Let's talk about the JAPANESE INVASION OF KOREA (Imjin War)

[Kalnaf]

Hey guys, I am writing this thread because I wanted to raise public awareness about quite interesting moment of warfare in North Eastern Asian History

I do know that those [I would put a curse word here] executives of SEGA decided not to make any Shogun 2 Total War Expansion that has to do with the Japanese Invasion of Korea (1592–1598). But even if they don't officially make an expansion pack, I know that someone will hopefully stand up to create a MOD of it.

Well, even if that doesn't happen in any near future, I still wanted to rant something about that war which is surprisingly little known outside Asia.
Yet, it was a war of great historical significance and importance. So, it wouldn't hurt to talk about it, would it?

Now, some people wondered why the war would still 'matter' to Koreans/Japanese.

Well, ordinary Japanese people are not so historically-conscious people and they don't really care about their history, unlike how Germans take heavy responsibilities.
But, at least I can explain the Korean point of view.

Called 'Imjin War' in Korea, the history of that war, even though it happened 420 years ago, heavily resides in Korean people's psyche. Well, why would the war that happened 420 years ago matter still to the Koreans? Its because Korea's modern history has been that of a continuous turmoil. 30 years of brutal and discriminatory Japanese imperial rule damaged Korean people's pride. Until the dawn of the 20th century, despite two millenia of struggle for existence, the Korean peninsular has never been conquered by any foreign powers, defiantly standing independent. (Though Koreans lost to Chinese few times and even had to pay heavy tributes/provide hostages in the 14th century)

But, Imperial Japan's occupation and rule of Korea / usage of the Korean peninsular as a forward supply base for the Japanese war effort in Chinese front, impaired Korean people's pride and identity. At the end of WWII, Korea was liberated, not by Koreans themselves, but by other foreign powers: USA and USSR. As a result, the country was divided, and it suffered a tremendous damage to its population/industry/identity through the horrendous conflict which is now called as The Korean War.

With North Korean war threat being ever present, the political structure of Korea broke down, and military dictatorship easily took control of the country, their leaders always scaring the people with "the North Korean threat", to justify their dictatorial/oppressive rule. Korea from 1950's to 1980's, was a very poor and unhappy country, where democracy/individual rights were suppressed, while economic/industrial development was the sole purpose of living for all citizens.

So, Koreans needed something to elevate their national pride, to remind themselves of their great heritage, and to forget about the shame of being occupied by Japan and the pain of living under a military dictatorship. (That occupation was a shock, because traditionally, Koreans have deemed Japan as an inferior, barbaric pirate neighbors) Thus, Koreans were heavily educated about the Koguryeo(Korea's powerful forerunner kingdom in 3rd century~6th century)'s expansionist legacy, and the Japanese Invasion of Korea (16th century), to rekindle some national pride.
Such a movement is indeed nationalistic and should be frowned upon on the wake of cosmopolitan 21st century, yet it did matter to the battered Koreans.

Now, the military dictatorship has long withered away by the popular revolution of 1987, and Korea is a fully functioning democratic republic with a bright economic prosperity and high-tech industry. (being the 13th largest economy in the world is not a small feat) But still, the Imjin War, as a result of long-time education and media popularization, remains one of the most popular/well-known historical period in Korea. Currently, the material is exploited by Korean entertainment industry as an exciting period of conflict and adventure.


One sentence summary: YES KOREANS ARE INTERESTED IN THE IMJIN WAR 1592~1598 AND WOULD LOVE TO PLAY A GAME ABOUT IT

[Lionheart11]

Chinese dont like talking about this, the japanese were very cruel and killed many children and women.. cutting off their heads and horrible things.this is what my old shifu-sifu(teacher) told me anyway.

[Kalnaf]

Now, having that 'background' being set, here's some images and movie clips to interest you folks.

Down below is a Japanese trailer clip about Korean historical drama about this war.



Yes, this is about the Korean national hero, Admiral Yi Soon-shin, who led the Korean (Joseon) navy to victory against impossible odds,
and rained destruction and terror upon his Japanese adversaries.

This drama was immensely popular in Korea, and surprisingly, its DVDs were exported to Japan.
Apparently, Japanese people also enjoyed and liked the show.
(to their amusement of seeing their own historical generals and political figures played by foreign actors speaking in funny accents. lol)


The show's greatest moment is when it depicts one of the greatest naval engagement that happened in the entire history of Asia,
the Battle of Hansan-Island (15 August 1592).






6 Korean naval vessels lured superior Japanese fleet of 73 ships into a narrow strait where 50 Korean ships were waiting in a straight line.
When the Japanese fleet, led by Wakizaka Yasuharu, came within the bombardment range,
Korean ships changed its formation, enveloping the Japanese fleet. Then, the massacre began.




Korean naval ships were basically designed to be a floating artillery battery,
while Japanese ships were fit for pirate raids, which means it heavily relied on close-quarter combat.
Heavy Korean bombardment gave no chance for the Japanese fleet to come in close.
And, there was "Turtle Ships".






The exception with the usual Korean vessel design, was the Turtle Ship.
It was designed to speedily charge straight into enemy line-of-battle and rain fire.
For that purpose, the ship was covered with iron plating and spikes to protect itself from enemy boarding parties and musket fire.

After heavy long-range bombardment, these turtle ships penetrated the Japanese fleet.


In the end, 66 Japanese ships with its Nine Thousand Japanese soul, were lost.

The Korean fleet had 150 casualties, but did not lose a single ship.



Such was the naval battle in the Imjin War.

[crzyrndm]

The koreans only built less than 5 turtle ships if what I have been reading is correct. So while they were helpful the tactics of the koreans would have been a much greater factor in this decisive victory

[Kalnaf]

Chinese dont like talking about this, the japanese were very cruel and killed many children and women.. cutting off their heads and horrible things.this is what my old shifu-sifu(teacher) told me anyway.

Huh. Yes, the KOREANS suffered such loss, and nearly half a million Korean civilians were killed like that.
And Korean agricultural/economical structure was devastated.

Actually, in a sense, Korea never FULLY recovered from the war,
and that is part of the reason why Korea was so readily occupied by the Empire of Japan in the beginning of the 20th century.

But I don't quite see how CHINESE have anything to do with that.
Well, there are some people (Chinese and Japanese) who view this war as a conflict between Japan and China, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

This was a war in Korea. Fought by Koreans, Suffered by Koreans, and fought on Korean soil.

Ming China indeed sent 50,000 reinforcements to Korea, but most of the battles were fought between Koreans and Japanese,
because the Ming army was often unwilling to engage in heavy front-line fightings.

I understand, why would you want to fight and sacrifice lives for a foreign country?

The koreans only built less than 5 turtle ships if what I have been reading is correct. So while they were helpful the tactics of the koreans would have been a much greater factor in this decisive victory

Part of what you said is true.

Koreans built near 20 such vessels during the entire war. You are correct if you are saying that about 5 ships participated in this particular battle.

But, despite being few in numbers, it had a huge psychological impact upon Japanese navy, which is recorded in many Japanese contemporary sources. (Actually, Japanese sources mention Turtle ships more often than Korean sources)

Think about it. A dragon-headed, fire-spewing un-boardable ship ramming through the line. Ain't that scary, huh?

Down below is an example of media portrayal. It is exaggerated yes, but probable.

[PharaohsVizier]

But I don't see how CHINESE have anything to do with that.

Well, there are some people (Chinese and Japanese) who view this war as a conflict between Japan and China, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

This was a war in Korea. Fought by Koreans, Suffered by Koreans, and fought on Korean soil.

Ming China sent 50,000 reinforcements to Korea, but most of the battles were fought between Koreans and Japanese, because the Ming army was unwilling to engage in heavy fightings.

I don't believe that number is accurate. There should be far more than 50,000 Ming troops in Korea at the time. And though no doubt Koreans fought the war and took the brunt of the damage, it's not like the Chinese were idle on the side. Even at 50,000 troops, that is a significant reinforcement, one that China probably couldn't really afford.

[Kalnaf]

Then, what about land battles?

'Firearm' for Koreans, were heavy artilleries. Small-arms were mainly bows.
Japanese, on the other hand, almost had no artillery support, but heavily employed muskets and matchlocks.

Bows and arrows were still also effective, but centuries of lack of warfare in Korea have degraded
the Korean military quality at the beginning of the Imjin War.

As a result, Korean land army suffered heavy losses and casualties in early phases of the war.

For example, in one large battle (Battle of Chungju, June 8 1592), 10,000-strong Korean army was routed
because ill-disciplined Korean soldiers were unable to withstand heavy Japanese musket fire.

Koreans had strong light-cavarly units, (and they saw a lot of combat in Manchuria borders) but were not put into a good use due to tactical incompetence of its commanders.







Also, this 'invasion army' from Japan were all experienced veterans who fought in this Sengoku period, which
we gamers have been enjoying in Shogun 2 Total War. Not a fair match.

However, Korea's reliance on the defense system based on chains of heavy fortifications, saved Korea from total defeat.







Siege warfare. Most of the important land battles won by the Korean army, were from sieges.
War of attrition. Tide of Japanese army clashing agains Korean fortresses.




Then, the Korean guerrilla warfare (conducted mostly by peasant militias) dwindled Japanese supply line.

Such was the war on land during this war.

[hyzhenhok]

A game about the Japanese conquest of Korea, where the player takes control of a Japanese daimyo and invades Korea, is politically radioactive, and Sega is a Japanese company. End of story.

Unfortunate, but true.

And they certainly aren't going to do it just to indulge in a few Koreans' nationalistic fantasies about the past.

[Frei]

this should be in the historical research center section.

[mudang]

Most of what Kalnaf writes is backed up by the likes of Stephen Turnbull, historical advisor for Shogun2 and well known expert on japanese military history of the era .. read his book "Samurai Invasion".

[Vasa]

The Imjin War looks like a truly epic conflict. It's a shame whatever expansion we'll get to shogun 2 will likely be limited to Japan.

[Lionheart11]

Wow you know your history a bit better than me,takes hat off :p,I think if you asked a chinese they would have said it was their war too?was korea part of china at the time?

[Eikki]

Korea was under the protection of Ming china at the time.

[Kalnaf]

I don't believe that number is accurate. There should be far more than 50,000 Ming troops in Korea at the time. And though no doubt Koreans fought the war and took the brunt of the damage, it's not like the Chinese were idle on the side. Even at 50,000 troops, that is a significant reinforcement, one that China probably couldn't really afford.

Hmmm, I checked Wikipedia and it says

"China
1st. (1592–1593)
43,000+[1]
2nd. (1597–1598)
~75,000[2]"

Well, I am not saying that Chinese played NO PART, I am just saying that China's part is exaggerated.
And of course, it was the Royal court of Korea who desperately called out for help to Ming China,
and many Koreans were indeed thankful of that help.

A game about the Japanese conquest of Korea, where the player takes control of a Japanese daimyo and invades Korea, is politically radioactive, and Sega is a Japanese company. End of story.

Unfortunate, but true.

And they certainly aren't going to do it just to indulge in a few Koreans' nationalistic fantasies about the past.

Hmmmm, let me see... I played as the Kingdom of England / Britain (my favorite country, while I am a student of British History)
and invaded France countless times, in MTW1, MTW2, and ETW.

And oh my dear, the Creative Assembly is a company based in bloody West Sussex! Good heavens how inappropriate.



[QUOTE=Frei;9554888]this should be in the historical research center section.

Thank you for telling me that there is a historical research section. I was not aware of its existence.

Korea was under the protection of Ming china at the time.

Urh... The relationship was more like 'closely allied', then being a 'protectorate'. But it is true that Korean government officials at that time viewed Ming China as an 'elder brother' country.

-Which is the reason why Korea fought a war against newly arising Qing, as Koreans view Ming as the only 'legit' China.

"racist", "nationalist"?

Most of what Kalnaf writes is backed up by the likes of Stephen Turnbull, historical advisor for Shogun2 and well known expert on japanese military history of the era .. read his book "Samurai Invasion".

Seriously those labels apply to both of you more than anybody else.

I am absolutely delighted to see someone who did read Turnbull. Samurai Invasion was indeed informative, legitimate, and entertaining book.

[The Stig]

I would love an Imjin War DLC. Yi Sun-Sin was a beast.

[hyzhenhok]

Hmmmm, let me see... I played as the Kingdom of England / Britain (my favorite country, while I am a student of British History)
and invaded France countless times, in MTW1, MTW2, and ETW.

And oh my dear, the Creative Assembly is a company based in bloody West Sussex! Good heavens how inappropriate.

Check more recent history to see why a game about Japan invading Korea is not going to be touched. Not very attractive a prospect for a Japanese publisher when little has been forgiven between the two countries, and while Japan has spent the last 70 years trying to pretend Japanese atrocities never occurred.

Especially since this is Shogun; people will expect to play as the Japanese invader, not as the Korean defender.

I would love to see an Imjin Wars expansion pack too, but I understand why they would choose to ignore it.

Now, I would love even more to see a game where the Shogun attempts to invade the Ming and become Emperor of All Under Heaven. This was Hideyoshi's ultimate goal, of course, and invading Korea was only the first step.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

I've said it before, I'd love an expansion pack covering this era. It would be great.

[Kalnaf]

Is anyone here a fan of WARHAMMER series? Warhammer (40K or Fantasy, whichever you choose to like) series is a product of GAMES WORKSHOP(GW).
GW's lead miniature sculptors, Perry Brothers, also make Historical Warfare games, which also include the theme of Imjin war of Japan-Korea.

Here are links to some of the Korean army set that Alan Perry designed. (They are currently sold in Perry Brothers' website)
These minatures are incredibly accurate to historical reality, and are extremely well detailed.

-If any modder wishes to gain some sort of reference, these miniature figures would be a good start.-

http://lonelygamers.blogspot.com/2010/12/perry-miniatures-choson-army-armoured.html

http://lonelygamers.blogspot.com/2010/02/choson-korean-army-heavy-cavalry-perry.html

http://lonelygamers.blogspot.com/2010/02/choson-korean-army-guerrilla-archers.html

http://lonelygamers.blogspot.com/2009/07/more-perry-miniatures-chosen-army-heavy.html

http://lonelygamers.blogspot.com/2009/07/perry-miniatures-chosen-army-artillery.html

http://lonelygamers.blogspot.com/2009/06/perry-miniatures-chosen-army-archers.html

http://lonelygamers.blogspot.com/2008/11/perry-miniatures-choson-army-garrison.html






(And of course, Perry Brothers' SAMURAI ARMY SET is famous too)

[Finnegan]

Pardon my pre-judging, Kalaf, but I'm guessing you're neither Korean nor Japanese?

[Kalnaf]

Check more recent history to see why a game about Japan invading Korea is not going to be touched. Not very attractive a prospect for a Japanese publisher when little has been forgiven between the two countries, and while Japan has spent the last 70 years trying to pretend Japanese atrocities never occurred.

Especially since this is Shogun; people will expect to play as the Japanese invader, not as the Korean defender.

I would love to see an Imjin Wars expansion pack too, but I understand why they would choose to ignore it.

Now, I would love even more to see a game where the Shogun attempts to invade the Ming and become Emperor of All Under Heaven. This was Hideyoshi's ultimate goal, of course, and invading Korea was only the first step.

1. Did you even read any of my posts? It should be obvious that I KNOW

2.
MTW2: Kingdoms - Britannia. Its titled Britannia. And we can play as the Norwegian invaders.
ETW: NTW. Napoleon. Yes Napoleon. Yet you get to play as Wellington.

3.
If the game was about Imperial Japan conquering Korea and defeating Russia in the battle of Tsushima Strait, yes it would indeed be very problematic.
It would draw a lot of criticism and bickering arguments. BUT IMJIN WAR IS OF A DIFFERENT MATTER

4.
That's what Hideyoshi proclaimed, but the whole invasion was more about domestic politics.
Hideyoshi probably did not believe that his army could march into the heartlands of China.
He had other reasons.

He had a need to point the grudge against his regime/political instability that was rampant
in an only recently unified Japan, to outside. His goal was to stabilize his regime.

Well, actually in the Battle of Sekihagara, the combatants were the ones who did not waste away their soldiers in the Imjin War!
(Tokugawa Ieyasu wink wink nudge nudge)

Pardon my pre-judging, Kalaf, but I'm guessing you're neither Korean nor Japanese?

한국이 모국이지만 별 문제될 것은 없습니다.
でも,日本に好感を持っているし,日本語もできます。

It wouldn't really matter here.
I am just an American college student majoring in history, and I am very interested in promoting the story of the historically significant period to be better received by people.