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Thread: Greatest Roman generals

  1. #21
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    Red Baron, I'd definitely put Marcellus at least in Tier 2, if not higher, and Fabius in quite possibly in tier 1. Also, I'm not seeing Papirius Cursor up there on the list, or Gaius Fabricius, the man who defeated Pyrrhus. Suggested tier 2 for both.

    I would also put Camillus in Tier 2, as there was nothing average about either his floruit period at Rome, or his expedited victory over Veii. And finally Metellus isn't even on your list, but he was a gifted general who conquered Jugurtha many times. He was described by Sallust.


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  2. #22

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    Great list. I think you've managed to list and classify just about every Roman/Byzantine general listed in history :p . Seriously though...great list. Just curious...what separates a tier 1 from tier 2, tier 3 generals? Is it their abilities as a general, their fame, or their overall impact on the Roman world?

  3. #23

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    Lucullus had far more to do with his victory in Pontus and Armenia while Metellus and Sertorius's assassination had more to do with his victory in Spain. His highly efficient campaign against the Pirates is indeed notable but one should consider that he was given nigh limitless resources to deal with the situation. No roman was surprised that Pompey defeated the Pirates; it was the quickness that deserved accolades. He doesn't deserve tier 1 inclusion. I would place him in Tier 2 but near the bottom.

    That said, great list, I agree with most of your placement.

  4. #24
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    My favourites in order of precedence:

    Quintus Sertorius
    Gaius Marius
    Gaius Julius Caeser
    Lucius Cornelius Sulla
    Quintus Metellus Pius (I cant remember his cognomen, because Pius is his agnomen; he help Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus defeat Sertorius)

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  5. #25
    Sidus Preclarum's Avatar Honnête Homme.
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    Quote Originally Posted by therussian
    ^ Exactly. Nero only fought in one battle, but in that battle, the fate of Rome was decided. He was truly a saviour of Rome.
    I might ad: nero fought in one battle only, but this is not what counts: what counts, is that, having conciously or merely instinctively understood the principles of the lignes intérieures he made an bold clever, and incredibly successful move, that has no strategic equivalent in the war save maybe Scipio's rush on Carthagena. That the strategic move was concluded by an important tactical victory, is almost inconsequential to the merits of Nero.Strategists being a precious rarity in the era, he definately deserves the place, say in the second tier.

  6. #26
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    Nero was pretty good, in fact brilliant at Metaurus, but it's just one battle, and I'd say a great overall general would need more than one move during one battle to recommend him. So I would say, Nero's move at Metaurus was of a Tier 1 general, but his previous and subsequent career was that of Tier 3...


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    the animating contest for freedom, go
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne
    Nero was pretty good, in fact brilliant at Metaurus, but it's just one battle, and I'd say a great overall general would need more than one move during one battle to recommend him. So I would say, Nero's move at Metaurus was of a Tier 1 general, but his previous and subsequent career was that of Tier 3...
    Exactly. There are enough Roman generals who were victorious in decisive battles and wars. But what did men like Nero, Marcellus and Metellus achieve? Neither Nero nor Marcellus was the saviour of Rome: both men had an impact on the Republic, but this impact doesn't come close to the impact Marius' military reforms and Caesar's victories had.

    The Tier 1 influenced Rome and their achievements influenced the way the Republic (and later Principate) ruled over southern-Europe. Without Scipio, it would be very hard (or even impossible) to defeat Hannibal: without Belisarius, it would've been very hard for Justinian and his successors to conquer back the territory of the WRE. On the other hand, men like Pompeius, Sertorius and Germanicus weren't famous military reformers or emperors, but the several campaigns they fought were fought with exceptional skill and talent. The fact that they fought against the odds most of the time with minimal resources shows their talents. Sertorius withstood the Senate's legions and even Pompeius with minimal resources: Germanicus campaign in Germany did much to restore Rome's image as an almighty force after Teutoberg Wald.

    On 5th/4th/early 3th century BC generals: not much is known about them. We do know a lot about Caesar, also about his early life and carreer. Nero was a talented commander, but he didn't influence Rome the way Scipio Africanus did: we also do not know enough about the other campaigns he fought in. TIER 1 (and to some extend also TIER 2) is only for the genii, the men who were giants as generals and statesman. In my opinion, Nero and Marcellus weren't men who were superior as generals to Scipio Africanus, Gaius Marius and of course Caesar. To be clear: the first men in TIER 3 are superior to the last men in the same tier.

    It's quite hard for me to rate the TIER 3 generals. I need help of you guys because of the simple fact that my knowledge of men like Dentatus and Claudius Nero isn't reliable enough to judge their military achievements. So, keep those suggestions coming!

    I've added Caecilius Metellus Pius, Papirius Cursor, Gaius Fabricius, Caecilius Metellus Numidicus, Caecilius Metellus Macedonicus, Quinctius Cincinnatus and Curius Dentatus.
    Last edited by Marcus Scaurus; March 06, 2006 at 12:51 PM.
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  8. #28
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    RB,

    Neither Nero nor Marcellus was the saviour of Rome: both men had an impact on the Republic
    Well wait, are we evaluating the statesmanship of these men, or their generalship?There's a big difference. Marcellus, for example, was a gifted general who was the very first to force Hannibal into stalemates, if not outright defeats -- multiple times. It's no accident that while Fabius was called the shield of Rome during the 2nd Punic War, he was called the sword of Rome. He's saved the Republic by constantly pressuring Hannibal, by his skilled manoevering, capture of cities, recapture of cities behind Hannibal's lines, and in general keeping Hannibal very much on his toes. He was no pushover. And consdering Hannibal's talent, it would take at least a Tier 2 general to be practically a match for him. So while he wasn't as good as Scipio (although we never know, he was killed before he could achieve more), he still deserves to be near the very top of Tier 2, and maybe bottom of Tier 1.

    Literally, years before Scipio was even around, there was only Fabius and Marcellus to keep Hannibal on his toes and not let him steamroll over Italy. Let's not forget how late Sicio entered into the war, so who preserved the Republic until then, from Cannae until Scipio's campaigns in Spain, and even during them because while Scipio was fighting in Spain, somebody had to fight off Hannibal, Mago, Hanno, and Hasdrubal in Italy? By the time Scipio even returned to Italy to invade Africa, Hannibal was already corned off in the very southern tip of Italy. Somebody had to do that. And while Marcellus was killed by then, for most of the post-Cannae period he played a very major role in denying Hannibal any foothold, the latter being utterly incapable of stopping him. Clearly a top Tier 2 general there.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne
    Literally, years before Scipio was even around, there was only Fabius and Marcellus to keep Hannibal on his toes and not let him steamroll over Italy. Let's not forget how late Sicio entered into the war, so who preserved the Republic until then, from Cannae until Scipio's campaigns in Spain, and even during them because while Scipio was fighting in Spain, somebody had to fight off Hannibal, Mago, Hanno, and Hasdrubal in Italy? By the time Scipio even returned to Italy to invade Africa, Hannibal was already corned off in the very southern tip of Italy. Somebody had to do that. And while Marcellus was killed by then, for most of the post-Cannae period he played a very major role in denying Hannibal any foothold, the latter being utterly incapable of stopping him. Clearly a top Tier 2 general there.
    Excellent post, SigniferOne. I've promoted Marcellus to the top of TIER 2. We should not forget that it the situation in Hispania was very bad for the Romans just before Scipio arrived. Both the father and uncle of the young Scipio were killed in battle by the Carthaginians, led by Hannibal's brothers Hasdrubal and Mago. It was thanks to the skilled Marcus Silvanus that the remaining 9000 legionaries weren't crushed by the 45000 Carthaginians. Fortune was on the side of the Romans, for some regions in Africa revolted and this prevented a large scale invasion by the Carthaginians. What if Scipio was killed at Cannae? I'm pretty sure that anarchy and panic would be around for a long time: if Hasdrubal and Mago could surpress the revolts and start working together, they could've kicked the Romans out of Spain. This would've made the situation in Italy far worse for the Romans.
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  10. #30
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    its a good list, i'd like to know if there are any rules other than opinion governing where they are placed on the list and what tier they are on...

    its nice to see you put julian the apostate (Flavius Claudius Julianus) up there. people often leave him out because he died on campaign (leading to its collapse under his successor), but his defeat of the alemanni undoubtedly set the roman frontiers for the next 50 years and his speed and instinct were top class.

    few in history have made a march such as the one he made to take the empire. paris to thrace overland in a few short weeks with an army - straight after defeating the franks. one of the most energetic generals of the late empire.
    Last edited by antea; March 06, 2006 at 04:30 PM.
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  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by antea
    few in history have made a march such as the one he made to take the empire. paris to thrace overland in a few short weeks with an army - straight after defeating the franks. one of the most energetic generals of the late empire.
    Really? Quite amazing, especially for a 4th century army.
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  12. #32
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    indeed. although its likely that he would have been defeated had constantius survived long enough to face him. his gaulish legions were well outnumbered by constantius' persian campaign army significantly - even if it was only partially loyal.

    although, julians advance on the east must have been shocking or even ghost like to constantius, as everyone lost track of him in germany and he simply appeared on the lower danube with 3000 men. certainly it must have shown the danube legions who should be their master.
    Last edited by antea; March 06, 2006 at 04:37 PM.
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  13. #33

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    Can anyone give more information about Narses and Stilicho?
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  14. #34
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    stilicho? hes the man that could have stopped the goths if it wasnt for the jealousy of the emperor. he had them bested and could have dealt a killer blow, but was ordered to stand down. within a decade they had sacked rome.
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  15. #35

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    I'd like to see the addition of Gaius Sosius, to the second or even first tier. His performance on Herod's behalf, defeating the Parthians and dislodging the former's rival is fairly impressive, but his other exploits with Antony also seem to paint him as compitent general.


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  16. #36
    therussian's Avatar Use your imagination
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Baron
    Can anyone give more information about Narses and Stilicho?
    Well, Narsess was a eunuch, so he was castrated (willingly). Anyway, he was Armenian, and his first (I think) actual conflict was in Constantinople itself, during the Nike Riots. As Belisarius' soldiers were killing the crowd in the Hippodrome, Narsess (in his 60's or 70's) was at the entrances, keeping the population from leaving the building.

    Anyway, as Belisarius slowly fell out of favour with Justinian, Narsess slowly began to achieve more fame. He was sent to replace Belisarius in Italy in the wars with the Ostrogoths. He never really had any political enemies except Justinian's wife, Theodora I think it was. She always made fun of how he was a eunuch and it hurt him to the quick.

    That's all I know off the top of my head.


    Edit: Here is what I found off of Wikipedia (i know, I know)

    Narses (478-573) was, along with Belisarius, one of the two great generals in the service of the Eastern Roman Emperor Justinian I. during the so-called "Reconquest" that took place during the Justinian's reign.

    Narses was a Romanized Armenian from the noble Kamsarakan family, which claimed descent from the royal Arsacid dynasty. He spent most of his life as a relatively unimportant eunuch in the palace of the emperors in Constantinople, but when Justinian became emperor in 527, historical events conspired to make him famous.

    He was 74 years old in 552, when the ever-suspicious Justinian recalled Belisarius from his campaign against the Ostrogoths in Italy and replaced him with Narses. Despite his age, he proved to be just as energetic and skilled as his predecessor, though history has generally credited Belisarius with the greater strategic genius. He launched yet another campaign against the Ostrogoths, finally defeating their formidable King Baduila at the Battle of Taginae. In 553 he defeated the remnants of the Ostrogoth army at the Battle of Mons Lactarius. In 554, he drove the Franks and Alamanni, who had come to help the Ostrogoths, back over the Alps. Eventually, the surviving Ostrogoths surrendered to him, and Italy was restored to the empire.

    Narses remained in Italy as its prefect (governor), but his administration was unpopular. After Justinian's death, his nephew Justin II removed him as prefect and demanded he return to Constantinople. Narses relinquished his post, but refused to leave Italy, instead retiring to a villa near Naples.

    The last years of his life are somewhat clouded in suspicion. Many sources at the time say Narses secretly encouraged the invasion of Italy by the Lombards in 568, in revenge for Justin II's taking away his position. Still, Narses, then 90 years old, offered his services to the emperor once more. He was turned down. By the time Narses died, more than half of Italy had fallen into Lombard hands.

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  17. #37
    Spartan JKM's Avatar Semisalis
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    Hey Red Baron. Nice work. Fun isn't it - compiling commanders?

    I'd love to contribute, but can't for lack of time. I'll join in very soon. There's much i would like to say. I will quickly say that Narses is even more of an unsung military great than Belisarius, and perhaps as able a general (that is saying a lot). At Taginae (Busta Gallorum) in 552 A.D., his use of dismounted cavalry (he made his Lombards and Heruls fight on foot to greatly lessen their possibility of fleeing) to hold the center of his line while deploying archery flanks to dismantle the Goths was supreme generalship. It was very 'Hannibalic', and somewhat foreshadowed what Edward III did at Crecy nearly 8 centuries later.

    1 more comment: Publius Ventidius Bassus (d. 30s B.C.) seems to have been a very adept commander. He had served under Julius Caesar in Gaul, and drove the Parthians out of the eastern provinces of Asia Minor and Syria when they invaded in 39 and 38 B.C. He returned to Rome the only Roman general to be honored with a triumph over the Parthians, and the stigma of Marcus Crassus' catastrophe at Carrhae some 15 years earlier was slightly mitigated.

    Red Baron, you will find John Hazel's book Who's Who in the Roman World absolutely invaluable. I made terrific use of this book as well as his Who's Who in the Greek World to make up the antiquity section of my TIER 3. These 2 references do not just include Romans and Greeks, but also all their enemies etc.

    http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.c...Location/Oxbow

    http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.c...Location/Oxbow

    Thanks, Spartan JKM :original:
    Last edited by Spartan JKM; March 16, 2006 at 05:36 PM. Reason: Grammar

  18. #38

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    Cant we just say Caesar and get over it?

  19. #39
    Gäiten's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Greatest Roman generals

    Some great generals/soldier-emperors of the 3rd century crisis:

    Publius Licinius Egnatius Gallienus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallienus) - he achieved to win an impressive string of victories against wannabe emperors & barbarian incursions, set the base for important reforms (military and civilian alike) and reigned a long period in a time where emperors often lasted for some months.

    Lucius Domitius Aurelianus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurelian) - he achieved to reunited the fragmented Roman Empire and was called Restitutor Orbis ("Restorer of the World").

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  20. #40

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    Nice to see Marcus Claudius Marccelus up there. In my opiniun,I think that he was a true roman hero in the second Punuc war. As his 3 victorys against Hannibal at Nola were able to give the Roman troops enough morale to win the war in Spain. And although Hannibal was able to ambush and kill him. Marcus certinly gave Hannibal a lot of grief

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