The Debate Thread

['Gunny]

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades Fred

[Dave Strider]

Well you're a sore winner then.

['Gunny]

There is a difference between being a sore winner in a basketball game where you don't lose much, but in a war, how many people had to die for the slavocrats? THEY controlled the confederacy, the soldiers didn't fight for slavery, but the leaders of the confederacy did for the most part.

[Agamemnon]

How? If the war had been about slavery as you claim, and the soldiers did not fight for slavery, why would they fight?

[Dave Strider]

around 72,000 died in battle for the Slavocrats
around 260,000 died total for them

['Gunny]

In ww2 Germany, the soldiers did not fight for killing Jews, they fought for restoring Germany.

[Agamemnon]

So? You can't compare the two, Germans were brainwashed into believing that jews were the cause of Germany's defeat, and thus must be destroyed. So, they actually did. The CSA did no such brainwashing.

[Majonga]

So? You can't compare the two, Germans were brainwashed into believing that jews were the cause of Germany's defeat, and thus must be destroyed. So, they actually did. The CSA did no such brainwashing.

I would call the indoctrinated belief that a group of humanity is inferior and it is therefore fine to treat and own them like property as akin to brainwashing.

[Agamemnon]

It was good for the economy, but the average guys still did not actually like it. In Nazi Germany, almost everyone hated Jews due to their brainwashing. There's a difference.

[Dan the Man]

*cough cough* Oskar Schindler *cough cough*
The problem in Germany wasn't that everybody hated Jews, the problem was that they were all too afraid of Hitler and his government to make a stand.

[Agamemnon]

Which is very different from the CSA, when everybody wanted to fight for their, mind you, CONSTITUTIONAL right to secede.

[Barry Goldwater]

It was good for the economy, but the average guys still did not actually like it. In Nazi Germany, almost everyone hated Jews due to their brainwashing. There's a difference.

Not really. Domestic reaction to the Kristallnacht was still mixed, and even later in the war it's debatable how much the German masses actually knew about the Holocaust. In the South, everyone knew about slavery and damn near nobody lifted a finger about it (save a few Southern abolitionists, of course). Sure it was good for the economy, but that doesn't mean it was right, just that the planters were too greedy to hire free labor (which, given the opulence of the antebellum upper class, shows that they easily could've done) instead.

And to address the point that the North was just as racist as the South - most Northern states had by this time abolished slavery, with a few exceptions like the border states and New Jersey (which had officially abolished slavery in 1804, but kept slaves until 1865). Compare that to the South, which was pretty much all slave states. You can complain about the treatment of immigrants and be right, but frankly I'd much rather be an immigrant than a slave - at least I have the freedom to walk out and starve if my boss is treating me like , plus I'll at least get a paycheck once in a while, neither of which a Southern slave would ever get.

[Agamemnon]

But in the extremely racist south, they would have no pay anyhow, and slavery would at least give them housing and food. They also would not have had money to leave, especially if the planters had less to spend.

[Barry Goldwater]

But in the extremely racist south, they would have no pay anyhow,

This in no way helps your position, you know.

and slavery would at least give them housing and food. They also would not have had money to leave, especially if the planters had less to spend.

Again, at least as an immigrant in the North you'd at least have the freedom to leave (and starve, but hey) and receive a paycheck once in a while, hence why the North is less racist - and thus holds the moral high-ground over - the South. As a hardcore rightist, you would agree that it is better to die free (or as Castro - ironically enough - put it, 'on your feet') than live as a slave (again, as the Invincible Beard of Castro put it, 'on your knees'), yes?

And since the ACW and the end of slavery, blacks didn't have to buy said freedom, which they would have under the Confederate regime. Yet another reason why the Union winning was a good thing

[Dave Strider]

There were actually quite a few Abolitionist groups in the South in the early 1800s, I believe more than in the North.

And the North was, to an extent, more racist than the South; There weren't many freedmen in the North, so the Northerners, by their own inexperience with the Black race, were racist, while the Southerners, having been born and raised with the concept of Slavery, tended to treat their slaves at LEAST partially equal.

[Barry Goldwater]

There were actually quite a few Abolitionist groups in the South in the early 1800s, I believe more than in the North.

Impossible, abolitionist literature ended up getting banned by Southern legislators and harassment of abolitionists actively encouraged. I also expect sources, lots of them.

And the North was, to an extent, more racist than the South; There weren't many freedmen in the North, so the Northerners, by their own inexperience with the Black race, were racist, while the Southerners, having been born and raised with the concept of Slavery, tended to treat their slaves at LEAST partially equal.

Sources? At least Northerners tried to protect blacks from the Fugitive Slave Act and, you know, didn't keep them as slaves. Also, after the war, lynching happened pretty much entirely in the South. Again - you'd better be able to source these claims, otherwise I'll have to do what I did so many times in the D&D and assume the other side (in this case, you) is talking out their ass.

[Dave Strider]

I have the source, just not with me atm. It's a book that I left in my locker at school...

I'll get it monday and then post the quotes from the sections of it.

['Gunny]

I believe Harriet Tubman was a southern abolitionist

[Dave Strider]

and Nat Turner and John Brown

[Jingo Eugene]

John Brown... Correct me if I am wrong but didn't he tried to create an armed slave rebellion?