USS Liberty Incident

[Vanoi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

I am very curious about this incident during the Six-Day War. It is said that Isreali aircraft and torpedo boats mistaken the USS Liberty for an Egyptian vessel and thats why they fired on it. Its been disputed though that this wasn't an accident, and there is no way the Isrealis couldn't have mistaken the boat for an Egyptian vessel. It said that the USS Liberty was clearly recognizable as a US ship, and during the attack the US flag was flying above the Us Liberty. I do not know what to believe though really. Personally even though i am no fan of Isreal, i don't think they would just attack us for no reason. I guess it could have been a mistake.

What do you guys think of the incident? Was it an accident or intentional?

[Border Patrol]

An accident, unless Israel was a fan of dying they wouldn't have knowingly attacked the United States.

Especially seeing as nothing was to be gained from the incident.

[Londinium]

Israel has little to no reason to attack it's largest benefactor. There's nothing in it other than a bad accident.

[Ahlerich]

i think its about time to retaliate

[MathiasOfAthens]

How exactly is it easy for Jets to recognize a tiny flag flying on the USS Liberty if they were already given the go-ahead to fire on a ship in those coordinates? Israelies were not flying Stukas now.

Besides 90 percent of all Israeli casualties comes from friendly fire... obviously thats not a factual statement but you get the point.

[legate]

I watched a documentary that said that Israel used unmarked fighters to attack the ship, with one side arguing that this is false while the other inculding former Israeli mossad agents saying that it was a false flag intended to draw the United States into attacking Egypt.

[legate]

Some random stuff I just searched:

Torpedo boats soon arrived and continued the attack, firing five torpedoes, with one hitting and killing 25 men. They then leisurely circled the defenseless ship for 40 minutes, pumping hundreds of 40mm, 20mm, and 50cal. rounds at wounded men on deck, stretcher bearers and fire fighters. Thinking the ship was about to sink, the crew threw life rafts over the side; the attackers machinegunned those too. With increased radio activity from the U.S. Sixth Fleet indicating an impending U.S. response (many of the Fleet's messages bore "Flash" precedence), the Israelis suddenly contacted the U.S. embassy and informed it of this "accident." It was probably the longest "accidental" attack in the history of naval warfare an hour and 15 minutes.

The radio jamming is by itself damning evidence that the assailants knew exactly whom they were attacking. Such jamming requires intimate advance knowledge of the target being jammed, obtained by extended monitoring of its signals. And this was selective jamming; it struck Liberty's frequencies and no others.

Immediately preceding the attack, an Israeli pilot recognized Liberty as a U.S. ship and radioed this information to IDF headquarters. He was instructed to attack anyway. This dialogue was intercepted at the U.S. embassy in Beirut. Former U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter revealed the existence of this intercept in 1991.

Finally, there is evidence, circumstantial but clear, of a relationship between the attack on the Liberty and a postponement of Israel's planned attack on the Golan Heights. The Golan attack was scheduled for 11:30 a.m. on 8 June; the Liberty was spotted by 6 a.m. or earlier; lastminute orders delayed the Golan attack; the Liberty was put out of commission; and the Golan attack occurred shortly thereafter. The vaunted IDF made very few mistakes in that war.

What was Israel's motive for this act? The scheduling of the Israeli assault on the Golan Heights for 8 June was a move to defeat an intense effort in the United Nations to halt the war, a ceasefire having been scheduled for 9 June. Such pressure was also being applied by the U.S. Government. The IDF leaders were under pressure to acquire the Golan before the ceasefire was imposed, preferably without being labeled the aggressor (as in 1956 when Israel had colluded with Britain and France to attack Egypt). But with all the pressure to attack Syria, and after all the hurried preparations to do so, the Golan attack was suddenly called off within hours of its scheduled commencement. Why? Obviously, someone in the IDF leadership feared the Liberty might intercept some of the many signals then filling the air that would expose Israel's preparations for invasion. They might then be forced into a ceasefire before they conquered the coveted territory.

[Nik]

And how much of that random stuff from the INTERWEBS (where you find tons of conspiracy theories, supposed true facts about 9/11 and proofs for aliens in area 51) is actually verifiable information brought forward by a credible source?

[PointOfViewGun]

And how much of that random stuff from the INTERWEBS (where you find tons of conspiracy theories, supposed true facts about 9/11 and proofs for aliens in area 51) is actually verifiable information brought forward by a credible source?

Such as this link? Or this?

I think, that when you are a pilot and you know there should be an enemy ship you are searching for some flag.There isn't simply time for it. Thats my opinion.

Regards Automatix

Except you have Israeli pilots giving interviews telling that they've circled the ship twice before attacking with the ship not firing at the plane. The ship has a big American flag and a huge "GTR" sign on both sides. Yet, the Israeli pilot, Yiftah Spector, claims that there was no flag.

[♔Goodguy1066♔]

and there is no way the Isrealis couldn't have mistaken the boat for an Egyptian vessel.

Yes they could. It was the '60s, it was war, mistakes happen and we've apologised a million times.

[Vanoi]

Yes they could. It was the '60s, it was war, mistakes happen and we've apologised a million times.

I was just saying some thigns from the wikipedia article, i still believe Isrealis wouldn't intentionally attack our ship. This also happens to be the longest accidentla naval attack in history with 1 hour and 15 minutes. Now I do find it odd that the Isrealis bombed the ship for over 1 hour and 15 minutes and didn't realize it was an American ship.

[white-wolf]

It can be an accident. It is easy to mistake. For example we Turks bombed our own two ships and sunk one at Cyprus, 1974.

[Automatix]

I think, that when you are a pilot and you know there should be an enemy ship you are searching for some flag.There isn't simply time for it. Thats my opinion.

Regards Automatix

[♔Goodguy1066♔]

Really, TDLS? You're into this conspiracy too? I know you don't like Israel, but you're a logical guy!

[legate]

Im not into this conspiracy I thought I would post some stuff thats around.

I believe that an ammo dump in the Siani was blown up and that Isreal suspected an Egyptian warship off the coast.

[PointOfViewGun]

Really, TDLS? You're into this conspiracy too? I know you don't like Israel, but you're a logical guy!

So I'm supposed to ignore the discrepancies in the official story just because Israel is good and dandy? Is that what logic dictates?

Yes, exactly such links.
the first is a webpage by a free hoster bringing up statements from witnesses who were in the midst of a surprising firefight from people they regarded as allies, alot of hearsay and no real evidence (at least what I saw from the first skimming over the page, correct me if I'm wrong). The second is again a collection of 40 year old recollection and hearsay.
Some of the witness claim the planes were not marked, other claim the planes had the david star on them.
Eye witness accounts in stressing and confusing situation tend to be unreliable, and this is a nice proof of that fact.
Prime Example of INTERWEB FACTS.

The first link is a collection of sources and not a source of its own. It posts witness accounts. reports and more on the issue.
By the logic you have no state should open investigations and interview witnesses as they're pretty much garbage. Witness accounts, especially when they're soldiers, are very important.

How big was that flag? was there wind so that it flew in the wind or was it hanging limply from its pole? How good can you discern a flag when flying 50 or 100 m overhead at speeds faster than 500km/h while piloting an aircraft?
What means GTR?
I don't know, and I'm pretty sure neither do you.
All the theories have something for them, but sphere summed it up nicely. Benefit vs Risk, and if you know how much ups like miscommunicated or fragmented orders, "oops, where did that thing go" and just "yeah yeah, do that" happen in hectic military situations, you ain't surprised that this could well be a "friendly fire" mishap of epic proportions.

You have the lead jet pilot, Yiftah Spector, of the incident circling the ship twice to check its ownership.

Here is the link of transmission transcript from Hatzor air control that directs two helicopters to the ship.
The helicopters identify the ship around 1312. Page 15.
The control asks: "Roger, this is clear, did you clearly identify an American Flag?"
No response from pilot on the transcript.
The control asks: "We request that you make another pass and check once more if this is really an American flag."
No response from pilot on the transcript.

This is proof that they knew the ship was American.


GTR:

GTR stands for Auxiliary, General, Technical Research. It's the abbreviation given by US Navy to such ships.

[Getwulf]

So I'm supposed to ignore the discrepancies in the official story just because Israel is good and dandy? Is that what logic dictates?




The first link is a collection of sources and not a source of its own. It posts witness accounts. reports and more on the issue.
By the logic you have no state should open investigations and interview witnesses as they're pretty much garbage. Witness accounts, especially when they're soldiers, are very important.




You have the lead jet pilot, Yiftah Spector, of the incident circling the ship twice to check its ownership.

Here is the link of transmission transcript from Hatzor air control that directs two helicopters to the ship.
The helicopters identify the ship around 1312. Page 15.
The control asks: "Roger, this is clear, did you clearly identify an American Flag?"
No response from pilot on the transcript.
The control asks: "We request that you make another pass and check once more if this is really an American flag."
No response from pilot on the transcript.

This is proof that they knew the ship was American.


GTR:

GTR stands for Auxiliary, General, Technical Research. It's the abbreviation given by US Navy to such ships.

Just by the shape of it you can tell that it is a non-combatant vessel.

I think those links are a good example of how information can be misinterpreted.

Even the official Israeli account states that USS Liberty was positively identified 06:00-10:00. The problem was that the identifications were removed from the plot board at 11:00 since USS Liberties position no longer was known.

The IDF aircrafts then wrongly identified USS Liberty as the Destroyer which had been shelling Israeli villages villages around 11:24. This wrong identification was then supported by miscalculatings of the ships speed and American failure to communicate orders to move USS Liberty further away from the coast. This ment that the IDF saw a ship moving at high speed along the coast while the USS Liberty was a slow moving ship supposed to be moving west.

To me this looks like a typical military screw up where positional information is lost and later observations are incorrect.

This is a Black Swan Frigate used by the Egyptian Navy during the 1960s... Granted not a Destroyer but look at it...



And this is an Egyptian Destroyer W and Z Class from the 1960s...



For starters the USS Liberty didn't have any turrets on it... Something which would have been obvious after circling the ship twice. Not to mention the one mast on the frigate and destroyer and the three masts on the Liberty etc....

Beginning about 2 p.m., the Liberty was attacked by several IAF aircraft, initially by two Mirage IIIs, employing cannon, rockets and bombs,[32] followed by two Dassault Mysteres carrying napalm. One napalm bomb hit the ship.[33] The leader of the Mirage formation identified the ship as a destroyer, mistaking the off-center fed parabolic antenna on its forecastle for a gun. The fact that the ship had Latin markings led IDF Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin to fear that the ship was Soviet; he ordered the planes and a three torpedo boat squadron that had been ordered into the area to withhold fire pending positive identification of the ship, and sent in two helicopters to search for survivors. These radio communications were recorded by Israel. The order also was recorded in the ship's log, although the commander of the torpedo boat squadron stated that he had not received it.[34]
When the commander of torpedo boats could see the Liberty, he immediately realized the ship was not a destroyer or any type of warship capable of 30 knots (56 km/h) speed. He immediately ordered the attack stopped pending better identification "although this was difficult due to the billowing clouds of smoke that enveloped the vessel; only her bow, part of her bridge and the tip of her mast could be discerned." The commander attempted to signal the ship but got a reply asking him to identify himself. He also observed gun fire from the ship. He consulted an Israeli identification guide to Arab fleets and concluded the ship was the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir. Another of his boat captains reached the same conclusion.[35] Based on that identification, the gun fire and what he considered an evasive response to his signal, the commander ordered the attack to proceed.(ibid. p. 17)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Lib...nd_sea_attacks

This is a bad joke...!

They contact the Liberty... They're asked to identify themselves... The conclusion and the response of the commander of the torpedo boat is to keep firing!

Hilarious...! (well not for the sailors on Liberty)

[Sphere]

It was most likely an accident, but the alternative theory of a deliberate attack is at least plausible.

The attack preceded action in Golan and agaisnt Egypt which the US might have objected to. Liberty was monitoring signals traffic which would have alerted US poltical leadership, which might then use diplomatic pressure to stop the Israeli advance before the objectives where met.

However, it doesn't quite add up in that the attack and possible sinking of a US Navy ship carried huge risk, far outweighing a little tiff over attacking Syria agaisnt US wishes. Such an idea would have been shot down early on, as risking breaking the alliance with the US would be gambling with the continued existence of Israel itself.

I think the simplest explanation is that attack aircraft and torpedo boats were launched with the pilots/sailors being told that they were intercepting an Egyptian ship. During the attack they probably noticed the US markings/flag, but when the ship has already been hit, and everyone around you is still firing on it you just go with the flow and assume somebody above your pay grade knows what is going on. After the fact the Israeli military might have tried to cover up anyone involved noticing the US markers, but that was an attempt to hide incompetence and prevent a diplomatic row more than anything else

[Nik]

Such as this link? Or this?

Yes, exactly such links.
the first is a webpage by a free hoster bringing up statements from witnesses who were in the midst of a surprising firefight from people they regarded as allies, alot of hearsay and no real evidence (at least what I saw from the first skimming over the page, correct me if I'm wrong). The second is again a collection of 40 year old recollection and hearsay.
Some of the witness claim the planes were not marked, other claim the planes had the david star on them.
Eye witness accounts in stressing and confusing situation tend to be unreliable, and this is a nice proof of that fact.
Prime Example of INTERWEB FACTS.

The ship has a big American flag and a huge "GTR" sign on both sides. Yet, the Israeli pilot, Yiftah Spector, claims that there was no flag.

How big was that flag? was there wind so that it flew in the wind or was it hanging limply from its pole? How good can you discern a flag when flying 50 or 100 m overhead at speeds faster than 500km/h while piloting an aircraft?
What means GTR?
I don't know, and I'm pretty sure neither do you.
All the theories have something for them, but sphere summed it up nicely. Benefit vs Risk, and if you know how much ups like miscommunicated or fragmented orders, "oops, where did that thing go" and just "yeah yeah, do that" happen in hectic military situations, you ain't surprised that this could well be a "friendly fire" mishap of epic proportions.

[René Artois]

28th March 2003 - American A-10s attack a British armoured column in Iraq, destroying 2 armoured vehicles which were marked with Union Flags, thermal reflectors and the other agreed coalition recognition markings, as well as being in a no engagement zone.

Yes accidents still happen. In the heat of combat, flying at very high speeds, and with incorrect intelligence leading to even more incorrect assumptions.