Dark Age Pagans

[Armatus]

We are looking for info on pagans of the dark age, beliefs, superstitions, rituals and general mythology (pre-viking age) 6th, 7th century CE to put a rough date on it.

[hellheaven1987]

There is a mod based on British Isles during Dark Age... What is its name... The Eagles and Wolves. You probably can ask those modders.

[Armatus]

Do they have quests? what period is it from?

[hellheaven1987]

Do they have quests? what period is it from?

I don't remember whether there are quests or not but the period is about 6th ~ 7th Century of British Isles. It is quite a historical accurate mod and presents the actual situation of British Isles during that period quite well.

The original thread.

[Armatus]

actually quoting the developer you're way off, and a little early, but could be somewhat of a useful reference. In perspective this would be 200 years earlier.

This mod is to be based around a time period from 400-420-ish A.D.

[Makrell]

the old germanic and norse gods are primarily the same gods with different names, like it is with greek and roman gods btw. So norse religions and culture is quite the same as the germanic pagans

[shikaka]

the old germanic and norse gods are primarily the same gods with different names, like it is with greek and roman gods btw. So norse religions and culture is quite the same as the germanic pagans

Slavs and Avars? Avars should be quite different, a nomad mindset is very different from a hunter-farmer mindset.

Sadly, I know bits of old hungarian religion only, not of Avar. But if it is interesting (maybe ideas for avars?), I can write a short summary.

[Zemdu]

here's somthing on slavic religion during this timeperiod

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_mythology

[Armatus]

Allow me to clear up the air, we don't seek who was who, we for the most part know who was who. We are interested in juicy little tid bits, pieces of information only a grandmother can give, handed down from her mother and her mother's mother from a time which no longer exists.

Think of the bards, most cultures had someone or something on the order of a traveler story teller. Also note that the stories they told so often refer to an older time gone by. These stories, or even names or places are what we seek.

[shikaka]

A few magyar things.
You can use it to gather ideas for pagan avars of prechengs. I am 100% sure that the religions and customs were not the same, BUT the nomad mindset in general guarantees that it was similar, and at least you might see the difference in a germanic (hunter-farmer) mindset and the nomad.


Totemism
It is very important that the totem is symbolic. It is an icon which gives the family a common ancestor, thus strengthens the bond between them. It also gives them a package of ethics, which they try to follow. I don't know in other cultures, but in nomadic cultures, the totem was commonly a bird (falcon, hawk, vulture, or even griphon and phoenix etc.). The reason is simple, for folks who domesticate and take care of land animals, those are not special in any way anymore. That is the reason why you will not find boars, wolves, bears with nomads, they are not nearly as special to them as a falcon for example. Since they see the endless steppe and the sky above it during their lifetime, the birds are the chosen in general.


Táltos
These were not preachers, and didn't care about the religious peoples needs. They were all special, born with 'extra bones' a gift from God (like an extra finger, or with teeth upon birth). They were skilled in healing, herbs and other natural cures and poison, and astrology.
In mythology, they also posessed powers like seeing the future, knowing what is below ground (where to did for treasure, water, etc. what is needed at the moment), and duelled each other to change things. (like for shorter winter or more rain) These duels are quite strange, two Táltos are just wandering, and they meet, at this time they are aware that they were wandering to meet each other and to duel, where the outcome will decide something. They often duelled in animal forms (bull, horse, great deer, etc.)
They are capable of reaching the spirit word in two ways, the regular trancendent journey, but in some legends they actually climb the world tree/tree reaching the sky and they enter the spirit world physically.
The táltos is also a word for a very good horse, this is from the legends and tales with táltos figures. Usually it goes like that the táltos who doesn't own a horse finds one which is ugly and weak, but intelligent, buys it, and he feeds to horse ash and embers. During this, the horse becomes special, an animal which can accompany the táltos on his transcendent journeys.

Sámán
The main religious figure, he does the sacrifices to god, and he is able to reach the world of ghosts, souls and spirits with a kind of trans. It is very important as he is basicly a go-between the two worlds, and his actions greatly help the fears from the afterlife of the village. They can also help common people to reach this trans (révület actually), with herbs, mushrooms, potions. They are also the main figure who organises celebrations.

Regös
It is a kind of helper to the shaman, they are basicly singers who help him with their chants. They usually work independent from the shaman as well, mainly as storytellers.

Sprinkleing
Now it is at easter, but it was simply a spring-time celebration. The boys go to houses of young women at night, and put a young tree ahead of the house. They go to the same place during the day, and request entrance. When they are in, they pour a bucket of water on the girls, so that they don't wither (!).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Often the young men are telling own poems to the girls, and the receive an egg like this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The original idea of this custom was that the youngsters meet each other (so that they find pair) and it also had a fertility side ('so the girls don't wither')


Also, during carvival, some people use strang custumes, and musical instruments to 'scare away to winter':

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Animals in legends
Very often animals are helpers, or send by God (not the christian god, but nomads often were monotheistic) to directly to influence the tribe. The most widely known animal is the deer (wonder deer - csodaszarvas), which has the sun on it's forehead, the stars on his kidneys, and the moon on his side. The wonderdeer is the symbol of starlight, the night sky, the sun combined. The icon of rebirth.


Blood pact
In general this is the strongest bond. If somebody else drinks or eats your blood, he has power over you. (this can be abused too! For example is someone licks the wound of the man he wants as a servant) Therefore the blood pact is the strongest pact possible. Those who agree, run their blood into a cup, and once everybody's blood is in it, all of them drink from it. From that time they are brothers, a family, and they won't betray each other.


Burials
The dead were buried with things: clothes, sometimes armor, weapons, knife, food and drinks. Often horses were buried too.

[Apep]

What I know -aside from parts what Shikaka said- is that they worshipped the Allfather, as the supreme male god, but he was never drawn or depicted in any way.
Also, the turul, or other birds of prey were used as symbol of divinity and fertility.
The young boys and men had to choose their wife from a different tribe. ( that custom is still living in Khazakhstan)

I don't know if this is any valuable information but I read that the nomadic legends said that the deluge happened because the Allfather spilled out water/soup from his pot as he was cooking.

[NikeBG]

For the Slavic beliefs and superstitions, the most fascinating thing that comes to my mind is the so-called "sabotnik" - someone born on a Saturday. It's believed that such people have supernatural abilities and can see and recognize demonic creatures like vampires, diseases, samodivas etc. They're also the only ones who can chase and destroy these creatures. They can also recognize magicians and they themselves can have the ability of clairvoyancy, dream interpretations etc. It's generally considered a good luck if a child is born on Saturday, since his/her house will be protected from magic, diseases, spirits etc. It's also interesting that the same superstition is also applied to animals - sabotnik-dogs are especially favoured (there's a famous motive of the Plague being afraid to enter a house guarded by a sabotnik-dog), while the oxes and horses born on Saturday were worth more than the ones born on the other days of the week.

[Armatus]

Thanks to all, I will read up on this tonight

And I seriously welcome anyone with family folk tales, some of these may not have been written down in the age we are discussing, but if they don't have roots in former times they often have parallels which make great ideas for questings and events.

[NikeBG]

Well, I could eventhually re-read and synthesize some more interesting Bulgarian folk tales, if you want (I looooved reading them when I was 5-10, used to walk around with a bag full of folk-tales books at summer and read them to myself or other children in my grandparents' village). Though we should keep in mind they're not simply Slavic, but have other influences as well (f.e. one of the most famous ones, about the three brothers, the dragon and the golden apple, is of Iranic origin, probably from the Bulgars (I think I'veread the Turks don't have it, so it can't be through them)). And I also have a book with Armenian folk tales.
We should also keep in mind that folk tales in Europe in general seem to have some common motifs (though I can't say if it's due to a "recent" mixing or older). F.e. that story of Kallo and the goblins you recently posted in the dev forum reminds me of Cinderella from one side, and of the Bulgarian stories for the golden girl on the other (main difference between Kallo and golden girl is that the latter had to wash some stuff, behaved good to an old woman and thus old woman made her wait till the river turns golden, while for the bad sister she made her wait till it turns black).

[Armatus]

Oh there's definitely parallel religion/myth, which is why I feel comfortable with taking later tales and adapting them to fit the era.

One thing I think we can all agree to when it comes to folklore and folktales, they report on human nature, what is true for people today largely has changed, but somethings never change such as our fear of the dark, our wonder and imagination and condition.

[NikeBG]

Btw, just read a story I hadn't read before - short, but interesting, even if not fairy-tale-like. It's basically about an emperor who loved to have fun and drink whole night long with his friends. But he absolutely hated the hangover on the next morning, so he promised a reward to anyone who can permanently cure him of hangovers (which, of course, no one could). Finally an old drunkard appeared and told him: "If you don't want to feel ill after drinking, just drink again! "One nail drives out another", as they say [i.e. "Fight fire with fire"]." "But what will become of me if I keep on doing that?", asked the shocked emperor, to which the drunkard replied "The same thing as me, of course." As a result, the emperor gave him the reward and never drank a drop of wine again.
Not exactly useful for a quest, but might be good for some kind of convo in the tavern or the docks or something.


P.S. Unfortunately, most of the folk tales I've seen aren't too "battle-oriented", but are more "adventure-like", f.e. with a prince or three sons or whatever going on a search for different things (unborn maiden, dragon or phoenix who steal the golden apple etc), meet different people or creatures, get some magical stuffs and finally return with the girl, the goods and the respect of the kingdom. But the biggest type are animal- or village-related ones, often merely humouristic with some moral lessons.
Here's an example of the village-related humouristic ones:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

There lived a very stupid, but lucky maiden which everyone called Smart Gana. Once a smart and hard-working man, called Stoyan, came to the village, liked her and soon married her, before he could find out how stupid she is. And when he did, it was too late, so he had to live with it.
Once he left some worn-out shirt for her to patch up, but unfortunately she didn't know how to sew. So she went to a briar bush, saw its thorns looking like needles and left the shirt, asking for the bush to sew it for her. Of course, some begger passed by and took it, so when she went back in the evening, she thought the bush had stolen it and rooted it out, finding a pot of gold beneath it. Not realising what it was, she went back to her husband and told him about it. He went to see what it is, loaded the gold on the cart and went home.
But if he told her about the gold, soon the whole village would know and the guards would take it, so he told her that a great hailstorm is coming and will kill lots of people, so she better run and hide in some hole in the yard and he'll cover her with a blanket, so the hail doesn't kill her. She did so and he safely managed to transfer the gold to his cellar (and before that he spread some millet on top of her, so the hens would eat it and she'd think hail is falling, which she, of course, did).
Nevertheless, Gana loved to talk so much, so she told the neighbours about the briar, the yellow thing etc and they soon realized what happened. A guard was sent to bring Stoyan to the judge, so he told his wife to stay home and guard the door. A lot of time passed, in which Stoyan was trying to convince the judge that he hasn't found any gold and his wife's just stupid and talking nonsenses, but the judge was clever and didn't believe him, trying to catch him in a lie. In the meantime Gana became quite worried, so she just took the door off its hinges, put it on her back and went to the judge to see what's going on. The judge saw how stupid she was and let him go.
But Stoyan got even more worried - his wife was so stupid that she might ruin everything. So one day he took her to some forest, covered her eyes with some ointment so she wouldn't see and left. Gana eventually fell asleep in some bush until some bandits came to a meadow nearby, carrying two bags of gold coins. One of them wanted to wash himself, so he went to the bush and, as he washing himself, some water fell on Gana's eyes and she opened one, exclaiming that she can see with one eyes now. The bandit got scared and ran to his comrades, thinking there's a vampire or witch in the bushes. Another bandit went there and she said she can see with the other eye, too. The bandits got terrified and ran away, leaving everything as it was. On the next morning Gana went home and told her husband about the two bags of "yellow", the weapons etc. left behind. She took him to the meadow and they brought the stuff back home. Eventually Gana did many other stupid things and died from her foolishness.

[Armatus]

That's actually a very good moral, we can all see why the emperor gave him the reward in coming to his senses.

The ones involving lots of outlandish things will of course be a little far out to present in the current state of the mount and blade engine (no magic kingdoms sadly) but the non battle ones I think break up the monotony of the game, since battle can get a little repetitive in M&B being the primary focus.

[shikaka]

The ones involving lots of outlandish things will of course be a little far out to present in the current state of the mount and blade engine (no magic kingdoms sadly) but the non battle ones I think break up the monotony of the game, since battle can get a little repetitive in M&B being the primary focus.

Even though practicly not useful at all to know how to trap a devil, it can be useful as a tip from the tavern keeper, or to spice up some companions.

For example 'everyone knows' that you can trap A (not 'the') devil into pork stomach (and put a lace on it to trap the devil), because 'it is common knowledge' that the devils cannot resist their urge to take a sneak peak into the empty stomach.

edit: this would be perfect for a recently baptised NPC, who is christian. I mean 'I know that God will protect me, but the spirits who now lack sacrifices are still in the woods, and they are hungry.'

[Armatus]

Good point, where do you think that originates from anyway?

[MilanSRBENDA]

About Slavic Paganism...

World -

First their view of world. They saw world as being one big tree where Gods are in the top of the tree , humans living on its log and god Veles , god of cattle and all animals, also a lord of world of the dead , sort of hippy hades , rulling the roots. But also they were sharing the whole universe in three distinct parts
Prav - The law , the utmost highest dimension of the world , it represented in slavic world the highest level in life , the law stands on the first place , it was even above Gods and in slavic mythology Gods are under law. They were to follow rules and laws too... Pravda is word for "justice" in many slavic languages and pravy in all slavic languages means "right, just, good"
Nav - The world of Gods , the utter side of world where Gods are inhabited and where they rule over Jav , the human world , but they heed the Prav , the laws , and rule the humans by using Prav , the rules. Though ofc they were ABOVE jav and they could do lots of stuff but they had to heed law aswell.
Jav - The world of humans , the world where Gods inhabited their offspring , the humans , which by legend came from God Dazhbog and in many slavic legends Slavs are represented as "Vnuki dazhboga" - "grandsons of Dazhbog". Jav is ruled by Gods and Gods feed the Jav with sun , rains , forests and so on. But its utterly ruled by law which every Slav , and Gods too, has to follow. Also slavs saw their Gods with love , not fear , because they were their offspring and they were friendly towards Gods and reverse.

And about slavic law , they had one interessting thing about thieves , for one to prove that he isn't a thief , he had to hold hot steel in his hands and don't get scorched to prove that he's not guilty... Well... I guess many had their hands bandaged... Though slavs didn't tend to crush the law because as we see , they had the utmost respect for it and for them law was above Gods.

Gods - Slavs had great variety of Gods and to them they were making Kumirs , wooden idols which oftenly had qubic shape. Their pantheon was formed of various Gods , but , like in most indo-european pagan religions , God of rain and thunder was quite major God , though he wasn't father to all Gods like Zeus for example.

Rod - The father of all Gods and of everything living , the root of everything in Nav and Jav , seen as Major God of slavs in recent time by some , probably because in Russia , which is biggest slavic nation and country , cult of Rod is the biggest one between russian rodnowers (slavic neopagans - Rodno - native , wera - religion , native religion - Rodnowerie) since he's father of Gods and thus to Slavs too because slavs came from God Dazhbog. But he wasn't so much respected as Perun did , hence Perun was God of rain , and thus praised by agricultural peasants which were majority in Slavic lands, which are lush and plainy. Rod means origin , cousin , family etc on that theme , in slavic languages, showing what this god actually is , root and origin of everything living.

Perun/Piorun - God of rain and thunder and of lower skies , shooting thunder arrows , sort of slavic Zeus. He was riding thunder chariot and he was riding on the clouds , and thats how slavs imagined the thundering, that it is the sound of Perun's chariot and horses , and that thunders are his arrows. He was also god of Oak ,and his temples which appeared pretty lately , were made of it. Probbably because oak is tree which is most likely to be hitten by thunder , so they guessed it as his favorite tree for some reason. In old slavic tradition besjeda (talk of group of people) was made under a oak, sitting in circle. And this way they shew their loyality to Perun and their hope in his guidance. His sign was Kolovrat , a symbol oftenly used by slavic neopagans as their main symbol , this... Also pagan slavs used it as their flags , and russian kniaz Oleg weared a shield with this symbol on it during his war with Byzantine, which he putted on the gates of Constantinople. In old baltic language piorus ,or something like that, meaned oak...

P.S. note the oak leaves around the symbol.

Svarog - God of Sun and upper skies. He has simmilar concept with Perun , precisely , it was belived that he rides a chariot too , but his horses were flaming horses and on back of his chariot was the Sun , which was shining the Jav. Its also notted that he had thunderhammer , which he used to make thunder arrows for Perun , so we see a refference to Thor and Mjolnir in here , except that Thor has nothing to do with sun but ok. Sva in Indoeuropean language meaned fire. And his son is Svarozhich, god of house hearth , and of any kind of fire at all. This shows some kind of heritage , I mean , Svarog is god of sun and his son god of Fire , they have simmilar abilities.

Jarilo - Son of Perun , god of War and spring. Represented as a young man riding a white horse , having a bow in his hands , story of his life represents the year cycle of seasons. When he birthed its spring , which Perun brought with his rain as sign of happiness , his sister , Morana , of which I will speak later and which is still very present in today slavic nations , didn't knew his brother nor she her , and when he met her he fell in love with her and thats summer. When Perun noticed that his son is with his own sister he took a bow and killed his son , and thats autumn , when Perun becomes sad and nature changes with his mood. Jarilo then rebirths in the land of the dead at God Veles which is caring of him , thats Winter , when Jarilo grows up and goes outside into world thats again spring when nature is happy about their beautiful God back , sorta slavic Apollo because he's said to be very beautiful. There is an pagan celebration of coming of Jarilo back into world , Jarga , still praised by Rodnowers. Here is video of Jarga by russian rodnowers...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVbuZrljERY
Jaroslav is a slavic name which is widely used in modern times too , a remnant of paganism , though Southern slavs quite long time do not practice using this name and today you will find hardly anybody named like that in Balkans but all other slavs mostly have this name.

Veles/Volos - God of cattle , agriculture , wild animals , animals generaly, forests and land of the dead. Hippy hades , sort of combination of Hades and Demetra. That we see in the Rus' message to Byzantines about something , forgot about what , I think some trade or something , where they say "we swear by the name of Volos, God of our Cattle and our fields , that we will..."

Dazhbog/Dajbog - Grandfather of Slavs. As I meantioned before, ancient slavs described themselves as "Vnuki Dazhboga" , dazhbogs grandsons. Dazhbog was reffered as cultural hero of Slavs also , and as a source of great wisdom. Represented as very old , having one leg invalid , wearing a bear skin on his back. He was protector of Slavic nation , his offspring , and a God to which slavs prayed for advice. Though he didn't have any special abilities like others did ,he had very special place in slavic community, and he was south slavic major God , especialy to Serbs , in whose national poetry you could meet the refferences about him in many places , for example in one songs where he's reffered as "Stari Daba , otac srpski..." - Old Daba (Dazhbog) , father of Serbs... Dazhd is rain in slavic languages , however also in church slavic , earliest slavic writting language , dazhd is imperial for to give , and serbian refference for him is Dajbog while in serbian Daj is also imperial of to give so his name probably refferes to fact that they prayed to him for advices and for some life things.

Stribog - God of winds , he blows all the winds and his favorite winds specificaly are the cold winds of the north so he's and oftenly found God between russians , since Russia is cold , windy land. Had very long beard. In southern slavic nations , there is an very old name Stribor , which still can be met between serbs and croats though pretty pretty rarely , but can be found.

Radgost/Radegast - Subtle God , sort of spy. It was belived that he is camuflaged into some weary traveler and come to villages seeing are they good. In slavic moral law it was banned to not accept any traveler into your house , and thus if you wouldn't accept guest you would brake Prav , the law, and Gods would punish them for that. And because of that whenever any traveler came to slavs , they would accept him and act best they can towards him , thinking that its god Radgost, willing to please the God. It was very known in Czech lands and today there is even one big statue of him there. Rad means happy , or joyful , gost means guest, so basicaly his name means Good guest or guest which is happily accepted/meeted , hard to describe in english language...

Svjatovid/Svantevit - Four headed god of war and chivalry , also there are different interpretations of him because his name's core words can be translated differentily , because in slavic language many words got much , mostly simmilar , numbers of meanings. He wasn't the original God from ancient times and appeared more lately , but was respected by Polabian slavs and great slavic shrine of Arkona was dedicted to him, before raging hordes of wild barbarian germanic tribes swept through and either killed or assimilated the Brandenburg/Polabian slavs. And shrine of Arkona was turned into a church , Oldkirchen its today called , however , there still are remnants of slavic times , specificaly great kumir of Svjatovid left there. About his name, Svjato , can mean "world" , but can be "holy" too, depending if its a noun or a attribute , while vid can mean "see" or vit "knight". Since of this meanings can be translated as "Holy knight" or "World watcher". This second is accepted by some because he has 4 heads , looking on 4 sides of the world.

Mokosh/Makosh' - The godess of female activities , weaving , sheering and such. She was respected by slavs as guardian of the households prosperity. And wives goodness. Was very respected by Poles.

There were also many house Gods , each house had their own God , patron , which was protector of that family and of that household.

At slavs which accepted Orthodox Christianity many cults of Different Gods or some pagan traditions , were changed by Christian saints or Celebrations. For example:
Perun - Saint Ilias
Svjatovid - Saint Vidus
Jarilo/Jarga celebration - Saint Georgious
Mokosh - Sain Paraskevy
Kolyada, slavic winter celebration - Christmas

and so on. Thats most probably due to slavic zealotness and loyalty to their pagan belives. Just like all other "Barbarian people of these times" of which some were just formaly christians , like western european germanic tribes , Franks and Angles , which even during Christianity kept the pagan traditions of witchcrafting , doing strange , Gothic , things , beliveing in orcs , goblins and other pagan creatures which today became core of many video games , such were slavs too. But Greeks found a wise way to christianize slavs , by not at all changing their belives , but adapting them to the Christianity , and making liturgical texts on their language , today known as church slavic , which was much more acceptable to slavs but still original slavs truely accepted christianity by 12th century, after russian civil war ended , where many pagan and christian russian states were slaughthering each others for about one hundred years , and when in balkans Saint Sava, a serb , slav by origin , went into villages baptising slavs , which happily accepted it from their prince , unstead from some weird looking greeks , of which many died trying.

From slavs came the legendary Vampires , which are product of slavic paganism. Vam - to you , Piti - drinking , those who drink you , in serbian tradition Krvopije (blood drinker) is also a termin for very annoying person. They belived that if they dont burn the dead body of their dead countryman or anybody at all , that he will stand up and become a vampire , and that was great problem for christian missionaries , which accepted only burial which was unacceptable by slavs which were scared that if they bury men , they will become vampires.

Morana , which I mentioned at Jarilo , her part of story there is when Perun killed Jarilo , she became sad and finaly became old ugly witch which tends to do bad things and in slavic tradition she's known as Baba Janga in Eastern europe or Baba Roga in balkans. Its oftenly used by older people to scare children , for example "Don't go there , Baba Roga will eat you if you go there!" and this evil godess was kept by slavs as sort of child control , for scaring children.

There is ton more to say about slavic mythology , and dozen more Gods , while mythology is so wide that I could write 15 times longer text than this one so I think its fairly enough. Slavic paganism BASICS O_O