Real weapons analysis

[Lord Baal]

I propose to discuss the real characteristics and usage in battle (for part of the ashigaru and the samurai) in the real Japan depicted in the game and how accurate (or inaccurate, for balance sake's) are those characteristics putted in the game and how mod's like the total realism could represent them better if is needed, or even add some weapons left out (any?).

This is motivated because I find in a web page http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Teppo where is stated that the Yumi (long bow) only have like 30 meters of killing range, and a maximum range of 380 mt, at which I suppose the arrow will only lightly wound your enemy in the best of the cases.

Also the killing range for the Teppo is stated as 50 mt but it's maximum as far as 500! So a really lucky (or unlucky) shoot can still hurt (or even kill??) some one relative far away from the main line of battle (Like I don't know, 150 mt, supposing that the deviation of the bullet is to one side or up, not to the ground and the shoot is on the head or something vulnerable).

Besides this there's some confusion (me included) in what kind of spear the ashigaru should carry and how common where the katanas and their role in combat.

I kindly ask to post in a organized fashion, dealing with each weapon, try to put the sources or at least name them and respect every else's opinions (so far they make sense and are respectful too).

So after a few days arguing about a weapon some one would post a resume, like the next example, and from there we'll keep discussing (if some one do not agree with the results) and so on. Ill start with some previous analysis that I made of the bow and the teppos, I already posted this in other thread, but since it belongs to this thread too here it is (edited a lot):

.-Yumi:

-Range:
I was really shocked the first time I saw the numbers of the real range of the yumis. Their size is deceiving! I believed they where almost as good as a long bow (the English one). Now I see how the ashigaru can be using one in a matter of 6 months, but more on this latter...

To be historically correct the range of the yumi should be lowered, a lot.

-Viability and use:
Now is latter: Having stated the range of the yumi, now it comes another issue. Was it really that popular in war, to be employed in the hundreds by ashigaru as depicted on the game, or they where mostly/only used by the samurai, like in the first game where there are no ashigaru archers?

As far as I'm informed I can conclude that the yumi was a traditional weapon used mostly by the samurai, and said samurai's where also capable close combat fighters not as depicted in the game. At least at the beginning of the era. Thought one perhaps can recruit/equip a lot of peasants with bows I doubt that both the quality of this bows and the unit it self would be as high as the samurai's. On the other hand you can make that up with numbers.

.-Matchlocks (Or Teppo?)

-Range:
The matchlock seems to need a increase on this departament, to be clear I mean the guns and not the units carrying them. And I think that there's a way to represent this without giving the matchlock units a crazy illogical range:
It seems that the range of the projectile fired from the gun and the range of the unit are two different values. So let's say we put the bullet range with a 500 max range with a reduced power from distance, I think the value on the Damage at Range Effectiveness column on the projectiles table is the one that should be used. And the unit carrying the muskets should have a range of say 50 to 100 mt, with a bad accuracy, so any stray shoot can still on theory keep going and hit some one else? Albeit with a reduced force.
This way both the behavior of the unit using matchlocks and the behavior of the weapon it self will be more accurate.

And then there is the Oyumi!!!! (Crossbow) This weapon have not been represented in the game and according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyumi it was a pretty common weapon for the ashigaru!

Thanks for reading

[vietanh797]

about Yumi there is 2 types
1 is made for Samurai and 1 for troops
depend on what type they have total different performance
I read somewhere that Samurai Yumi type have almost as long range and as effective as Mongol bow

[Lord Baal]

Indeed there where different types of bows for samurai and ashigaru, in the source I give in the last post they give those numbers regarding the samurai one. And I don't find any source giving the samurai yumi's the power of the mongol one, being this one of the most powerful (if not the most) bows in the history of mankind. I would appreciate a lot if you can remember the source since I do like the range of the bows now in the game, nerfing them that much for historical accuracy would be sad, but necessary if there's no other way.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Almost everyone had katana as this was the most "reliable" weapon one can have. Not all katanas were of the made-in-1-year quality though.

[Lord Baal]

What do you mean with 1 year quality?

[GnaReffotsirk]

Made-in-1-year quality. The special ones, imbued with the spirits of the ancestors. But in reality they're so hard that with excellent skill, it can break other low quality katana. Low quality katana can only keep its sharpness after a few pounding/clash/bone hit, but these ones are good.

Anyway, point is that katana can be massed produced though in low quality, and almost everyone must have it. Spears, halberds, polearms, etc. are not as reusable as it is expressed in game. Roman soldiers keep formation when engaged, but not this one.

Katana is always the weapon that makes the last cut in battle.

So to speak.

[Lord Baal]

Exactly that's what I was talking about. For example the yari samurai can use their spears in a charge (either making it or receiving it) and after a while draw their swords and keep fighting similar to the vanilla yari ashigaru. The same applies to almost any other samurai unit.

[Twosocks]

A Yumi was effectively shot at about 10 m

[Lord Baal]

Really that short? But the samurai quality yumi or the ashigaru one?
Also, I know their ranges where relative short, but what about maximum range? Or better yet, the maximum range at which it can injure or disable a combatant, both armored and unarmored?
This source http://books.google.com/books?id=wExlaM1ov0sC&pg=PA117 claims that the yumi, the samurai one at least, had a effective range of 50 meters (about 164 feet) or 100 meters (328 feet) if accuracy was not an issue.
Now, other sources give the yumi a relative inferior effective range (from 10 to 35 meters), but I think they refer (without explicitly saying it) to the ashigaru bow.

Still the bow, like it or not was responsible for up to 86% casualties in battles from the mid-fourteenth to the mid-fifteenth centuries. From the mid-fifteenth to the mid-sixteenth centuries that percentage was down to 41.3%, but still a pretty high number.

This is taken from Budo Perspectives, ed. Alexander Bennett; Chapter 7 - Budo as a Concept: An analysis of budo's characteristics. Irie Kohei.
This work cites the following japanese publication (Suzuki Masaya. banana no kubitori: Sengoku kassen isetsu {Swords and head taking: Another view of Sengoku period battles). Heibonsha, 2000.

I would like to know if any other author or source support this.

[Twosocks]

For the citation regarding use in war it's from Budo Perspectives, ed. Alexander Bennett; Chapter 7 - Budo as a Concept: An analysis of budo's characteristics. Irie Kohei.

This work cites the following japanese publication (Suzuki Masaya. banana no kubitori: Sengoku kassen isetsu {Swords and head taking: Another view of Sengoku period battles). Heibonsha, 2000.

"According to Suzuki Masaya, in battles from the mid-fourteenth to the mid-fifteenth centuries out of 554 examples, the percentage of casualties caused by arrows was 86%, sword cuts 8.3%, rocks 2.7%, spears and stab woounds 1.1%. From the mid-fifteenth to the mid-sixteenth centuries 1461 examples are analyzed with arrow wounds at 41.3%, guns 19.6%, spears and stab wounds 17.9%, rocks 10.3%, and 3% for swords."
-------------------------------------------------------
From Armed martial Arts of Japan. G. Cameron Hurst. 1998. Yale University Press.

Distance shooting was done as a competition in fields ranging from 360-410m in length from 1570's or so onwards.

A period quote stated "For shooting an enemy on the battlefield, one needs, moreover, to practice shooting at a distance of seven or eight ken (approx. 2m) to be able to penetrate his armor. But in toshiya (distance & quantity archery competitions held in temple halls and scored by the number of arrows that completed a full flight down the hall without hitting the roof, pillars, or floor, so no real targeting otherwise), by sending an arrow light as a hemp stalk a distance of 66 ken, how can one hope to pierce armor?"

Now, toshiya also had a champion who shot 8,133 arrows (out of a total of 13053 shot) in 24 hours, so they're using a very light flight arrow and basically shooting rapid-fire...

This was all in the 1600'-1700's.

There are four types of bows; long bows, half bows, small bows and short bows.
The Long Bows are almost seven feet in length and there are two kinds. One is called "Shigetou,'' which was used by Samurais, and the other is called "Kazuyumi," which was used generally by soldiers. "Shigetou" means "coiled rattan," and this material wrapped the body of this bow. The grip of the long bow is very low position. Considering the skill and training this requires, in combination with the high vulnerability of the bow itself (bamboo, wood = delicate to climate), I doubt this was the bow of the masses. The effective range of the long bow is 60 yards, of the half bow it is 30 yards, and the small bow is effective up to perhaps 12 yards, depending on target. An armoured target (ie. Samurai) would have to be shot at close range and even then must be hit at unarmored parts.
The Halfbow and small bows are specialzed weapons used mostly by horsearchers (which leaves out the ashigaru). This leaves the shortbow, made out of bamboo. It is cheap but has no great range but probably served well for close up volleys.

With the bow comes of course the arrow, I know the Japanes used a wide range of different arrows (yes even the whistling ones ). Again I doubt that the "common archer" (ie. Ashigaru) got any high quality arrows to shoot. Which means he got a shittty bow with arrows. Not good if you have to shoot at an armoured samurai charging at you

[Lord Baal]

Which means he got a shittty bow with arrows. Not good if you have to shoot at an armoured samurai charging at you

Being a ashigaru was bad, really!

Thanks a lot for the info! I was under the impression that the bow the samurai used while riding horse was the same they used while mobilizing on foot (if they ever really mobilized this way).

But this leave me with a doubt. How in hell did the relative poor Japanese archery to make such huge percentage of casualties?

Also, why don't we have the Oyumi early on the game?

[Twosocks]

But this leave me with a doubt. How in hell did the relative poor Japanese archery to make such huge percentage of casualties?

Considering that the Samurais are estimated about 6-8% of the total population and not all of them well equipped, not all of great skill etc. that leaves a mass of unarmored peasants mixed with a few lesser skilled Samurais in armies to kill easily

Btw only high-ranking samurai warriors were allowed to fight on horse-back.

[Lord Baal]

Ok so by now we could say the the real yumi should be represented in the game like this?

Yumi Samurai:
Max Range: 380 meters
Effective Range: 50 to 60 meters (Don't know how this range could be represented in the game? Maybe giving the arrow a good damage but having it loose the damage rapidly so when it pass that range it only makes half or less of the damage?)
Min Range: 2 meters
Damage: ??? Really not sure here. From what it seems the archers should almost kill in one shoot any ashigaru that get near them more than 50 meters, but the samurai are different.

Yumi Ashigaru:
Max Range: Less than 380??? meters
Effective Range: 15 to 30 meters (Don't know how this range could be represented in the game? Maybe giving the arrow a good damage but having it loose the damage rapidly so when it pass that range it only makes half or less of the damage?)
Min Range: 2 meters
Damage: ??? Really not sure here either, but must be a very low value. And At maximum range they should not kill anything but by mere grace of the gods! At medium range, like 60 meters they should do heavy casualties to unarmed foes.

[vietanh797]

Cant remember it but I pretty sure it is quite long cus Bow in beginning of Samurai era is their main weapon
Around that time (700 A.D) samurai often get in a "Bow duel" between 2 general result if end up in one side dead because arrow often bring battle to an end right after that
After the bow lost their highest position to the spear it still continue as a quite deadly weapon and the samurai who fire the first arrow in battle use a arrow have arrow head create strange sound when fly
That is a signal to begin the battle too
Katana/Tachi never became a main weapon for samurai in battle before the Toyotomi unite Japan
A samurai use spear is much more respected than a samurai use sword
If you check the background of famous Samurai/General in service in Sengoku Jidai or before most of them don't use sword

[Lord Baal]

Thanks for the input vietanh! I assume you are not a native English speaker (neither am I). Any way I still believe that the range of the bows in the game are far greater than what they should be. Now I'm kinda of interested in knowing the max range of the mean ashigaru yumi, and it's effective range. Also how much damage should they inflict in the game? Now they do like 0.35, can't remember.

[vietanh797]

Most the info I got is Ashigaru mainly use bow in straight shooting(like a gun)
which mean it reduce their range a lot but it also make the max range ~ effective range for them

I can say for sure that Ashigaru bow have lower range than teppo
history note that Japanese generals was "suprised" that Korea bow shot further than gun shot when they invade Korea which mean normally Yumi bow for Ashigaru have lower range than teppo

And yes i am not a native English speaker

[Lord Baal]

So a max range about a 150 mt would be correct? Or even less?

[Condottiere SOG]

"According to Suzuki Masaya, in battles from the mid-fourteenth to the mid-fifteenth centuries out of 554 examples, the percentage of casualties caused by arrows was 86%, sword cuts 8.3%, rocks 2.7%, spears and stab woounds 1.1%. From the mid-fifteenth to the mid-sixteenth centuries 1461 examples are analyzed with arrow wounds at 41.3%, guns 19.6%, spears and stab wounds 17.9%, rocks 10.3%, and 3% for swords."
-------------------------------------------------------
From Armed martial Arts of Japan. G. Cameron Hurst. 1998. Yale University Press.

Distance shooting was done as a competition in fields ranging from 360-410m in length from 1570's or so onwards.

A period quote stated "For shooting an enemy on the battlefield, one needs, moreover, to practice shooting at a distance of seven or eight ken (approx. 2m) to be able to penetrate his armor. But in toshiya (distance & quantity archery competitions held in temple halls and scored by the number of arrows that completed a full flight down the hall without hitting the roof, pillars, or floor, so no real targeting otherwise), by sending an arrow light as a hemp stalk a distance of 66 ken, how can one hope to pierce armor?"

Now, toshiya also had a champion who shot 8,133 arrows (out of a total of 13053 shot) in 24 hours, so they're using a very light flight arrow and basically shooting rapid-fire...

This was all in the 1600'-1700's.

Compelling for sure and of use to acknowledge my mod(max range 380...deadliness set to less than 30 yards @0.10%(percentage for half chance hits). Damage setting is .66 which translates into a high mortality rate for a charging unit and a possible rout. At long range, only soldiers hit by arrows will fall. Samurai will survive better than ashigaru...which means you have to be cunning and sneaky on the battlefield. A definite challenge as I know actual Samurai avoided archers whenever possible...and that whole armies were decimated by arrows. Also that yumi ashigaru have been the only infantry in some armies filling a double role...for reasons of lightness, speed and surprise. For the Samurai, it will lend to creedence the yumi having been the primary weapon for 4-500 years.

[SaburoSakai]

Most ashigaru never had katana, it was not allowed to be held by peasentry. Majority of samurai had katana . That is the simple truth in it.

[Lord Baal]

@ Condottiere SOG, so the yumi samuari in your mod have longer range than the ashigaru ones?