one meter), and are, in fact, large canine teeth, which grow throughout their lives. Male walruses, or bulls, also employ their tusks aggressively to maintain territory and, during mating season, to protect their harems of females, or cows.
    The walrus' other characteristic features are equally useful. As their favorite meals, particularly shellfish, are found near the dark ocean floor, walruses use their extremely sensitive whiskers, called mustacial vibrissae, as detection devices. Their blubbery bodies allow them to live comfortably in the Arctic region—walruses are capable of slowing their heartbeats in order to withstand the polar temperatures of the surrounding waters.
    The two subspecies of walrus are divided geographically. Atlantic walruses inhabit coastal areas from northeastern Canada to Greenland, while Pacific walruses inhabit the northern seas off Russia and Alaska, migrating seasonally from their southern range in the Bering Sea—where they are found on the pack ice in winter—to the Chukchi Sea. Female Pacific walruses give birth to calves during the spring migration north.
    Only Native Americans are currently allowed to hunt walruses, as the species' survival was threatened by past overhunting. Their tusks, oil, skin, and meat were so sought after in the 18th and 19th centuries that the walrus was hunted to extinction in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and around Sable Island, off the coast of Nova Scotia.

  6. #26

    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    there aren't friends or enemies in war, only allies of convenience.
    "we're way way pre-alpha and what that means is there is loads of features not just in terms of the graphics but also in terms of the combat and animations that actually aren't in the game yet.So the final game is actually gonna look way way better than this!” - James Russell, CA
    Just like the elephant animation, this Carthage scenario is actually in the game, it just has a small percantage factor for showing up, that's all...

    Beware of scoundrels



  7. #27
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    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    I reckon to dismiss this incident out of hand as mere accident is as foolish as swallowing the conspiracy hook line and sinker.
    Some pretty unusual goings on, and the Liberty Crew themselves have firm opinions on the matter that ought not be so casually dismissed. Especially not on the electronic warfare that went on during the attack, which is after all the business they were in.
    As to motives? Who knows! Political currents can run deep. The US nearly went on the Egyptians, which would not have been a bad thing for the Israelis.

    As for Israeli and Us investigations... read up on how reliable a history those have. Both rather famously prone for telling porkies to resolve any embarrassment.
    What I think happened? I'm rather unwilling to commit either way other then to say the whole thing was unusual in the extreme.
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    Are you saying the idea of a mistake in war is ludicrous? Mistakes have happend before, there is absolutely no reason for Israel to have attacked an American warship. They were at war with Egypt, they thought it was an Egyptian ship, so they attacked it. Crazy, right? Anyway, it was nearly half a century ago, as I said Israel has apologised thousands of times for that mistake, can't conspiracy nuts just let it go?
    A member of the Most Ancient, Puissant and Honourable Society of Silly Old Duffers
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    Both male and female walruses have tusks and have been observed using these overgrown teeth to help pull themselves out of the water.

    The mustached and long-tusked walrus is most often found near the Arctic Circle, lying on the ice with hundreds of companions. These marine mammals are extremely sociable, prone to loudly bellowing and snorting at one another, but are aggressive during mating season. With wrinkled brown and pink hides, walruses are distinguished by their long white tusks, grizzly whiskers, flat flipper, and bodies full of blubber.
    Walruses use their iconic long tusks for a variety of reasons, each of which makes their lives in the Arctic a bit easier. They use them to haul their enormous bodies out of frigid waters, thus their "tooth-walking" label, and to break breathing holes into ice from below. Their tusks, which are found on both males and females, can extend to about three feet (one meter), and are, in fact, large canine teeth, which grow throughout their lives. Male walruses, or bulls, also employ their tusks aggressively to maintain territory and, during mating season, to protect their harems of females, or cows.
    The walrus' other characteristic features are equally useful. As their favorite meals, particularly shellfish, are found near the dark ocean floor, walruses use their extremely sensitive whiskers, called mustacial vibrissae, as detection devices. Their blubbery bodies allow them to live comfortably in the Arctic region—walruses are capable of slowing their heartbeats in order to withstand the polar temperatures of the surrounding waters.
    The two subspecies of walrus are divided geographically. Atlantic walruses inhabit coastal areas from northeastern Canada to Greenland, while Pacific walruses inhabit the northern seas off Russia and Alaska, migrating seasonally from their southern range in the Bering Sea—where they are found on the pack ice in winter—to the Chukchi Sea. Female Pacific walruses give birth to calves during the spring migration north.
    Only Native Americans are currently allowed to hunt walruses, as the species' survival was threatened by past overhunting. Their tusks, oil, skin, and meat were so sought after in the 18th and 19th centuries that the walrus was hunted to extinction in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and around Sable Island, off the coast of Nova Scotia.

  9. #29

    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    The planes did not circle the ship, the timeline doesn't allow for it, and all the witnesses on the USS Liberty agree the planes attacked immediately upon arriving. The story the pilots gave, or were ordered to give, is more than likely a fabrication to hide incompetence.

    If the Israeli's were trying to hide the fact that they knew it was a US ship all along, this fabrication makes no sense.
    So you're saying that testimonies by Israeli pilots and Israeli helicopter transmissions are all fake?


    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Goodguy1066♔ View Post
    I can't believe people are actually debating this. Why would Israel blow up an American warship? I mean, use your common sense! It's been investigated a million times, both Israel and the US have reached the conclusion that it was a mistake, because mistakes happen in war, especially with the techonology of 1967.
    I have to repeat my post that you didn't respond to:
    So I'm supposed to ignore the discrepancies in the official story just because Israel is good and dandy? Is that what logic dictates?
    If you can explain to me why I have to ignore cockpit transmissions and pilot testimonies then I might drop it.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; June 11, 2011 at 09:03 AM.
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  10. #30

    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    It was not the first time Israel tried doing black flag operations against its allies.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

  11. #31
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    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Goodguy1066♔ View Post
    Are you saying the idea of a mistake in war is ludicrous?
    No that is not what I have been saying at all. In fact I have been saying pretty much the opposite, that no rush to judgement should be made and that both possibilities merit consideration.
    Your failure to do so says much.
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  12. #32
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    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    I have to repeat my post that you didn't respond to:
    So I'm supposed to ignore the discrepancies in the official story just because Israel is good and dandy? Is that what logic dictates?
    If you can explain to me why I have to ignore cockpit transmissions and pilot testimonies then I might drop it.
    "Spector [the pilot] said the ship was assumed to be Egyptian, stating that: "I circled it twice and it did not fire on me. My assumption was that it was likely to open fire at me and nevertheless I slowed down and I looked and there was positively no flag."
    Shocking testimony. Truly revolutionary.
    It was a tragic and terrible mistake caused by a war panic and paranoia, there is no conspiracy, just drop it.
    A member of the Most Ancient, Puissant and Honourable Society of Silly Old Duffers
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    Both male and female walruses have tusks and have been observed using these overgrown teeth to help pull themselves out of the water.

    The mustached and long-tusked walrus is most often found near the Arctic Circle, lying on the ice with hundreds of companions. These marine mammals are extremely sociable, prone to loudly bellowing and snorting at one another, but are aggressive during mating season. With wrinkled brown and pink hides, walruses are distinguished by their long white tusks, grizzly whiskers, flat flipper, and bodies full of blubber.
    Walruses use their iconic long tusks for a variety of reasons, each of which makes their lives in the Arctic a bit easier. They use them to haul their enormous bodies out of frigid waters, thus their "tooth-walking" label, and to break breathing holes into ice from below. Their tusks, which are found on both males and females, can extend to about three feet (one meter), and are, in fact, large canine teeth, which grow throughout their lives. Male walruses, or bulls, also employ their tusks aggressively to maintain territory and, during mating season, to protect their harems of females, or cows.
    The walrus' other characteristic features are equally useful. As their favorite meals, particularly shellfish, are found near the dark ocean floor, walruses use their extremely sensitive whiskers, called mustacial vibrissae, as detection devices. Their blubbery bodies allow them to live comfortably in the Arctic region—walruses are capable of slowing their heartbeats in order to withstand the polar temperatures of the surrounding waters.
    The two subspecies of walrus are divided geographically. Atlantic walruses inhabit coastal areas from northeastern Canada to Greenland, while Pacific walruses inhabit the northern seas off Russia and Alaska, migrating seasonally from their southern range in the Bering Sea—where they are found on the pack ice in winter—to the Chukchi Sea. Female Pacific walruses give birth to calves during the spring migration north.
    Only Native Americans are currently allowed to hunt walruses, as the species' survival was threatened by past overhunting. Their tusks, oil, skin, and meat were so sought after in the 18th and 19th centuries that the walrus was hunted to extinction in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and around Sable Island, off the coast of Nova Scotia.

  13. #33

    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Goodguy1066♔ View Post
    "Spector [the pilot] said the ship was assumed to be Egyptian, stating that: "I circled it twice and it did not fire on me. My assumption was that it was likely to open fire at me and nevertheless I slowed down and I looked and there was positively no flag."
    Shocking testimony. Truly revolutionary.
    It was a tragic and terrible mistake caused by a war panic and paranoia, there is no conspiracy, just drop it.
    It's obvious that you're posting just because you don't wanna consider your nation doing wrong. Thanks for proving that as you can't even come up with a decent refutation.
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  14. #34
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    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmar View Post
    No that is not what I have been saying at all. In fact I have been saying pretty much the opposite, that no rush to judgement should be made and that both possibilities merit consideration.
    Your failure to do so says much.
    The idea of Israel openly attacking a US ship merits no consideration. Israel would have absolutely no reason to attack a US ship with it's own planes on purpose and then try to pass it off as an accident.
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  15. #35

    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    Quote Originally Posted by René Artois View Post
    The idea of Israel openly attacking a US ship merits no consideration. Israel would have absolutely no reason to attack a US ship with it's own planes on purpose and then try to pass it off as an accident.
    So, you're claiming that the Lavon Affair is a lie?
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  16. #36
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    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    This is a thread about the USS Liberty Incident, not the Lavon Affair.

    If the planes attacking the USS Liberty had been egyptian planes flown by Israeli pilots then it would be similar, unfortunately they weren't so it's not.
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  17. #37
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    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    It's obvious that you're posting just because you don't wanna consider your nation doing wrong. Thanks for proving that as you can't even come up with a decent refutation.
    What's your proof? The pilot said so? My refutation (didn't know that word, by the way, I learn something new every day) is that the pilot in fact opposes your far-fetched claim that Israel knowingly attacked an American ship.

    As for the Lavon affair, it was a stupid and desperate act of idiocy on behalf of our country, and our Minister of Defence resigned as a consequence. But just because our country commited this idiotic act once in 1954, it doesn't necessarily mean that they did it again, under a new PM and a new MoD and a different government, in 1967. Facts prove conspiracy theories, not reputation and past mistakes. The facts led two different investigation comitees to the same conclusion, that it was a case of mistaken identity and a consequence of war panic and human error. If you want to debate their findings, try harder.
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    Both male and female walruses have tusks and have been observed using these overgrown teeth to help pull themselves out of the water.

    The mustached and long-tusked walrus is most often found near the Arctic Circle, lying on the ice with hundreds of companions. These marine mammals are extremely sociable, prone to loudly bellowing and snorting at one another, but are aggressive during mating season. With wrinkled brown and pink hides, walruses are distinguished by their long white tusks, grizzly whiskers, flat flipper, and bodies full of blubber.
    Walruses use their iconic long tusks for a variety of reasons, each of which makes their lives in the Arctic a bit easier. They use them to haul their enormous bodies out of frigid waters, thus their "tooth-walking" label, and to break breathing holes into ice from below. Their tusks, which are found on both males and females, can extend to about three feet (one meter), and are, in fact, large canine teeth, which grow throughout their lives. Male walruses, or bulls, also employ their tusks aggressively to maintain territory and, during mating season, to protect their harems of females, or cows.
    The walrus' other characteristic features are equally useful. As their favorite meals, particularly shellfish, are found near the dark ocean floor, walruses use their extremely sensitive whiskers, called mustacial vibrissae, as detection devices. Their blubbery bodies allow them to live comfortably in the Arctic region—walruses are capable of slowing their heartbeats in order to withstand the polar temperatures of the surrounding waters.
    The two subspecies of walrus are divided geographically. Atlantic walruses inhabit coastal areas from northeastern Canada to Greenland, while Pacific walruses inhabit the northern seas off Russia and Alaska, migrating seasonally from their southern range in the Bering Sea—where they are found on the pack ice in winter—to the Chukchi Sea. Female Pacific walruses give birth to calves during the spring migration north.
    Only Native Americans are currently allowed to hunt walruses, as the species' survival was threatened by past overhunting. Their tusks, oil, skin, and meat were so sought after in the 18th and 19th centuries that the walrus was hunted to extinction in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and around Sable Island, off the coast of Nova Scotia.

  18. #38

    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Goodguy1066♔ View Post
    What's your proof? The pilot said so? My refutation (didn't know that word, by the way, I learn something new every day) is that the pilot in fact opposes your far-fetched claim that Israel knowingly attacked an American ship.
    I also posted cockpit transmission of helicopters sen to identify the ship minutes before the attack. Are you gonna dismiss that hearsay as well? At least it deserves suspicion and you can't even bare that.
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  19. #39
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    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    I also posted cockpit transmission of helicopters sent to identify the ship minutes before the attack.
    What does that prove? That the Israelis knew of a ship in close waters during an all out war against Egypt, Syria and Jordan (and others), that they had some sort of intelligence or suspicion that there's a chance it might be American, and then they chacked and did not see the flag and so went ahead to attack what they thought was an enemy ship. Poor intelligence, paranoia and perhaps even trigger-happiness caused this tragic mistake - but accusing Israel of attacking an American ship on purpose is a very serious accusation and especially after two different governmental investigations and the testimony of the pilot opposing your theory, you need solid facts on your side.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    Are you gonna dismiss that hearsay as well? At least it deserves suspicion and you can't even bare that.
    It might have deserved suspicion nearly half a century ago when the mistake was commited, but the case is closed, over and done with. The facts are known, the US army and government have come to the conclusion that it was a mistake, Israel has apologised for it, and the few who adamantly stick to the conspiracy that Israel purposefully attacked their greatest ally's ship in the Six Day war haven't got a leg to stand on.
    A member of the Most Ancient, Puissant and Honourable Society of Silly Old Duffers
    Secret Sig Content Box!

    Both male and female walruses have tusks and have been observed using these overgrown teeth to help pull themselves out of the water.

    The mustached and long-tusked walrus is most often found near the Arctic Circle, lying on the ice with hundreds of companions. These marine mammals are extremely sociable, prone to loudly bellowing and snorting at one another, but are aggressive during mating season. With wrinkled brown and pink hides, walruses are distinguished by their long white tusks, grizzly whiskers, flat flipper, and bodies full of blubber.
    Walruses use their iconic long tusks for a variety of reasons, each of which makes their lives in the Arctic a bit easier. They use them to haul their enormous bodies out of frigid waters, thus their "tooth-walking" label, and to break breathing holes into ice from below. Their tusks, which are found on both males and females, can extend to about three feet (one meter), and are, in fact, large canine teeth, which grow throughout their lives. Male walruses, or bulls, also employ their tusks aggressively to maintain territory and, during mating season, to protect their harems of females, or cows.
    The walrus' other characteristic features are equally useful. As their favorite meals, particularly shellfish, are found near the dark ocean floor, walruses use their extremely sensitive whiskers, called mustacial vibrissae, as detection devices. Their blubbery bodies allow them to live comfortably in the Arctic region—walruses are capable of slowing their heartbeats in order to withstand the polar temperatures of the surrounding waters.
    The two subspecies of walrus are divided geographically. Atlantic walruses inhabit coastal areas from northeastern Canada to Greenland, while Pacific walruses inhabit the northern seas off Russia and Alaska, migrating seasonally from their southern range in the Bering Sea—where they are found on the pack ice in winter—to the Chukchi Sea. Female Pacific walruses give birth to calves during the spring migration north.
    Only Native Americans are currently allowed to hunt walruses, as the species' survival was threatened by past overhunting. Their tusks, oil, skin, and meat were so sought after in the 18th and 19th centuries that the walrus was hunted to extinction in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and around Sable Island, off the coast of Nova Scotia.

  20. #40

    Default Re: USS Liberty Incident

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Goodguy1066♔ View Post
    What does that prove? That the Israelis knew of a ship in close waters during an all out war against Egypt, Syria and Jordan (and others), that they had some sort of intelligence or suspicion that there's a chance it might be American, and then they chacked and did not see the flag and so went ahead to attack what they thought was an enemy ship. Poor intelligence, paranoia and perhaps even trigger-happiness caused this tragic mistake - but accusing Israel of attacking an American ship on purpose is a very serious accusation and especially after two different governmental investigations and the testimony of the pilot opposing your theory, you need solid facts on your side.
    It proves that they actually identified the ship as American. The transmission actually asks the pilot to verify that he saw an American flag.

    I though the testimony of the pilot was not worthy yet you just mentioned it as a proof of your argument. Yet, he pilot testimony contradicts the official story.


    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Goodguy1066♔ View Post
    It might have deserved suspicion nearly half a century ago when the mistake was commited, but the case is closed, over and done with. The facts are known, the US army and government have come to the conclusion that it was a mistake, Israel has apologised for it, and the few who adamantly stick to the conspiracy that Israel purposefully attacked their greatest ally's ship in the Six Day war haven't got a leg to stand on.
    Way to ignore all the facts to cover it up. Your arguments only rely on ignorance of simple facts and discrepancies and are ridiculous.
    The Armenian Issue

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