What did Takenaka Shigeharu do that was so special?

[CoconutFred]

Accoring to Wikipedia and several other sites, Takenaka Shigeharu, also known as Hanbei, plotted an uprising against the Saito clan that earned him a position in Toyotomi Hideyoshi's staff. Apparently, throughout Hideyoshi's campaigns, Takenaka Shigeharu made so many contributions and was so tactically sound that he was likened to the Chinese strategist, Zhuge Liang.

Why is this? Discuss.

[Erwin Rommel]

Coz he took Inabayama Castle with 16 men?

Or maybe its that time when Hideyoshi visited him 3 times when he has a stint of seclusion, just like Zhuge Liang.

http://koei.wikia.com/wiki/Hanbei_Takenaka

Skip to historical info and dont mind that most of the pics is about a boy.

[Daqin]

The story of the three visits is likely apocryphal, meant to enhance Hanbei's reputation (incidentally, Hanbei itself seems to be a purely posthumous name). But he and Kuroda Yoshitaka (better known as Kuroda Kanbei) were pretty much seen as Hideyoshi's right and left hands, and in addition to Hanbei's contributions in Mino, both he and Kanbei are said to have devised many of the strategies Hideyoshi used against the Mori, including the "water attack" used on Takamatsu Castle, which was supposedly inspired by water attacks used during China's Three Kingdoms period, creating another san guo reference.

There's also a story (I have no idea if this is confirmed or not) that Hideyoshi had a long term affair with Hanbei's sister, which continued until Hanbei was near death (he was always sickly). Hideyoshi, presumably as a favor to Hanbei, ended it and allowed the woman to become a nun.

[Ying, Duke of Qin]

For those familiar with RTK: Hanbei = Zhuge Liang + Guo Jia. That is all we really need to know.

There is very little concrete information we have on him historically. However, what we do have shows signs of a brilliant man on par with Mitsuhide or Kuroda IF he was really responsible for the events attributed to him. He is recorded in certain documents as the Kirin of Mino. I personally believe that he really is as brilliant as the stories claim - he almost killed off Oda in the very, very first military encounter before Hideyoshi managed to get to him.

(Nitpick: the best sources of his life comes from a book written by his son. So, ahem, ah... yeah.)

[Daqin]

For those familiar with RTK: Hanbei = Zhuge Liang + Guo Jia. That is all we really need to know.

No one's brilliant enough to deserve that much praise. Being compared to Kongming alone is more than enough for any mortal.

[Ying, Duke of Qin]

No one's brilliant enough to deserve that much praise. Being compared to Kongming alone is more than enough for any mortal.

Do you mean Kongming from RoTK, or Kongming from SGZ? Because let's face it. Pound for pound, the most brilliant strategist in that time period is either Jia Xu or Gongjin.

And let's face it, embellishing makes stories that much more interesting, and judging from multiple sources at the time, the one thing that made Hanbei famous - the jacking of Invinci-castle with only 16 men - appears to be historical fact. EVERYONE tried to hire him afterwards. Nobunaga offered him half of Mino. Nagimasa offered him something like three thousand fold increase in his current (hefty) salary if he'd go serve him.

Hanbei is a good example of what we would consider to be an orthodox general. He's very good at formations, tactics, counter-formations, that sort of thing. Personality-wise, he's very much like Kongming as well.

I compare him to Guo Jia because Guo Jia died young.

[Daqin]

Do you mean Kongming from RoTK, or Kongming from SGZ? Because let's face it. Pound for pound, the most brilliant strategist in that time period is either Jia Xu or Gongjin.

And let's face it, embellishing makes stories that much more interesting, and judging from multiple sources at the time, the one thing that made Hanbei famous - the jacking of Invinci-castle with only 16 men - appears to be historical fact. EVERYONE tried to hire him afterwards. Nobunaga offered him half of Mino. Nagimasa offered him something like three thousand fold increase in his current (hefty) salary if he'd go serve him.

Hanbei is a good example of what we would consider to be an orthodox general. He's very good at formations, tactics, counter-formations, that sort of thing. Personality-wise, he's very much like Kongming as well.

I compare him to Guo Jia because Guo Jia died young.

I mean both, though I'm aware that Chen Shou's depiction of Zhuge Liang differs substantially from Luo Guangzhong's. The main thing that I meant, though, is that it sounded as if Hanbei was being compared to a combination of Zhuge Liang and Guo Jia, which would effectively make him into a god-like figure such as the Zhuge Liang of RoTK. I give Hanbei plenty of credit, but not that much credit. And since you mentioned Gongjin, you could just compare Hanbei to Zhou Yu alone since he also died young. If I remember right, both Zhou Yu and Guo Jia died at age 36. Pang Tong also died at about that age.

As for Hanbei's personality, though, I can't say much. I know he was compassionate towards Kuroda Kanbei's son when Nobunaga ordered that he be executed, and from what I can gather, Hanbei seems to have generally been very humble. Zhuge Liang (historically) seems to have been more ambitious. But I'm not familiar with Hanbei's biography and also can't read Japanese, so I defer to you on these matters and would be grateful for any additional information on the subject .

[Ying, Duke of Qin]

I mean both, though I'm aware that Chen Shou's depiction of Zhuge Liang differs substantially from Luo Guangzhong's. The main thing that I meant, though, is that it sounded as if Hanbei was being compared to a combination of Zhuge Liang and Guo Jia, which would effectively make him into a god-like figure such as the Zhuge Liang of RoTK. I give Hanbei plenty of credit, but not that much credit. And since you mentioned Gongjin, you could just compare Hanbei to Zhou Yu alone since he also died young. If I remember right, both Zhou Yu and Guo Jia died at age 36. Pang Tong also died at about that age.

Except Zhou Yu was hot beyond all belief. Therefore, no one could really be compared to him.

Hanbei was scholarly and pretty, but he lacked a certain degree of romantic finesse that Gongjin possessed. The best comparison may be LGZ's depiction of Lu Xun, or the historical interpretation of Kongming. Contrary to what modern apologists may believe, Kongming is not what we would call ambitious. If anything, he was faithfully carrying out orders by his late master anyways.

Since you cite RoTK, I was wondering if you could read Chinese? Because if you could, two works by his son, the 美浓诸国旧记" and "丰鉴" (Treatise on the Toyotomi) has been translated. Most of what we know historically come from those works. I do have to warn you, however, that they're from the works of a single person who is obviously biased towards his father, so take what he said with a grain of salt.

As for general information... What do you want to know? The bit on wiki covers the bare-bones skeletal structure of his life's work pretty well. Unless, of course, you're looking for fun little anecdotes like him meeting with Kuroda and inspired in Kuroda such a blindingly dispray of loyalty that Kuroda, too, served loyally at the end.

Though, compared to the two strategists, it is clear that Hideyoshi trusted - and admired Hanbei. While he also trusted Kuroda, he was always wary of the latter's abilities. This in itself suggests that Hanbei have more tricks up his sleeve than we could guess...

[Daqin]

Except Zhou Yu was hot beyond all belief. Therefore, no one could really be compared to him.

Hanbei was scholarly and pretty, but he lacked a certain degree of romantic finesse that Gongjin possessed. The best comparison may be LGZ's depiction of Lu Xun, or the historical interpretation of Kongming. Contrary to what modern apologists may believe, Kongming is not what we would call ambitious. If anything, he was faithfully carrying out orders by his late master anyways.

Since you cite RoTK, I was wondering if you could read Chinese? Because if you could, two works by his son, the 美浓诸国旧记" and "丰鉴" (Treatise on the Toyotomi) has been translated. Most of what we know historically come from those works. I do have to warn you, however, that they're from the works of a single person who is obviously biased towards his father, so take what he said with a grain of salt.

As for general information... What do you want to know? The bit on wiki covers the bare-bones skeletal structure of his life's work pretty well. Unless, of course, you're looking for fun little anecdotes like him meeting with Kuroda and inspired in Kuroda such a blindingly dispray of loyalty that Kuroda, too, served loyally at the end.

Though, compared to the two strategists, it is clear that Hideyoshi trusted - and admired Hanbei. While he also trusted Kuroda, he was always wary of the latter's abilities. This in itself suggests that Hanbei have more tricks up his sleeve than we could guess...

Unfortunately, I cannot yet read Chinese, though I am in the process of learning to (incidentally, my primary reason for doing so is to allow me to read RoTK in its original language, as well as the SGZ and a number of histories and philosophical treatises relating to the Han, Qin, and Zhou). But for now, I have to rely on translations.

The Lu Xun comparison is interesting (though I'm a little biased against him because I think he gets too much credit at the expense of Lü Meng, whom I hold in high esteem); to me this conjures an image of a calmer, more calculating Hanbei, which fits with depictions of him in some fictional works such as Yoshikawa Eiji's Taiko. But as for what I'm looking for, really its just things like the anecdote you mentioned--things that aren't necessarily common knowledge (I've read plenty of short bio's, like this). Bias is expected: its naturally going to be present in any surviving texts, the only question being the degree. But for instance, I was under the impression that even though Hideyoshi valued Hanbei so highly, I thought Kanbei was at worst a close second. That Hideyoshi considered Kanbei to be significantly less capable is news to me. So, just little things like that. I'm not asking you to pour through books for highly detailed info. I'm quite content with tidbits.

By the way, speaking of Kanbei, if you were to compare him to a Three Kingdoms strategist, who would it be? I also wonder if his conversion to Christianity might have tainted his image during the Edo period.

[Erwin Rommel]

Is it wrong to say, my image of Hanbei has been forever marred by Sengoku Basara, depicting him as a white haired bishounen?

[Ying, Duke of Qin]

Unfortunately, I cannot yet read Chinese, though I am in the process of learning to (incidentally, my primary reason for doing so is to allow me to read RoTK in its original language, as well as the SGZ and a number of histories and philosophical treatises relating to the Han, Qin, and Zhou). But for now, I have to rely on translations.

It'll take you a while to pick up Wenyan. The structure is quite different than modern Chinese.

The Lu Xun comparison is interesting (though I'm a little biased against him because I think he gets too much credit at the expense of Lü Meng, whom I hold in high esteem); to me this conjures an image of a calmer, more calculating Hanbei, which fits with depictions of him in some fictional works such as Yoshikawa Eiji's Taiko.

Out of curiosity. This is like the 9th time in all of our conversations you've mentioned Taiko. Is the book that good?

Hanbei was never "calculating," though he was rather calm. Hideoyshi trusted him far more than Kuroda (I don't refer to Kuroda as Kanbei because it's a poor habit. ).

But as for what I'm looking for, really its just things like the anecdote you mentioned--things that aren't necessarily common knowledge (I've read plenty of short bio's, like this). Bias is expected: its naturally going to be present in any surviving texts, the only question being the degree. But for instance, I was under the impression that even though Hideyoshi valued Hanbei so highly, I thought Kanbei was at worst a close second. That Hideyoshi considered Kanbei to be significantly less capable is news to me. So, just little things like that. I'm not asking you to pour through books for highly detailed info. I'm quite content with tidbits.

Well, first things first. The two strategists were on very good terms. In fact, one of the reasons that accelerated Hanbei's illness, as documented in his son's writing, was that Hanbei was worried sick that Nagamasa was going to be executed. He died of tuberculosis or lung cancer - but not before apparently making sure that Nagamasa was safe.

In comparison to Kanbei, Hanbei is ... he's noblesse oblige. Got a lot of blue-blood in him that makes him uniquely suited for diplomatic affairs. For instance, when Hideyoshi pissed off Oda really, really badly, it was Hanbei who went ahead and acted as an intercessor (this is when Kosaru and Mr.Angrish was herpaderping around Uesugi territory, and Kosaru decided to GTFO instead of fighting Kenshin).

Let's see. According to legend he wasn't much of a swordsman or fighter. He was far better at planning rather than fighting. His son has some embellished bit on his father's martial skill and suggested that Hanbei was quite an apt swordsman who may have even learned from the Kengo Shogun himself.

That, and the story which demonstrated his loyalty - so much that even Kuroda Kanbei was shocked. Kuroda Kanbei was highly regarded by Hideyoshi, who even awarded him a letter saying that the two are like brothers. When Hanbei saw it, he burnt the letter before a shocked Kanbei, explaining that "you're basically asking for trouble if someone else see you with this scroll. We retainers are retainers, not brothers. Do not think about behaving on the same level as our lord."

It may seem kind of douchebaggy until you realize that Kanbei is widely regarded as ambitious. If others find out, that scroll is enough evidence to peg him into the role of a potential usurper. In either case, once Hideyoshi heard, he was deeply touched, and AFAIK awarded Hanbei something (in which he obviously refused because he was an exemplary retainer like that).

Etc. There's a lot of other stories like that, but half the time I feel like the conversation's only one way, which reduces my motivation to write these long things somewhat.

Though, I will note one last thing. Hideyoshi both deeply admired and feared Kuroda. Once, in a tea party, he and his followers were sitting around and discussing random things. Suddenly, he dropped the question, "who do you think will unify the land if I was going to die?"

His retainers gave a bunch of different answers. Finally, Hideyoshi himself shook his head and said "Kuroda. That cripple is the only one who is dangerous enough to unify the land beneath his banner. I know him very well - he was with me while I was hiding out in no-hand's land for all these years."

His retainers were all laughing. Kanbei barely had a hundred thousand koku's worth in his domain. He wouldn't be able to raise enough troops. All of them kept on laughing until they realized that Hideyoshi wasn't laughing.

"No, I know that cripple the best. He will definitely be the one to take over if I die now..."

In another anecdote, when (I think it was Uesugi?) asked why Kanbei Kuroda's fief was so tiny (and it was. Only something like a hundred and twenty thousand koku). Hideyoshi angrily replied: if he was give even half a million koku's domain, the entire land would be his.

Despite all these, Hideyoshi treated Kanbei well enough. Even when he retreated into seclusion Hideyoshi gave him a stipend of 2000 koku per year and offered him room and board in Kyoto.

[Dekhain]

For those familiar with RTK: Hanbei = Zhuge Liang + Guo Jia. That is all we really need to know.

Considering historically Zhuge Liang had few accomplishments to his name I wouldn't really consider this high praise.