Diplomacy Help

[Sentou-no-Sakka]

Just asking, but were the Oda and the Tokugawa really at war with each other? I'm confused, because I used to know that relations with the Tokugawa and Oda were only strained, but they were not exactly at war with each other.

[Daqin]

There were numerous clashes between the Oda and Imagawa, and the Matsudaira (Tokugawa) of Mikawa were often caught in between. In 1548, the Oda invaded Mikawa, prompting Matsudaira Hirotada to seek help from the Imagawa, which led to their vassalage. Border wars continued until 1560, when Imagawa Yoshimoto began his march to Kyoto by invading Owari, and Matsudaira Motoyasu (Tokugawa Ieyasu) led the Matsudaira forces in Yoshimoto's army. When Yoshimoto was unexpectedly defeated and killed at Okehazama, young Ieyasu withdrew to Mikawa. This paved the way for friendship between himself and Oda Nobunaga: Ieyasu worked to consolidate Mikawa and free himself of the Imagawa, while Nobunaga turned his attention to the Saito of Mino.

[DeMolay]

Nobuhide , the father of Nobunaga , ruled only over a small domain in Owari (which bordered Mikawa ) , later the Oda main branch got overrun by Nobunaga who took full control of Owari .
the Matsudaira who secured control of Mikawa a few decades before the time of Nobuhide were clearly hostile to the Oda whom they fought many borders battles before (and after) Nobunaga was born

From my understanding , the only reason Oda and Tokugawa later were very close is because Motoyasu (Ieyasu) and Nobunaga developped a strong friendship by the time the young Ieyasu ( Takechiyo) was detained as a hostage by Nobuhide : it happened because when Hirotada (father of Ieyasu ) was in danger of being sieged by Nobuhide (in the late 1540's ) , he had to ask the Imagawa for help , so Yoshimoto required Hirotada to send his son as hostage in exchange for his help . Thing is that Oda spies learned from it and managed to capture the hostage while he was on his way to Sunpu ( Imagawa HQ ) .

From my understanding , the friendship with Nobunaga was very strong in the early years , then faded after some time after Nobunaga became more and more consumed by ambition and power (when he later declared himself living god at the end of his life ) which isolated him more and more , but the friendship lasted at least until 1579 when Ieyasu had to let his son Nobuyasu and his wife die as they were suspected of conspiracy with the Takeda against Nobunaga

For instance , at Anegawa in 1570 , when Nobunaga is not favourite , Ieyasu on his own (Nobunaga has asked nothing ) brings 3000 of his best famed Mikawa warriors in Omi and proposed himself to be the vanguard of Nobunaga against the 8000 men of Asakura Yoshikage . Ieyasu's forces will follow Oda as far as until Echizen and the final destruction of the Asakura (which benefitted little to Tokugawa clan directly and cost money and men ) . Another instance that proves the loyalty and respect Ieyasu had for Nobunaga was when he sent a large part of his army eastward with the Oda when they decided to undertake the ambitious move of marching to Kyoto (Tokugawa had to leave his west border weak to help Oda to do it ) and had to crush the Rokkaku clan , the powerful Matsunaga Hisahide of Yamato and the Miyoshi clan on their way

The victory at Okehazama by the young Nobunaga also fascinated the young Ieyasu (Motoyasu) according to some sources , Ieyasu saw in Nobunaga a man of exceptional destiny and remained faithful to him for a good part of his life , the opposite is also true , Nobunaga never hesitated much before sending reinforcements to Ieyasu , even at one of the most difficult moment in Nobunaga's life , in the early 1570's , when he was surrounded by a powerful alliance against him made of Asai, Asakura , Miyoshi , Kennyo Kosa's warrior monks and the Takeda all supported by the spiritual authority of Shogun Ashikaga Yoshiaki , but still even in this precarious position , Nobunaga still decided to take a gamble and send the few troops he could to Tokugawa Ieyasu for the battle of Mikatagahara .

The Oda could have been completely wiped out had Asakura Yoshikaga launched his army to seige Nobunaga along the Asai , however seeing the first snow falls , he suddenly decided to retreat to Echizen for the winter , and in the same twist of fate of History , Takeda Shingen suddenly died just before he was about to steamroll the Tokugawa and submit Mikawa (Oda would have been sandwiched from east/west/north and annihilated , besides at that partcular date , the Takeda army was the most powerful in Japan ) . Later Oda helped Ieyasu at Nagashino but their relationships deteriorated after the death of Nobuyasu (1st son of Ieyasu)

But basically they were initiallly two clans totally hostile to each other , it is the personal relationship between Ieyasu and Nobunaga , as well as their political calculations (both thought it was in their best interest to be allied once Nobunaga became absolute ruler of the Owari province because it was clear that Nobunaga was willing to expand west and north in Mino where had accounts to settle to avenge his wife's father (Saito Dosan) , whereas Ieyasu's ambition was clearly to go east to claim the Imagawa's domain )

[alexjs]

Wow, great information DeMolay. Do you have any sources for more history? I've been trying to educate myself on the history a bit more.