View Poll Results: What do you think about Ashigaru Archers?

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  • Perfect like now(2.15v).

    34 50.00%
  • Too weak, let the price but increase their strength.

    24 35.29%
  • Too expensive, let weakness but lowered the price.

    5 7.35%
  • Too weak and to expensive!

    5 7.35%
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Thread: The Large Archer Debate Thread

  1. #1
    Brips's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default The Large Archer Debate Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Resoded View Post
    Was about to write this in the giga thread.

    At the moment I find Bow Ashigarus so weak that I don't even bother training them. Yaris are more effective and cheaper.

    Since lots of people like them the way they are. How about lowering the cost of recruiting them? At the moment they are way too expensive to be worth buying, they should cost more like Yari Ashigarus.
    As Darth has asked, a poll.
    For me they are too weak, need more accuracy. The higher price than yari is normal, they can fight AND shoot.
    Last edited by Brips; May 19, 2011 at 06:31 AM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    Yes i think they are to weak as well.

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    Against armour they are too weak. My whole squad of Ashigaru archers take forever to kill an enemy bow samurai.

  4. #4
    VirusITA's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Clamchop View Post
    Against armour they are too weak. My whole squad of Ashigaru archers take forever to kill an enemy bow samurai.
    Because they are supposed to be used against unarmored troops (and they are really good on killing them). If you want to take down armored samurai you have to used mainly bow samurai.

  5. #5
    Syntax's Avatar "Veni Vidi Vici"
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    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    Originally Posted by Rome101
    Yes, Darth was right, archers do fire all together. I guess I was experiencing an angle problem. They are definitely fine.
    For those who complain that they are underpowered... first, if the arrows don't get stuck on walls, they rack up quite some kills. Around ~80 can be achieved in just 3-4 salvos. First, try to understand how archers operate - these aren't snipers like the Mongols or the English Long-bowmen. They require a pretty clean shooting angle to make the most out of them. You should also not switch targets too often, as I think that the more they shoot at the same unit, the better they are able to aim. You need to learn to maneuver them, place them and lure the enemy into such situations where they can shoot at least 3-4 times before withdrawing. Try learning how killzones and ambushes work.
    Second, and most important probably, is the use of advanced archers. Ashigaru=peasant, you can't expect them to be master marksmen, if you want more lethal archers you should consider recruiting bow samurais, ronin, monks or heroes. Ashigaru are the lowest-class bowmen available. If we'd compare them to some more modern terms, than Ashigaru Archers are like an RPG grenade, where Bow Heroes/monks/etc. are GPS-guided ICMBs
    That's how archers should be used - Rome101 learned it the hard way!
    So for me it's clear here on the poll a definite they are okay the way they are!

    Last edited by Syntax; May 23, 2011 at 07:46 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    Thanks Syntax for saving me the trouble of copy-pasting by myself (+rep)
    But don't call me Romeo, I'm Rome101 (10 was a typo).

    Anyway, yeah - archers are perfect where they stand with 2.15. Expecting Ashigaru Archers to kill Bow Samurais like Clamchop suggested is ridiculous - it's like saying that RTW's Roman Town Watch should be able to win a battle against Germanic Night Raiders. They are just WAY lower down the archers' food chain, and if your strategy relies heavily on archers (even though it totally shouldn't unless your clan has an expertise in archers, by nature, by conquest or by research) simply build better archers!
    You can't expect Ashigaru-anything to win Samurai-anything. It doesn't work like that.
    All roads lead to Rome101. Also, squirrels.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    I think they're almost perfectly balanced now - I would just lower the price, just a little. Something like 5 kokus less by turn.
    BTW, Monk archers are frightening.
    Teutonic Crusades Sub-mod for SS6.3
    Many graphical enhancements to Teutonic Order and Lithuania factions

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    They're fine with the actual accuracy, maybe a little more arrow damage for balance and keep the realism, but nothing more.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    Perhaps a little more arrow damage will do...

  10. #10

    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    For what it's worth on the arrow damage...the sengoku jidai armor (at least that worn by samurai) was extremely effective at stopping arrows, especially at long range; that image of the dude bristling with arrows isn't far off. I agree with the above posters; they're fine, and ashigaru bowmen should be used as skirmishers or against other unprotected ashigaru. By the time the Japanese invaded Korea in 1592 there were far more ashigaru armed with teppo than yumi; bowmen were more trained individuals who functioned as snipers or covering fire while the gunners reloaded.

  11. #11
    Thoal's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    Hi all,
    i saw this thread and wanted to write my opinion about archers. I think in Darthmod Version 2.15 the archers are well balanced. I saw the discussion about realism from archers in the mod. I like epic battles like the most twplayers. In the vanilla version of shogun i fought against massive bowarmys and had massive losses or lost completly against them because they were to strong.
    I can imagine what a volley of arrows can do with human body especially in this time epoch where the most soldiers wear leather or non armor and had no ironarmor to protect them from arrows. I can understood the wish for realism but under this circumstances where goes the fun for players? When the archers are made too strong then the battles lost their charme.
    It is no fun to build a large bowarmy and take out the half or more enemy army over distance in every battle. Then the battles are not powerfull and the tactic follow the same schemata and all other troops lost their own place on battlefield. Especially the Yariashigarubowmen present the peasents on the battlefield for me, not to strong to break up enemy lines or shot them down like dugs they take the enemy fire on them and save with their bodys the eliteunits from losses. In mod 2.15 they are strong enough to work as support troops and not as maintroops like the Samuraiarchers. When they can fire over a long time without being pressed by enemy they bring the enemy great casulties too. I am satisfied with the archers in 2.15. Thats my opinion on this discussion. Every player likes other styles. It is hard to satisfy all peoples flavour on this topic i think.


    And one question please, how can i vote on a poll like this? Thanks for help

  12. #12
    Brips's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    Stupid Japanese, where are the shields
    Just joking.
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  13. #13
    Resoded's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    My point of view is very simple.

    If you want balanced battle gameplay were all units are as effective as their recruiting price, then bow ashigarus and bow units are too weak (although I find them too strong in vanilla). They are less useful than Yari Ashigarus and they are more expensive. The only exception are defending sieges were bow units are great. Almost too good.

    The price made sense in Vanilla, but not in DM.

    At the moment DM seems to be adjusted to those who don't care about unit efficiency so they recruit bow units no matter what. But for me, I always want to have the most effective army possible for the least amount of money. And especially early game, Yari Ashigarus makes more sense to have than Bows. And as I've said before, I don't even recruit archers anymore and I steamroll the AI at hard, just because the AI builds many of them.

    I'd say keep the power of the bow units were they are, but lower the price so that they are worth the cost. Or make them stronger to equal their price.

  14. #14

    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    After playing for awhile I can tell, that my worst suspensions came true.

    Archers are not too weak - they sux (comparing to clean game). If 400 arrows fly to 400 targets, from castle "walls" (= clear shoot, shooting from upper to lower position) and only 3-4 enemies die, that means these archers are 1% effective.

    Another funny thing - I have put my archers like 10 meters behind fighting ASHIGARU unit, ordered them to fire from this close just into enemy back, I was hoping for massacre, but guess what - they shoot about 3-5 enemies per wave

    Actually, I thought that archers in clean game are a bit too weak, but this, this is just unbeliveable. Sure, maybe it's more real, maybe not. For me there is no point to argue about that, because I don't play games to be real, I play them to have fun, and I use mods to have even more fun.

    My opinion, if you care - make archery changes optional, as other parts of the mod, and everyone will be happy...

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ouso View Post
    For what it's worth on the arrow damage...the sengoku jidai armor (at least that worn by samurai) was extremely effective at stopping arrows, especially at long range; that image of the dude bristling with arrows isn't far off. I agree with the above posters; they're fine, and ashigaru bowmen should be used as skirmishers or against other unprotected ashigaru. By the time the Japanese invaded Korea in 1592 there were far more ashigaru armed with teppo than yumi; bowmen were more trained individuals who functioned as snipers or covering fire while the gunners reloaded.
    Because there is no "wound" mechanism, the low number of direct kills feels appropriate. What I suspect might make people feel better, though, is having a graphical patch allowing arrows to stick to an opponent that's been shot.

    Historically, most ashigaru only carried one arrow designed to kill important, armored targets. For the majority, they used "broadhead" arrows as general ammunition.

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    I don't see huge problems with them right now. Ashigaru archers kill ashigaru, samurai archers kill samurai.

    To quote Adventure Time: That's just nature, Gunter.

  17. #17

    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    Building archers from a Crafts region helps, +20 accuracy almost doubles the accuracy of ashugaru. Im getting a *minimum* of 100 kills for each of my archer units in my regular balanced army composition. As in worst case scenario ~500 kills from 5 units in a full stack.

    Also helping is positioning, manual selection of targets, multiple units firing at the same unit, and using units to support eachother.

    1 general (1)
    3 katana/nagi/bow samurai inf (9)
    2 yari/nagi/bow ashu ing (6)
    2 bow/katana sam cav (4)

    HOWEVER:
    There is a point when once the bad guys get too close you will do almost no damage. This is the range that normally is the most effective, as it is point blank. Not too much of a big deal, i just charge my melee inf in sooner which gives me more time to manuver my archers into better spots.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    First, because its my first post concerning this mod: Great work - first i used only AUM-SHO but then i tried both mods together and - just cant play without both.

    To topic:

    They are well balanced exept of this:

    Quote Originally Posted by rob-a-dogg View Post
    There is a point when once the bad guys get too close you will do almost no damage. This is the range that normally is the most effective, as it is point blank.
    Is it possible to create an abillity for close range fire?

    I dont know if it is possible to chance abillities this way, but different ranges should be possible (like the - sry, i dont know the english names - "rifle-monks" abillity to add range or the ninja "blinding-granade"-abillity which also changes the weapon-range for a certain time.

    If it is possible, the creation of an abillity which decreases the range and increases some unit stats (accuracy) could be a solution - if the KI (dont know the english word - i mean "computer controlled units") are able to use it in battle.

  19. #19
    Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    What's the rationale behind bow samurai's arrows being able to penetrate armor but not peasant arrows? And I don't mean in game terms, which is obviously for balance and whatnot, I just meant how can this gameplay balancing tweak be explained in real terms?

  20. #20

    Default Re: The Large Archer Debate Thread

    I had a time where I have 2 bow ashigarus on a hill. The enemy sent a light cavalry DIRECTLY to my archers, and my archers were shooting them since the cavs were inside their range. And guess what, none of the cavalries died from the arrows, and they only died because of my Yari Ashigaru.

    It was not realistic. My archers didn't kill a single unit EVEN THOUGH THE CAVALRIES WERE LIKE ONLY 5 METERS AWAY FROM THEM + they were ON A HILL.
    Other than that, the mod is very great.

    Srry for my bad english.
    I just want archers to be realistic. It's very annoying to see people who are immortal against arrows. Full Image


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