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Thread: A kingdom or an empire?

  1. #1
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default A kingdom or an empire?

    Both the Persians and the Romans had undegone series of profound changes since the third century - so the question is: is the state better reffered to as an empire, or a kingdom?




    (Long story short: who had an empire, and who had a kingdom)



    My opinion - they were both becoming ever more centralized and integrated, transforming in to kingdoms.

  2. #2
    Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze's Avatar Occasio mihi fertur
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    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    How do you define "kingdom" and how do you define "empire"? Can a kingdom be an empire without the same being true the other way around? A kingdom is always a nation ruled by a king (or queen, in cases). An empire is, in the strictest sense, ruled by an emperor, and in the less strict sense, a very powerful nation that has conquered large swaths of land. In that (read: my) definition, a kingdom can be an empire, but an empire is by far not always a kingdom.

    In short: could you tell us how you define the two?

  3. #3
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    That's up to your own interpretation - if it wasn't, I wouldn't have opened the thread.

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    Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze's Avatar Occasio mihi fertur
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    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    Then both were empires to me, no matter how centralized.
    I interpret "King of Kings" as "Emperor".

  5. #5
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    Then again, Iran had become relatively monolythic by then.
    Last edited by Blatta Optima Maxima; May 26, 2011 at 01:37 PM.

  6. #6
    juvenus's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocroach the great View Post
    Then again, Iran had become relatively monolythic by then.
    sooo? what's ur point? every kingdom/empire was pretty much monolithic.


  7. #7
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    I mean, as in rather centralized - Rome, for example, was based on provinces initially. Achaemenids - on satrapies. Parthians - well, typically feudalist. The late Sasanians had made great effort in centralizing their state, thus reducing its diversity and regional authonomy, typical of empires.

  8. #8

    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    I don't know much about this but I will call sassanid a kingdom .

  9. #9
    Pompeius Magnus's Avatar primus inter pares
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    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    If you take the Roman Empire as a criterion or scale for an empire and/or kingdom then the Sasanian king of kings was of course ruling over an empire and therefore he was more an emperor than a king.
    But that's pure terminology concerning the emphasis of a country.

    The ancient macedionians had a king - called Basileios. But Basileios means not exactly the same like "king". The translation for that is something like "sovereign".
    The East Roman Empire of the Middle Ages has called the ruler Basileius (beside Augustos - a term which was still valid).
    But we know that the term Basileios was used to define the emperor - therefore the Basileios (the sovereign) was ruling over an empire.

    The chinese title of emperor is Huangdi (and the "di" means a godhood; therefore the chinese definition was more something like a God Emperor) and is basically just a replacement of the former word "king" - with a drastically increased weightage.
    The translation of the first emperor Shi Huangdi means the first "revered one" (something like "Augustus"). My wife is from China and when she speaks about the chinese emperors she always use the word "king" or "König" (german).

    It is also interesting to check the definition of the Romans concerning the sasanian rulers.
    They called them "Rex Regum" (which means in english king of kings or in german Großkönig) - the greek speaking Romans of the medieval said "ho megas basileus" or "basileus tōn basiléōn" - the biggest sovereign.

    In my opinion the Roman translations (greek as well as latin) are still the most authentic if we compare it with the original term used by the persians šāhān šāh.
    Actually it was the land of the "king of kings" and therefore it was a kingdom (or a šāh-dom ).
    It was a kingdom which was de facto an empire - the land of an almighty sovereign ruling over many nations and gentiles.

  10. #10

    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pompeius Magnus View Post
    If you take the Roman Empire as a criterion or scale for an empire and/or kingdom then the Sasanian king of kings was of course ruling over an empire and therefore he was more an emperor than a king.
    But that's pure terminology concerning the emphasis of a country.

    The ancient macedionians had a king - called Basileios. But Basileios means not exactly the same like "king". The translation for that is something like "sovereign".
    The East Roman Empire of the Middle Ages has called the ruler Basileius (beside Augustos - a term which was still valid).
    But we know that the term Basileios was used to define the emperor - therefore the Basileios (the sovereign) was ruling over an empire.

    The chinese title of emperor is Huangdi (and the "di" means a godhood; therefore the chinese definition was more something like a God Emperor) and is basically just a replacement of the former word "king" - with a drastically increased weightage.
    The translation of the first emperor Shi Huangdi means the first "revered one" (something like "Augustus"). My wife is from China and when she speaks about the chinese emperors she always use the word "king" or "König" (german).

    It is also interesting to check the definition of the Romans concerning the sasanian rulers.
    They called them "Rex Regum" (which means in english king of kings or in german Großkönig) - the greek speaking Romans of the medieval said "ho megas basileus" or "basileus tōn basiléōn" - the biggest sovereign.

    In my opinion the Roman translations (greek as well as latin) are still the most authentic if we compare it with the original term used by the persians šāhān šāh.
    Actually it was the land of the "king of kings" and therefore it was a kingdom (or a šāh-dom ).
    It was a kingdom which was de facto an empire - the land of an almighty sovereign ruling over many nations and gentiles.
    Very well said, elaborate and in fact i learned a few new things! thank you!

    ...There's more than one of everything...

  11. #11
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    Off topic: LOL, Pomp's got an asian wife! You wouldn't believe how respected you'd become over at TD.

  12. #12
    Pompeius Magnus's Avatar primus inter pares
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    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    Help me. what means TD? I

  13. #13
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    Thema Devia (off topic in English)

  14. #14
    Pompeius Magnus's Avatar primus inter pares
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    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    Ahh, now I get it.
    There are so many China fan-boys?
    Last edited by Pompeius Magnus; May 29, 2011 at 01:49 PM.

  15. #15
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    No, asian women are the most highly regarded type on the internet.

  16. #16
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    , double post.
    Last edited by Blatta Optima Maxima; May 30, 2011 at 03:51 AM.

  17. #17
    juvenus's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocroach the great View Post
    Off topic: LOL, Pomp's got an asian wife! You wouldn't believe how respected you'd become over at TD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocroach the great View Post
    No, asian women are the most highly regarded type on the internet.
    if i can notice, it is very nice from u to firstly open a thread and than use it for a meaningless off topic chatter


  18. #18
    Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze's Avatar Occasio mihi fertur
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    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pompeius Magnus View Post
    If you take the Roman Empire as a criterion or scale for an empire and/or kingdom then the Sasanian king of kings was of course ruling over an empire and therefore he was more an emperor than a king.
    But that's pure terminology concerning the emphasis of a country.

    The ancient macedionians had a king - called Basileios. But Basileios means not exactly the same like "king". The translation for that is something like "sovereign".
    The East Roman Empire of the Middle Ages has called the ruler Basileius (beside Augustos - a term which was still valid).
    But we know that the term Basileios was used to define the emperor - therefore the Basileios (the sovereign) was ruling over an empire.

    The chinese title of emperor is Huangdi (and the "di" means a godhood; therefore the chinese definition was more something like a God Emperor) and is basically just a replacement of the former word "king" - with a drastically increased weightage.
    The translation of the first emperor Shi Huangdi means the first "revered one" (something like "Augustus"). My wife is from China and when she speaks about the chinese emperors she always use the word "king" or "König" (german).

    It is also interesting to check the definition of the Romans concerning the sasanian rulers.
    They called them "Rex Regum" (which means in english king of kings or in german Großkönig) - the greek speaking Romans of the medieval said "ho megas basileus" or "basileus tōn basiléōn" - the biggest sovereign.

    In my opinion the Roman translations (greek as well as latin) are still the most authentic if we compare it with the original term used by the persians šāhān šāh.
    Actually it was the land of the "king of kings" and therefore it was a kingdom (or a šāh-dom ).
    It was a kingdom which was de facto an empire - the land of an almighty sovereign ruling over many nations and gentiles.

    Have some rep!

  19. #19

    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    Since when did becoming centralized transform an empire into a kingdom? An empire "outranks" a kingdom; it is not simply a decentralized monarchy. A king rules over a nation. An emperor rules over many nations.

  20. #20
    Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze's Avatar Occasio mihi fertur
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    Default Re: A kingdom or an empire?

    Agreed
    An emperor rules over many nations.
    And not even that is necessary. For as far as I know, the Roman Empire at its height was pretty much one nation.

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