[Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia

[Majkl]

I always liked levy troops dressed in their own clothes ,especially that white cloacks etc..
But funny is that even I am checking this forum so long I did not notice that first pic in thus thread until now.
btw + rep for units

[Matthæus]

I always liked levy troops dressed in their own clothes ,especially that white cloacks etc..
But funny is that even I am checking this forum so long I did not notice that first pic in thus thread until now.
btw + rep for units

that one on first page is a basis for armored troops. right now I'm editing that model to be even more authentic.

[Majkl]

Dunno If u gonna use some custom music so posting just because I like it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypQs2JH85f4
Veľkomoravský chorál - based on "Kievan letters" ..my english suck, dunno how to translate it Kievan papers are composed from 7 parchment papers which contains 38 prays at all. It is the oldest glagolitic alphabet. This alphabet is very close to the very first alphabet of Cyril and Methodius. This paper belong to "libelli missae" category (dont know hwat is it thou ) That is what I found about this song.

[demagogos nicator]

Nice to see a mod which is trying to represent Great Moravian faction (as well as the other factions) historicaly. I very like the concept of your mod and cross fingers for you
May I suggest you to use the cross of Mikulčice instead of an Moravian eagle as Great Moravian coat of arms? The Eagle became the Coat of Arms of Moravian Margravate (March) only in the second half of 13th century and I doubt it has any connection with Great Moravia.

Cross of Mikulčice:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:K%...ul%C4%8Dic.png
if you do not like the cross maybe you could also use the falconer:
http://www.ved.sk/RODNA%20CESTA/RC%2...y.sokoliar.jpg

[Von Pressburg]

Cannot really help much here, but I read about some interesting findings near Bojná, Slovakia. Obviously there was some kind of fortified town of great importance, almost comparable to Nitra. There was findings of swords, jewellery, but most important, of bronze bells (probably part of a church predating Saint Cyril and Metodius) and a portable altar. These are copies of plaques found there http://www.numizmat.sk/projekty/?projekt=163 , they could be used as an inspiration for symbols for the GM

[AnthoniusII]

Thank you for your help guys!

[Alucard31]

Hello guys!

With total respect to this mod, I must suggest that according to the newest researches I know, the slavic state called "Greater Moravia" ("Megale Moravia" in Constantine VII's De Administrando Imperio) is located around the ancient Sirmium. Certain researchers (hungarian ones: Imre Boba, Gyula Kristó and other ones: Segna Toru, M. Eggers) suggest that Greater Moravia was "somewhere" in the south, at the rivers Morava/Sava/Danube or at the Maros/Kőrös/Tisza.

These researchers also state that the northern slavic state which is discussed here was called "Lesser Moravia".

This is no offence. I just thought you may be interested about this

[Alucard31]

Sorry, I meant "Great Moravia" and "Little Moravia". It's been a time since I practiced English last, so sorry for mistakes To sum it up, they think the northern state in nowadays Czech Republic was called "Little Moravia", because it wasn't as old as "Great Moravia" in the south.

[Majkl]

Actually there are more Moravians than one. Our scholar calls Great Moravia simply Morava or Stara Morava. Magna Moravia as mentioned in byzantine sources can also mean "Morava far away" or "Morava Superior" because it was a lot farer than Morava which was e.g. in Todays Serbia.
By the way I do not respect Hungarian scholars because of their subjectivity in history. They also tought us that Hungarians came into Danubian basin as first and it was nunpopulated etc. Such statements are ridiculous. Do not want to make some flame here or something but it all depends on translation of word "Magna". Ones translate it as "great" another as "far" and so on.

[Alucard31]

I have to debate with some statements of yours, Hungarian scholars are not that evil kind of bastards in general Including myself, even if I'm just about to be a historician. But this is truly OFF-topic; I just wanted to mention that point of view above. But of course, I'm interested in other solutions as well, like the one you've mentioned.

[Majkl]

Well I am not in position to judge magyar on any other scholars cuz I do not know them. Just saying what I experienced. No hate at all.

[demagogos nicator]

There is quite a debate among historicians concerning the location of the slavic state from the IX. century known to us as Great Moravia (actualy this name was first used by the Roman emperor Constantine Porphyrogenitos more than 40 years after the state cease to exist). The above mentioned theory of Boba and others is supported by some statements in the Frankish conterporary sources (however, Frankish chroniclers did not necesary have to be 100 % accurate about the geography of the areas where they may never had been). One of the main argument reversing this theory is that acording archeological research area around Syrmium seems to be very spearly populated in IX. century in contrary to the area of Todays Moravia and Western Slovakia.

Off topic: I myself have a great respect to every scholar no matter what nationality is he. Unfortunately, I must also admitt that I experinced the unwillingness of some Hungarian scholars to accept the clear evidence supporting the contradictional theory. However, I do not want to judge Hungarian scholars in general neither to say that they are all evil kind of bastards

[Alucard31]

It is true that the supporters of this theory don't have too much archeological evidences for it So this is just a theory so far. However, there are analogies since there were two Serbias and Croatias as well. OFF: I also don't want to protect some of the Hungarian scholars; sometimes they have weird theories But this can be true for other countries as well

[Majkl]

Actually I know two version of Great Moravia which has been lieing in todays Czech and Slovakia. One from official sources which are used to teach student in schools and one from other autors which I believe a lot more. Dunno what kind of information modders have but there is opportunity to give them view from other angle as well.

[Alucard31]

Amen

[martas33]

in czech language is Velegrad Velehrad!

[tomySVK]

Here are few images which are related to the Great Moravia. Sorry for the low quality, but maybe they will help

[NorkeyCZ]

I remember I saw those two images in my school book back at the elementary level, interesting.

As for the GM issue, I think the backbone of the army should consist of the heavy cavalry, 'druzhina', noble professionals, who gained skill and reputation in previous centuries for battling for the Byzantines, Gepids, Ostrogoths, Langobards, Franks.. On the other hand, I never heard about GM using a horse archers at all. Their military tactic was rather different - to stop enemy forces either at fortified place (grad, burg) or deep in the woodland, then gather all available units and defeat them in series of surprising attacks. Thus, most important GM unit should be light armored archer with short, wooden bow and good skill in hiding, together with numerous peasantry.

I also think Bohemian Przemyslid dynasty should be added to the mod, starting with Goriwei/Borivoj who was 19/20 years old back in the 872 and became duke of Bohemia oficially in 873. After it's independence and regaining control over Moravia, Czechs forged alliances with various Elbian Slavs and through them experienced also Viking culture, although not as much as Kyiv and Rus' states. Przemyslids created many legends and 'updated' the old ones from pre-slavic and GMn times, so they could be seen as (hypothetical) descendants of it's rulers, although this is just one of the theories - of course too simple to be true. Rather let them be independent from the Moymirids/Moymirians. I guess there is no way how to make lands like Bohemia freeing themselves from the GM under their own dynasty after few years?

I remember there were some units in some mod, maybe IBFD for RTW:BI, don't know now. They looked quite okay to me, apart from fact that they were only few and characters couldn't gain christian faith by any mean!

[Wareg]

A large amount of weapon was found in Lednica lake. Weapons are from X-XI centuries (probably most of them were lost during raid of Břetislav I, duke of Bohemia, in 1038). I think that these weapons, both Polish and Bohemian, may be similar to these used in Moravia.
There were about 120 axes(some with handles), including 2 handed axes with 110-120 cm handle and 2 czekans, several dozen of spears' heads(also some with 2-3m handles) and 7 swords.
We can conclude that axes were very popular (most popular?) weapon in that region, spears/javelins also, swords-not.
Some axes weren't typical weapons but they could be used as it.
I hope that there will be many axemen units and at least one with 2 handed monsters
http://www.dzikibez.pl/index.php/new...WAw3d1M&imgurl

[Heathen Storm]

A large amount of weapon was found in Lednica lake. Weapons are from X-XI centuries (probably most of them were lost during raid of Břetislav I, duke of Bohemia, in 1038). I think that these weapons, both Polish and Bohemian, may be similar to these used in Moravia.
There were about 120 axes(some with handles), including 2 handed axes with 110-120 cm handle and 2 czekans, several dozen of spears' heads(also some with 2-3m handles) and 7 swords.
We can conclude that axes were very popular (most popular?) weapon in that region, spears/javelins also, swords-not.
Some axes weren't typical weapons but they could be used as it.
I hope that there will be many axemen units and at least one with 2 handed monsters
http://www.dzikibez.pl/index.php/new...WAw3d1M&imgurl

Many of those two-handers (or at least, what looked like two handers - can't understand the language ) look highly nordic/viking influenced:

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