Im on 16 provinces, havent set off realm divide yet but i think that is because it is turn 100 and i have been very slow expanding, and there are 3 other factions that are about the same size but slightly smaller.
Im on 16 provinces, havent set off realm divide yet but i think that is because it is turn 100 and i have been very slow expanding, and there are 3 other factions that are about the same size but slightly smaller.
Perhaps the Shimazu campaign is something different from the others because Shimazu don't border any major clan, still I can't understand how the Clan Otomo, Ito and Sagara can expect to survive in the age of the country at war without trying at least to expand vs a weaker bordering clan.
With shimazu the key is Bungo, once you take it you're either at war with Sagara (because it took it from Otomo) or you can go straight to Buzen up in the north. Speaking in the military terms, you can steamroll even Clan Ouchi which is by all accounts 3 times richer than Shimazu but who poses NO opposition. The way to make the campaign work is by having the clans react aggressively to your moves but that doesn't seem to happen and that's where we should work on, imho.
I believe the autogarrison scripts are highly offsetting the capability of a clan to attack and conquer a province. The AI rarely keeps the siege going, it storms the walls immediately regardless of the numbers of the defenders inside.
I do understand that giving a garrison helps keeping the province for the AI but that also means when the AI storms the structure its army is completely wiped out and that doesn't do either because you will crush that AI in the following 2 turns. just my 5 c.
New Open Beta update 3.
The last bullet in the changelog is the most interesting for you to test.
Renamed some more CAI related files so please use the new update 4.
Just installed beta4 and going to test it later. As of beta 3, I am still concerned about the fact the AI is constantly storming in sieges where it can't numerically win, which results in disaster and might very well be the cause of some clans disappearing too early. Perhaps the garrison is too heavy but no, actually it's the AI logic that should change.
I rarely storm a castle, why should I... if I don't the AI will battle me when I am on defensive and I won't have to fight against the walls but sitting on the hills in easy defensive positions... so this is a top priority to me with CAI. It must not storm the castle unless it's got a really serious chance to win. At the same time, it must not sally out and try instead to send a relief force to support the engagement and break the siege.
As of the land combat itself, the AI acts nice but the scheme is roughly always the same. To this day (and I am far from being an expert) I have never lost a defensive or offensive siege (because of course I only storm the castles when I have high % to win) but, also, I rarely lost a battle in open ground. Much could be done if the AI saw the right moment to retreat from the engagement when it knows it can't win or, at least, save the general along with the routing troops to fight another day. That could be very helpful when retreating close to friendly and garrisoned structures because of the eventual reinforcements + the ability to replenish. As it is now, the AI loses mostly when the general is killed. I never won a battle without killing a general and that must change. The goal is to keep the AI playing, not losing stupid... and increase its bonuses to make it even. It's still losing stupid and things being what they are, especially at the beginning one of such stupid defeats will kill the clan, regardless of the balancing efforts you make by modding the game.
I hope you can do something about that, Darth... going to play a bit beta4 later.
Not much to say about the static nature of the minor clans of the island of kyushu. Sagara just builds units but never fights... it's as easy as 1 2 3 because once you get to Buzen you can actually conquer the rest of the island in 3 turns leaving Sagara totally surrounded. Perhaps in 4 this has been improved... we'll see.
Are you saying that the oda can recruit 6 ashigaru units per turn?
the units are routing to fast i keep having to fight the same army 4-5 times even when running them down. A'm i alone in this? Calvary are MUCH more balanced. Spear wall is utterly broken when fighting. Running down routing enemy's after battle does not work they fight, if its a infantry unit trying to run down a infantry unit nothing happens they just fight?
They don't fight, Pyccos, each soldier is taking a last-ditch effort but ultimately loses after a single blow. They will never kill their pursuers (or at least, I've never seen it happening. And if Steam would count all the times I completed the Head Collector achievement, the number would have three digits).
I have an idea though regarding pursuing routing troops. Will post soon in a new thread.
Darth I've uploaded a replay for you to review regarding Mangonels projectiles' trajectory. It's a lot better now but still requires tweaking. The projectiles seem to be pulled down faster (like they should) but the pulling effect doesn't seem to grow enough, it should be stronger the more the projectile loses altitude.
To test the new mechanism I tried a siege with 3 Mangonel units and 3 European Cannons units. Each unit scored between 90 to 100 kills, depending on whether or not it had a gate in its way. In either case my point about trajectories is made perfect by the fact that some 10 projectiles from the 2 southern Mangonels landed in the freaking ocean (or the hills around it ).
Link to file:
https://rapidshare.com/files/2236549721/forDarth.replay
I hope you will fix this issue by 2.3, as 100 kills per unit (when it uses its entire available ammunition) is very very low. Also note that sometimes 20-30 soldiers who got hit by a projectile - survived. It seems a bit far-off. I think that the first two layers of soldiers around the blast zone, including the soldiers who got smashed by the projectile, should have a 90% chance to die (maybe 80% for the second layer). And they should take a bit more time to get back on their feet.
Anyway accuracy is good and well-balanced, it's the physics that cause the uselessness of Mangonels (when compared to their price and limitations).
All roads lead to Rome101. Also, squirrels.
New update and please urgently report about CAI for this version.
Pardon my idioticy but if I had 2.15 can I just install 2.2 update 4/5 without 2.2 in the middle? The file size makes me fear I'm losing something.
All roads lead to Rome101. Also, squirrels.
beta 5 is not compatible with vanilla garrison.
2.2 beta 4 report:
- i still haven't got any anticavalry bonus for katana samurai
- keep hating the new melee formations i can't stand these 4-5 stupid columns that they form when charging. I'll make a screenshot asap..
Darth, just an observation, when i was using ESF 1.4.8 it was doing the same. but with 1.4.6 changes seem to take affect without the error....maybe give it a try if you havent already, just a thought.Note: I tried to use the ESF Editor again but it corrupts the game. Although the changes apply, when I exit the game an error message pops ups that indicates something is wrong. Unfortunately there is currently no tool to make the Oda more powerful at start up.
You can install on top of version 2.15 whatever option you play (vanilla garrison, handicaps etc) or above any other open beta.
♔BayonetFodder-San♔
Sorry for being lazy here but I must go now, can you link to me this specific esf editor?
I will use it and maybe offer the changes as a beta to enable/disable in the launcher why not.
Last edited by DARTH VADER; May 23, 2011 at 02:29 AM.
yes my lord...attaching now
help plz with garrion size vanilla not working with beta 5.
A lot of obs after a huge and long game with beta5. Shimazu, Hard, Normal Size (large & large fleets), normal garrison.
The usual strategy, taking Osumi at the second turn by laying siege and waiting for the garrison to engage me. Since ITO has a second army in Hyuga, it should have come to rescue... instead it sallied out and I comfortably obliterated it playing defensive on the hills. If the AI is taught NOT to sally out until the last moment, the whole game will change for the better but I don't know whether this is possibly moddable or not.
Next, this time clan OUCHI (I believe... it's the GREY color) declared war on me and it was absolutely perfect, never happened before so I guess something's starting to stir with the mod. This clan owned Bungo so it came right away but it camped one turn at the border of Hyuga, in winter and took some losses. I was too depleted to attack and stayed in the castle replenishing. Unexplainably, the enemy did NOT attack which is bad, and in the following turn I managed to bring reinforcements and destroy this threatening army (it was a majestic battle). In the following turn I conquered Bingo unchecked. Clan OUCHI did not pose any threat at all. Did not try to recapture Bingo and in about 6 turns I captured Buzen, Tsukushima and Hizen without a single battle, only sieges with inadeguate defenses (and I repeat, no army on the field). Clan OUCHI (I think it is but I am not sure, it's the dark GREY color) was in Nagato and Suo as well so we are talking of a clan with 6 provinces doing absolutely nothing until it was obliterated... in fact, I went for Suo and Nagato next and I fought ONE battle only on the field (winning).
Clan SAGARA was totally inactive but to keep things perfect while all of this was taking place I offered alliance + marriage of the daimyo's daughter. Sagara never intervened in battle and did not try to conquer Tsukushima or Hizen. Bad.
While all of this was happening, MORI declared war on me. At that point in time it only had ONE province (Iwami) and while it did not send any troops to Kyushu, it had a VERY powerful fleet which, to my bad I later discovered being formed by mostly light ships and half of it was TRADE ships but also a real combat fleet which intervened later on. I think this might be the "spamming" problem, maybe it happens with fleets too? Clan MORI however, blockaded Satsuma so I campaigned to conquer Kyushu without trade incomes at all. MORI probably perceived my expansionistic ideas and it was soon followed by ODA. What made this campaign entertaining was the naval battles being fought with ODA+MORI joined by CHOSOKABE for just naval campaigning on their part and total neglection of province holding and capturing. Had any of these 3 invaded Kyushu everything would have changed. Same goes for Sagara attitude. Totally asleep clan.
Neither of these two clans actually needed to waste resources on me, besides from failing of course. MORI is in Honshu and I found out when my ninja arrived and Kyushu was in my hands that its lands were totally undefended which is VERY bad... so after eliminating OUCHI (dark grey, Suo and Nagato) I captured Iwami and Aki very easily... All Mori did was send an army that devastated the region of Suo without ever attempting to capture the region despite having mostly Samurai against my mostly Ashigaru Army (Yoshiiro because Takahisa was in Iwami). At this point, Mori asked for peace, I counterproposed peace + trade agreement and the game CTD during the AI's turn... that's why I am reporting before going to play again.
I tried to describe the campaign so that the strategy of the AI could be made clear in its uselessness but here's the summary of my observations on things I noticed in the meanwhile.
1) The AI must NOT sally out, it should send reinforcements... at least delay the player or force him to storm the structure which is much harder to beat than fighting defensive on open ground if the AI sallies out.
2) during the only siege I defended in, so inconclusive the AI strategy I don't even remember where, I noticed 2 things: 1) the AI archers around my stronghold did not go in loose formation and were totally obliterated by mine... if something could be done here it would be great. 2) The AI general intervenes in siege by dismounting ONLY as last resort... which is... when the battle is already lost because 90% of its units are already routing. Things being what they are, with the AI storming a structure when it's got no chance to win, not loosening formations under fire and not employing the general at the right time, there is NO WAY the player may lose a defensive siege. Again, better NOT storm the structure at all and eventually fight on the field if I sally out or... starve me to death if I can't get reinforcements. This must absolutely be fixed... I hope you can Darth.
3) I tried all the time to make peace with ODA. It didn't make sense for ODA to be at war with me, being surrounded by so many enemies, but I found out even though my attitude towards Oda was improving (because Oda only sent one fleet and after I sunk it, there was no combat anymore) I had this -10 modifier "Daimyo's honor". It can't have been mine, I never looted, never broke an agreement, so I suppose it was his honor... yet... Oda should have accepted my peace request, same for Mori, especially after his fleet was destroyed.
The concept is simple: war means war, you either give full resources and commit all of your troops or it's better to stay at peace, even trade, and then fight when you can really commit. The AI doesn't understand that... it only goes for peace when you are about to eliminate it, tht's why Mori asked for peace when I captured AKI. Unfortunately, as I said, the game CTD afterwards, of course I only accepted to move against Chosokabe. In the age of the country at war, peace is relative. It can be useful to regroup and gather strenght but if you ask it only when you are already defeated why should your adversary concede it?
4) Last but no least I have an observation to do about the recruiting/experience/mixed soldier types system:
It appears to me all the TW titles share this view (rather gamey I must add) that experienced troops can be bought as long as you have got money for it (both to recruit, to pay the upkeep and to build the high-tier structures required) but this is not how it should work.
First of all, by levying ashigaru, you are taking peasant conscripts with a very low pay (if any)... these are the people that should work the land... arms you take away from the agriculture. They should cost much less to levy (MUCH less) and a lot more (quite a LOT!) to upkeep. That simulates the damage to the economy you do when you are at war and need men and this would finely counter the fact there's no pop limiters, alias, you can recruit an infinite number of men regardless of how many provinces you own.
On the other hand, Samurai should entirely depend on the provinces you have and thus, since we have no pop limiter again, they should cost MORE in recruiting but very little in upkeep because these are not mercenaries and they do not count against the aforementioned economic problems. These are elite soldiers who do not WORK for the economy, they only fight. So you see it goes the opposite way. Higher ashigaru numbers in each unit (with low stats) produce high upkeep (to build the effect on economy) but cost nothing to recruit. They will be poor soldiers, there will be lots of them but their effect in battle is obviously questionable compared to lower samurai numbers in each unit (with high stats) and low upkeep (not mercs) for a higher recruiting cost.
My idea, if implemented, would make the game more realistic but, on the other hand, something else should happen and, in this case, it should happen anyway even if things were not conceived the way I think they should: global modifiers.
Still connected to the idea of "human market" where you buy what you shouldn't (good troops can't be bought, they are forged in battle!).
In the current system high tier buildings allow the creation of high xp units. We have Daimyo's modifiers (rank and traits), retainers modifiers, event modifiers (i.e. ardoour), equipment modifiers (i.e. swordsmith at Satsuma) and Arts modifiers... to this, we also add the XP modifiers.
My question hereby is: How do you expect to have realistic battle results if it's possible to build unrealistic units because of all these modifiers?
XP has to come from battles and there has to be a CAP otherwise weaker units will beat stronger units messing up everything. There simply are too many modifiers to cope with and the system should be rebuilt from the main factor: 1 man is ONE man.
You can give him 10 upgrades and then in the game that 1 man is worth 10 and this is why the impossible happens in battle.
I suggest to at least disband the units once half of their numbers are gone. An elite unit not replenished by elite soldiers should drop experience... if it doesn't, it's better to have it disbanded. War is not a market and you can't buy elite troops, you must forge them on the field and, yet, they are not expected to live forever in any case.
Finally, have you considered the fact that the solution to the AI spamming the same unit types might be the localized limit on building structures? If I can only recruit No Dachi from Satsuma because it's the only place where I can build the dojo I'll never have an army entirely built with No Dachi. Might work with the AI...
Fresh Hojo Hard for update 5: 2 plays up to turn 20 Edit: I know, not really long enough but I dont get much time.
Archers do appear stronger to me. Have been giving a good account of themselves in siege melee.
First clashes are often movie worthy, troops are tending to punch right through for me.
The Oda in both my games were wiped out in turns 10 and 11 by minor clan.
Last edited by Nemmy101; May 23, 2011 at 05:40 AM.
Good prolonged report G-Shock, +rep.
I like your economical suggestions and think that there's room to review these more thoroughly. Will wait for the community's reaction. However, I disagree with your view regarding the role experience plays in the balance of battles. I will not elaborate on this subject as I believe we need to use the forum itself to discuss this. Try opening a new thread dedicated to each idea.
All roads lead to Rome101. Also, squirrels.
Thanks for taking your time to read it, Rome.
I didn't say experience has no role in the balance of battle, on the contrary, I was talking of global modifiers and each, singularly, modifying the key factor (man) to an extent where it's not strategy but this "market philosophy" behind the whole TW series that wins the battle (and the campaigns). Experience is just ONE of these factors (I think I named them all).
Maybe the Darth Mod can take into account that this is wrong and move a bit more on a realistic level of gameplay by "smoothening" the various factors so that in the end, and exactly how it has to be, it's how you employ your troops that makes the difference instead of what troop types (and with what modifiers) you can afford to buy.
In the specific case of experience, this is something you can't buy because of high-tier buildings.
Experience is acquired in combat and we must assume soldiers in a unit will die or be severely wounded much longer before acquiring level 5. We cannot see this in the game because the replenishment and CTL-M doesn't take it into account... and this is why we can potentially have a unit with high experience live throughout the entire Sengoku Jidai.
Realistically, once you have a 3 x XP unit depleted to 50% of its numbers the new recruits should make this XP drop to 2 (50% at 3, 50% at 1 = 2 on avg) but that doesn't happen (and I am not 100% sure... perhaps it does and I didn't notice).
This thing pushes me to think that unless there's an XP limiter to each unit type, units should be disbanded. Choosing not to do that will lead to easy battles for the player. Essentially, I have conquered Kyushu with the same 2 Katana Samurai and 1 Yari Samurai I built at the beginning + scores of Ashigaru units where 1 archer unit is 5xXP. I haven't seen such high XP from AI units. My ashigaru can stand against Samurai and this is a bit gamey but the specific spot where you can see the extent of this problem is with the General and his Hatamoto (how easy it is to replace Hatamoto?)
Disregarding the other modifiers (Takahisa's heirs spawn with bonus to weapons after I upgrade the weaponsmith but I am more specifically talking about XP here) you must have noticed that the general is particularly resilient in combat and fights, sometimes winning easily, against units 10 times its own size. Reminds me of some M2TW/RTW mods where it took 3 or 4 units to bring him down (400 vs 1 lol). There are more offsetting factors in the case of cavalry... you can mod the stats, you have 10 different modifiers... has anyone wondered there's ONE modifier that goes to sleep with all these modifiers? The penalty for fighting in woods. It's but ONE example of where this market philosophy goes. Since the cavalry on the winning side kills the routing troops the XP increases are HUGE... this also messes up with the spear vs cav bonus.
At the light of the problems I am rising, I think it's easier and more productive to rebuild the system from scratch with specific limiters rather than spending countless hours on balancing unit vs unit issues. Some factors can't be changed and, after all, whatever we do is useless if the AI doesn't cope.
We might go for compromises here and there... it's a game after all, but they must follow logics, otherwise we screw up more than CA already did... as of opening a new thread, I'd be happy if the mod did. I know some of these ideas are "revolutionary" but in the end it's a matter of choices, whether to keep the arcade or... move towards realism.
In either case you can't make everyone happy but what matters the most is that the AI is happy... unbelievable isn't it?