Shogun 2...fastest I've gotten bored with a TW game.

[M2TWRocks]

I've been a huge defender of CA and it's games, and I'm well aware that S2TW is doing very well in sales, but what can I say, I got bored with this title almost immediately. I'm quite certain this mainly has to do with the non-existant variety between the factions which normally is what kept me excited about replaying the campaigns over and over in past TW games.

It's been said before a ton of times, but, why in the world would I replay the campaign with a different faction? They're identical both aesthetically and functionally. It's like playing ETW on NTW's map, but the only factions are England versus blue England versus yellow England versus green England times 10. I thought this game was going to have at least one or two unique units distributed between the factions, and something, anything, to distinguish them from each other.

This is probably the most polished release of a TW title; The movies, music, and mood are wonderful. But the core of the game is dried up and dull, lacking imagination and spice on virtually every level. The naval aspect can be completely ignored, leaving you with yari ashigari versus yari ashigari for about 10,000 battles of monotony.

I sure hope R2TW is next. And a new engine would be nice.

[Charsi]

Well I played a different faction and deliberately tried to use their key unit. This is after playing as Oda and basically winning with ashigaru. Keeps it fresh and interesting to try and make heavy use of monks, in my case. If I had the SE i'd be playing Hattori, no doubt.

Of course i'm just not very good at this game and can't beat the higher difficulties yet.

[M2TWRocks]

Thanks for your response. I understand what you're saying, but that leaves me with the same predicament. It's still the same exact unit, with slightly better stats. Every time I fight another faction, I know I am going to see the same exact units I have. This is true for EVERY faction.

[emperor77]

Yup, i agree. The most polished Total War ever but by far the most repetitive. Still at 40 hours with it, haven't touched it for weeks and thinking about uninstalling probably gonna wait for the patch tho.

[Erwin Rommel]

It's been said before a ton of times, but, why in the world would I replay the campaign with a different faction?

Coz I knew who was the daimyo their? Coz I know that the daimyo name and 3d model of Uesugi Kenshin does not merely evoke the feeling of.

"Oh... its that monk daimyo again."

Rather its.

"OHHHHH!!! Its the Dragon of Echigo, I am playing him know..........so sweeeeeet, now lets see where the hell are the Takeda, specially Shingen. Must not disappoint, the avatar of Bishamonten"

Then with another campaign.

"OHHHHH!!11 Its the One Eyed Dragon of Oushu, awesome..... My, that kabuto really is huge, now, lets see him steamrolling the Kanto plains, now that in this game there is not Toyotomi, muwhahahaha"

Then another.

"OH!!!!!!!!!! Its Hanzo-dono, so cool, must have spread the ninja fear in all of the Kansai region."

And another.

"OHHHHHHHH!!1 Mori Motonari, oh look I even have his 3 sons, how friggin cool is that, now must use the legendary Mori cunning to good use. *proceeds to take potshots of Chosokabe*"

Yet another.

"We the Shimazu are the true heirs of the Minamoto Shogunate, how dare those usurping Ashikaga occupy the Capital, no more, come my yumi spamming Yoshihiro, show them why they call the Shimazu Army as the Shimazu-oni."

Still another.

"OHHHH I'm playing the Takeda now.....YUKIMURA!! OYAKATASAMA! YUKIMURA! OYAKATASAMA!"




I do not focus on mere units to get gameplay, the familiar names themselves specially if you have an Akechi for the Oda is already enjoyable. Tis sad that none of you see to it to brush up on their history, it adds some enjoyment, now they are not some faceless, hard to pronounce minor japanese warlords, but rather historical characters whom you admire and have a kabuto fetish....err. yeah.

[ReignTerror]

to a point you are correct but also... it has been the same for most TW games... ETW basically had 10 different types of the same unit and called it different... i mean how many line infantry can you have??

the beauty of this game is that it doesnt'get lost in all that jumble and brings back a simple yes deep system... like chess... it is def prone to wear off faster I admit... but it's just lot of fun... every campaign I've run has had completely different results... AI Oda dying on turn one... AI oda domination eastern japan... so on and so forth

i hope mods add some more unique units to add variety even is some are not so historical

Rommel put it correct these are true historical figures with deep story... sorta like the feeling of controlling Napoleon as he marches on Russia...

the units are uniquely detailed and the attention to it is astounding... mods will only make this even better

[Beld]

I've been a huge defender of CA and it's games, and I'm well aware that S2TW is doing very well in sales, but what can I say, I got bored with this title almost immediately.

But the real question is... what do you think about M2TW?

No but seriously. This being a discussion board for TW, this is a valid subject of discussion!

I've found that I'm putting a LOT more time into this game up-front, in comparison to the others. By the same token, I'm also getting bored/burned out.

Happened to me with my personal favorite, RTW, until mods expanded the depth and complexity enough that I was engaged again (happens to me with Civ games too).

However, I see the ceiling for what mods can do to improve or expand S2TW, and it seems low compared to MTW & RTW, considering they span a good portion of Eurasia after mods. Not to mention Empire.

I think that's the nature of this historical period in the east, which is much more about inner turmoil and localized conflicts, and fear and isolation from those dirty southern barbarians and their uncouth ways.

But with all of that said, CA still accomplished their goal of an magnum opus, and a 'back to basics', polished product, which seems to be all the rage in the industry right now.

[walrus2517]

Yes, a lot of folks are hitting a wall in regards to replay value after a campaign or two, or around the 40 hour mark it seems. I agree 100% with the OP as I have said in just about every other thread in this regard.

However, as someone who played 40 hours when it was released but hasn't played again in weeks, 40 hours of gameplay for a $50 title isn't bad. We are all spoiled by the hundreds of hours we got out of RTW and M2TW, and even ETW/NTW for many of us.

The next game should have a bigger cultural scope regardless of era (Rome-Greek,Eastern,Barbarian, Medieval-European,Eastern,Muslim), so inherently we won't have the issues with S2 where everyone is basically one culture with one fighting style.

[emperor77]

Rommel put it correct these are true historical figures with deep story... sorta like the feeling of controlling Napoleon as he marches on Russia...

That doesn't really mean much if you don't know your Japanese history. I don't know much about feudal Japan and thus those historical figures mean absolutely nothing to me. I imagine this being the same with most of the european and american total war fans. Everybody knows Napoleon and his exploits while only a few know about Japanese generals of the Sengoku era.

[Beld]

However, as someone who played 40 hours when it was released but hasn't played again in weeks, 40 hours of gameplay for a $50 title isn't bad. We are all spoiled by the hundreds of hours we got out of RTW and M2TW, and even ETW/NTW for many of us.

So true. I'd say, since most of us, as strategy fans, (or more specifically, TBS game fans) are spoiled to a large amount of replay value in our games.

I played Dragon Age 2 recently. Got a good 40 hours of play out of that game... I'll never go back to it. In that sense, I'd say all TW games, in relation to the average in the market, hold their value to spend ratio quite well. Including S2, but to a lesser degree (so far as we can tell).

[M2TWRocks]

ETW has different countries, cultures, regions, maps, and even the european countries who were the most similar, had unique units. There were also unique skins for all Indian, Ottoman, American Indian, African units, pirates, etc.

Surely there was more intrigue and variety in Japanese culture? Or maybe I'm completely wrong on this. Maybe all ashigari looked exactly the same, with the exact same uniform and spear. It just got old after just 1 solid playthrough for me. But then again, I grew up in the 80's when there were ninja's and samurai in every cartoon, tons of movies, and pretty much every friend you had was practicing with ninja stars, and EVERYONE wanted to buy a katana...even though you knew deep down it was a hokey, cheap ripoff, with a dull blade.

I'm bored. What can I say.

And I agree about the value for your money...it's just significantly less than previous titles. I put over 400 hours into ETW, 200 into NTW, and maybe 50 into S2TW. I think part of it is the engine, despite looking slightly better with each title, is still the SAME engine.

[ReignTerror]

That doesn't really mean much if you don't know your Japanese history. I don't know much about feudal Japan and thus those historical figures mean absolutely nothing to me. I imagine this being the same with most of the european and american total war fans. Everybody knows Napoleon and his exploits while only a few know about Japanese generals of the Sengoku era.

not everyone knows about nappy or cares... I got into that time in history due to TW... before I thought he was a short guy who had his hand in his shirt all the time...

same with Rome... I couldn't care about a bunch of stuck up orgy filled barbarians killing other barbarians... but after Rome I started reading up on it...

just saying

[emperor77]

So true. I'd say, since most of us, as strategy fans, (or more specifically, TBS game fans) are spoiled to a large amount of replay value in our games.

I like my total wars to last long to be honest.

In comparison to the 40 S2 hours i've played 298 hours of Empire and 230 hours of Napoleon and countless hours of Medieval 2 and Rome.

[M2TWRocks]

not everyone knows about nappy or cares... I got into that time in history due to TW... before I thought he was a short guy who had his hand in his shirt all the time...

same with Rome... I couldn't care about a bunch of stuck up orgy filled barbarians killing other barbarians... but after Rome I started reading up on it...

just saying

He IS a short guy with his hand in his shirt all the time!



Or this:

[ReignTerror]

I like my total wars to last long to be honest.

In comparison to the 40 S2 hours i've played 298 hours of Empire and 230 hours of Napoleon and countless hours of Medieval 2 and Rome.

how much of that was vanilla tho??

[b_133]

Coz I knew who was the daimyo their? Coz I know that the daimyo name and 3d model of Uesugi Kenshin does not merely evoke the feeling of.

"Oh... its that monk daimyo again."

Rather its.

"OHHHHH!!! Its the Dragon of Echigo, I am playing him know..........so sweeeeeet, now lets see where the hell are the Takeda, specially Shingen. Must not disappoint, the avatar of Bishamonten"

Then with another campaign.

"OHHHHH!!11 Its the One Eyed Dragon of Oushu, awesome..... My, that kabuto really is huge, now, lets see him steamrolling the Kanto plains, now that in this game there is not Toyotomi, muwhahahaha"

Then another.

"OH!!!!!!!!!! Its Hanzo-dono, so cool, must have spread the ninja fear in all of the Kansai region."

And another.

"OHHHHHHHH!!1 Mori Motonari, oh look I even have his 3 sons, how friggin cool is that, now must use the legendary Mori cunning to good use. *proceeds to take potshots of Chosokabe*"

Yet another.

"We the Shimazu are the true heirs of the Minamoto Shogunate, how dare those usurping Ashikaga occupy the Capital, no more, come my yumi spamming Yoshihiro, show them why they call the Shimazu Army as the Shimazu-oni."

Still another.

"OHHHH I'm playing the Takeda now.....YUKIMURA!! OYAKATASAMA! YUKIMURA! OYAKATASAMA!"




I do not focus on mere units to get gameplay, the familiar names themselves specially if you have an Akechi for the Oda is already enjoyable. Tis sad that none of you see to it to brush up on their history, it adds some enjoyment, now they are not some faceless, hard to pronounce minor japanese warlords, but rather historical characters whom you admire and have a kabuto fetish....err. yeah.

Oh come on.
It's a game, not all of us are history geeks and not all of us feel like reading up on everything so we can get a feel for the game.

I'm not familiar with the historical details of the eras portrayed in Rome, M2 or ETW either but I didn't have the problems I'm having with Shogun 2 today.

I love Shogun 2 but the complete lack of variety to ANYTHING in the game is a big problem with it.
If you take RTW and compare the two in terms of differences between factions and replay value, the comparison really, really doesn't flatter Shogun 2.
You had 4 completely different cultures - Roman, Barbarian, Greek and Middle Eastern. Some factions like the Seleucids or the Armenians were a mix of two or more cultures.

Everything was different, the look of the units, their function, the buildings design, the settlements design, the generals, even the pictures attached to the financial reports were a nice touch.
Then even within each culture you had tons of unique units to every faction, and that led to varying playing styles and battle strategies as well - commanding a Greek phalanx-heavy army wasn't anything near the same experience as commanding a Roman legionarre-heavy army or a Parthian mounted archers army. Each faction had a unique starting position which led to different landscapes to fight on as well, so even more variety i.e fighting on the lush plains of Northern Italy vs the deserts of Africa or the snowy forests of western-central Europe, completely different.

While I think that CA could have done more to help with that lack of variety (Maybe actually make a faction's "strong units" an integral part of it's strategy, etc Uesugi would field monk heavy armies), it's hard to pin it entirely on them. It's just the setting of the game which in my humble opinion is not "epic" enough in scale for a modern TW game.

The series has to return to the large scale that the games had pre-Napoleon. And if it demands a new engine, so bet it. I'm not sure the fans would continue to buy games that lose your interest after 50-60 hours.

[emperor77]

how much of that was vanilla tho??

There are mods for Shogun 2 yet i still don't play it, what's your point? The reason i don't play Shogun is that it is all the same and seeing as even more of the game is locked up i doubt it will ever change, while the other titles had enough variety and history that is relevant to me in them to keep me interested in trying out mods.

[M2TWRocks]

how much of that was vanilla tho??

Just about all of my time playing ETW(400+hours) and NTW(200+hours) was with vanilla. I played around with strictly graphical mods, but could never find any all inclusive ones that suited my taste.

[old_dude]

Well there are a few good points so far. I agree with M2TW, the lack of uniqueness in each individual clan is a tad disappointing.

However Erwin does bring up a good point. Being a product of American public education, I have never heard of this time period, nor the historical figures outside of video games and Asian cinema. So when I come across a family name I don't recognize I head over to Samurai Archives and read up on them.

As far as I'm concerned replay value stems from two sources; eye candy and substance. In comparing M2(the only other TW title I've played) with S2, M2 wins in eye-candy but S2 wins in substance. After three campaigns with S2 I have seen every unit in the Sp campaign and have fought against almost every color combination on the map. Yet I have just started my fourth and don't feel like slowing down since I still feel extremely challenged to win.

M2 was another story. After my first few campaigns I had yet to see many of the units and had not ventured into each theater of war. But M2 wound up getting uninstalled for a few months, with half of the game unseen, until I discovered this mod community. The reason I did that is in my first winning campaign on H with Venice the largest battle I fought in the entire campaign was against less than half a stack. M2 had no inherent challenge for me so it got scrapped despite all of the eye-candy I had yet to encounter.

[SnowRaven]

you rather have fictional units then historically correct ones? Im at 122 hours with Takeda, Shimazu, Tokugawa, Oda, Uesagi and Date completed on long campaigns. If it wasnt for my finals I would be finishing up Hojo, Chokesabe and Mori