ZenMod, 7/30 v4.5 updated for DLC PATCH, Darth & Mutant vers. available

[Seikales]

Well, I have never seen the Dragoon unit dismount and attack with their guns. If you have seen it, please tell what is the trick so I can put them back to Mutant Mod.

[General Malaise]

Unfortunately, as I've said before, the AI does not know how to use dragoons and hasn't since they introduced them with the Warscape engine. I included them for the player to use however, because they did exist (see references to "Bajou Teppo") and they offer and new tactical role. If CA had not made it impossible to create new animations then I would have simply made them fire from horseback to get around this problem though, even if that is likely inaccurate historically (at most they would have fired only once from horse and charged).

[OTZ]

I'm wondering if you could put the cav units available at the tier 2 stable building to tier 1, and move the dragoons to tier 2. As it is, the first stable is useless for recruitment. If this is intentional, I apologise.

[Seikales]

OK, here is a declaration I want to make. With the Darth Mod currently having its own mod forum, and TROM mod also most likely on the way there, the exposure our mods might have is getting less and less. I have used your mod heavily in my last Mutant Mod version and with the last changes I have implemented, I am very pleased with it. Yet, almost every time I play, I recognize something that can go further. I am but one person playing my mod and I receive almost no feedback, even though I have something around 20 downloads for my versions, and perhaps 200 downloads for the very first version. I honestly don't know if anyone likes it, plays it long and has something to say about it.

Why do I care? No lies here, I do want people to enjoy the mod I make. But also, if I have many people playing the mod and feedback, I can make the mod and my own gaming experience much better. It is also a very nice stimulating intellectual challenge on a hobby topic. So, I want people to download, play and comment on the mod.

However, with two giant mods at one side, and our mods to the other side, I don't see us getting much of a feedback. Maybe we operate on a very small niche, and really the number of people who enjoy the things we do is limited. But perhaps not.

So, for one more time, knowing that it will be compromises for both of us on our own tastes, I suggest we combine Zen and Mutant Mod, and not like ZenMutant etc, but one combined mod. And drop multiple versions etc. thingy.

Regardless, please do play and give some feedback on Mutant Mod man No one else does!

Cheers!

[General Malaise]

I'm wondering if you could put the cav units available at the tier 2 stable building to tier 1, and move the dragoons to tier 2. As it is, the first stable is useless for recruitment. If this is intentional, I apologise.

Well, it's semi-intentional. I noticed after I built the first version of the mod that the 1st-level stables were rendered useless without gunpowder tech.

So, rather than re-arrange the building tree I made the 1st level stables give a boost to farm income, to represent horses being used for farmwork. Hence, the player has a choice to keep the farm stables for money or upgrade/convert them to warhorses and be able to recruit heavier cavalry but lose the income.

Honestly, I'd prefer almost all building chains to force the player to choose between economy and military, and perhaps also culture/civics/religion, (rather than have completely separate buildings for these, which makes upgrading a no-brainer) but that is a huge project unto itself. If people really don't like the stables "feature" I suppose I can remove it and re-arrange the building tree for cav.

BTW, you certainly don't have to be apologetic for critiquing the mod if it's clear you're actually bothering to play it for more than five minutes. .

OK, here is a declaration I want to make. With the Darth Mod currently having its own mod forum, and TROM mod also most likely on the way there, the exposure our mods might have is getting less and less. I have used your mod heavily in my last Mutant Mod version and with the last changes I have implemented, I am very pleased with it. Yet, almost every time I play, I recognize something that can go further. I am but one person playing my mod and I receive almost no feedback, even though I have something around 20 downloads for my versions, and perhaps 200 downloads for the very first version. I honestly don't know if anyone likes it, plays it long and has something to say about it.

Why do I care? No lies here, I do want people to enjoy the mod I make. But also, if I have many people playing the mod and feedback, I can make the mod and my own gaming experience much better. It is also a very nice stimulating intellectual challenge on a hobby topic. So, I want people to download, play and comment on the mod.

Well, I can understand that but I really mod for myself personally and don't much care if other people play beyond making little alterations I don't feel strongly about (like the Stables example above). I put stuff out there on the off-chance others enjoy it and to justify to myself the time it takes to mod this damned game. For me, the intellectual challenge comes more from design than tweaking, especially since the latter often degenerates into trying to suit people's conflicting preferences on small details and subjective interpretations of what perfect balance is, beyond ensuring each unit has a distinct purpose. I also like to feel like something is finished, although that might just be because I'm lazy.

The whole modding thing tires me a bit to be honest. You have an absurd sense of entitlement from many people who play mods on the one hand (not too bad in this thread really, but I see it in many others), like they are doing the modder a great honor playing the mod, and (not to badmouth any individual but) a lot of pettiness from modders themselves on the other hand about using work or getting recognition. I'd rather just say "do whatever you want with my mods" and have that be that. I mean, it's just free stuff.

However, with two giant mods at one side, and our mods to the other side, I don't see us getting much of a feedback. Maybe we operate on a very small niche, and really the number of people who enjoy the things we do is limited. But perhaps not.

Well, to a certain extent, I know ZenMod has a very small niche, at least among gamers these days. It's clear from the number of downloads and rep on the one hand and some of the trolling and griping in this thread on the other (and also the comparative lack of posts of course, most of which are about bugs or tech stuff). This is to say nothing of the endless whining in General Discussion about the lack of unit variety being a huge problem for the game, when it's the reason the game is more balanced than most TW releases (less places for them to mess up). I mean that one guy here even went so far as to claim it's impossible to make a mod more historical and that taking out one overpowered unit broke the game.

I was honestly only expecting STW1 players to be interested in it at all originally, and had advertised it that way, but switched to "historical units" in the title because unit mods get more attention, even though that's not really what this is ultimately. I should probably switch it back now really to avoid more people coming in with the wrong idea or hostile to the purpose of the mod because they didn't see what they wanted, which was another units add-on. This is one reason now I should stick with my original intention of avoiding trying to get as much attention as possible and just stick to what my "vision" was.

So, for one more time, knowing that it will be compromises for both of us on our own tastes, I suggest we combine Zen and Mutant Mod, and not like

ZenMutant etc, but one combined mod. And drop multiple versions etc. thingy.

Regardless, please do play and give some feedback on Mutant Mod man No one else does!

Cheers!

Well Seikales, I used virtually the entirety of your mod with the exception of your stats for archers I believe. You made them have very high accuracy and low ammo which has a couple of glaring issues for me. 1) It's the only part of the Mutant Mod which is wildly different from vanilla, and could thus alienate people. If it is to be there, it should be a separate optional patch, like I did with archers in my Age of Discovery mod. 2) Accuracy vs Ammo is not a good balance mechanic. It makes them go from monstrous beasts for a few moments to almost completely useless the rest of the battle. 3) Historically, Sengoku archer's quivers held about two dozen arrows (more than I have it set to now actually) and on top of that had guys carrying around huge quivers full of 100 arrows. The whole point of keeping archers over guns at all is that they can keep up the rate of fire while guns reload. Which leads me to the final point. 4) High-powered, limited use archers step on the toes of gunners, whose purpose is to be briefly highly destructive but then become of limited use after ranks clash, unless you're reckless enough to shoot into the backs of your own men. Bows don't become quite so limited after ranks clash however, at least they shouldn't tactically to still have a point, but they do if you drop their ammo very low.

While we are on the subject of feedback though, I remember I wanted to mention that, while I like how the AI keeps trade agreements now, I think they can be irrationally disagreeable about forming them in the first place. Also, perhaps make Realm Divide occur at a higher fame/provinces owned level but don't reduce it's penalties to diplomacy so quickly.

In any event, I don't see the problem with offering multiple versions of ZenMod, especially if a forum is granted. Ideally you'd have complete modularity, which is the only reason I can see people playing the basic version, is that there's some stuff in the other two they plain don't want. Good on a modder like Radious for having full modularity but I can't be arsed to keep track of a dozen different modlets each with multiple versions, so I think just having different versions like ZenMod Basic, Zen Mutant, perhaps a ZenMutant Plus (with your archer changes) and Zen Darth is fine. Lastly, I kind of don't like someone completely re-arranging my stats if I'm going to be the one putting out the mod myself because that's where most of the creative work was for me after basic design. It feels like I just did the grunt work of getting the units in the game if that aspect is changed too, which anyone could do. Again, I don't care if someone does something with that separately though, but I use my stats in the Darth version over his as well for that reason, even though I keep almost every other aspect of Darthmod.

________________

Finally, for everyone else here is a preview of what's so far being changed in 3.0:

v3.0 Changes Preview
-Fixed Ikko Ikki being able to recruit standard Ashigaru (last patch)
-Corrected stat errors w/ Spear Hero's*
-Fixed Date Kesshitai's description wrongly being the same as No-Dachi Ronin
-Fixed incorrect entry in faction table regarding Kerai unit
-Kept hide in light scrub but removed hide in long grass for Kyuba Sohei (latter was too strong IMO)
-Added mounted archer female sohei hero for Ikko Ikki
-Removed possibility of standard warrior nuns being recruited
-Allowed warrior nuns to possibly spawn as rebels if unlocked
-Adjusted warrior nuns to have stats comparable to other units' stat changes
-Updated darth and mutant versions with latest releases
**Oda/Uesugi vsCav to 24, Oda Def to 22

This will maybe be out Monday or, more likely Tuesday. Didn't want to add more units but with Ikko Ikki being playable soon I figured I'd get the jump on it and do their unique hero now. Went with a female mounted archer sohei because 1) Was already a foot sohei hero 2) was only one other mounted hero and one other archer hero 3) they'll look different 4) women fighting as part of rebel bands, while not really happening to my knowledge, is more reasonable than as part of a daimyo's standard army IMO and 5) both practically and historically women warriors as mounted archers makes more sense than a lot of other fighting roles. Of course, I figured I'd also use them so people who do get the DLC won't be locked out of them completely if they use ZenMod (same reason I'm allowing the standard ones to spawn as rebels).



Oh yeah, before I head off for the rest of the day I wanted to say nobody needs to vote on that poll anymore LOL. That was only for when I was contemplating bothering to make the mod in the first place heh.

[Seikales]

Well mate, I did some changes on the mod Do play the latest version and tell me what you think? I would appreciate that.

The archer thing can be debated, and perhaps changed eventually. Yet, the way they were in many other mods, they felt too weak. I kept the ammo setting you have in my latest version. Yet, increased the angle of fire for the archers so that they do not rain arrow on their own unit. I feel they have a good balanced feeling now. Take a look at them

The guns, on the other hand, do have certain positives above archers (in my mod, at least). First, they can fire in turns, which makes them fire almost constantly. And being under fire from firearms is very devastating to morale. Second, their ammo has very high speed and flies a direct path. Thus, they are much more effective against final stages of charges, or fast moving units like cavalry. This particular property of muskets is what actually lead to eventual demise of cavalry units and their withdrawal from the battlefields. That property persists.

Now, we are discussing this point, and it is fun to me And the reason we can discuss is that we have played a number of games between us, using each others mods and others' mods and we keep conversing about it. I did benefit from your work, for example. This is why feedback is good. It does improve own's gameplays and sense of engagement with the mod we make.

Anyhow, waiting on feedback when you have time Cheers.

[OTZ]

On trade agreements - In several campaigns I have had no issues getting them at any point, other than a brief period as the Chokosabe. That particular case actually had to do with an early war I was in - once it was over, getting agreements went from low to high.

[DARTH VADER]

This is a new request from me to anyone that uses my DarthMod: Shogun II as a base for his mod.
Please register your mod here:
DarthMod: Shogun II submods


And copy/paste the below somewhere in your page:

Certified for DarthMod

XXX YourMod is based on or uses many files of DarthMod: Shogun II originally made by DARTH VADER.
XXX YourMod is also registered here: DarthMod: Shogun II submods.

[DARTH VADER]

Please discard my latest demand.

[Totalheadache]

atm am playing with toons n darth n aum but i think general malaises ideas need to be incorporated. i.e like togukawa getting better gunpowder..and i like what he has done with adding more heros..

perhaps a hojo fire rocket hero? i just think some factions need tweaking a bit in terms of unit bonuses but i played zenmod and found the combat lasted too long whilst atm gameplay for me on very hard seems just about spot on.

p.s shouldnt shimazu get the katana hero and date a nodachi..? (sorry if this has been discussed).

[General Malaise]

5/23 v3.0 out (download at links in OP)
v3.0 Changelog
-Fixed Ikko Ikki being able to recruit standard Ashigaru
-Corrected stat errors w/ Spear Hero's*
-Fixed Date Kesshitai's description being same as Ronin
-Fixed incorrect entry in faction table regarding Kerai unit
-Fixed minor factions being able to potentially recruit Uesugi hero
-Added missing special officer for Mori Yamabushi hero (if DLC unlocked only)
-Switched pike square to pike wall formation for Uesugi hero
-Kept hide in light scrub but removed hide in long grass for Kyuba Sohei (latter was too strong IMO)
-Added Zokuto to ikki rebel and pirate spawns
-Added new Dorobo (Thieves/Looters; "Loan Sword Ashigaru") unit as rebel and pirate spawns
-Made sure Dorobo were not normally recruitable
-Adjusted Dorobo stats to match other units' changes
-Removed possibility of standard warrior nuns (now named Onna Sohei) being recruited
-Allowed warrior nuns to possibly spawn as rebels if unlocked
-Locked out factions from recruiting vanilla warrior monk hero unit
-Added mounted archer sohei hero (Ikkito-Sen) for Ikko Ikki, recruitable with Honganji
-Updated UAI content to 1.10 (for all versions)
-Updated darth and mutant versions with latest releases (v2.2 and v3.5 respectively)
**Oda/Uesugi vsCav to 24, Oda Def to 22
Note: If you want to try the new Ikki hero unit, download the allfactionsplayable mod and load a custom battle using the Asai faction


The Ikki hero is not a female archer as of this time as attempting to use the models caused a crash. I will perhaps change it when DLC is released.

[dannydandy]

is it possible to use vanilla unict cards? coz the new unit cards are colour coded according to their unit type (archers, spear, sword) in vanilla, but may have different unit roles under the mod, so its rather confusing in fact
p.s. are there any plans adding mercenaries like ronin or nanban units in spirit of recruitable wako?

[General Malaise]

is it possible to use vanilla unict cards? coz the new unit cards are colour coded according to their unit type (archers, spear, sword) in vanilla, but may have different unit roles under the mod, so its rather confusing in fact

Well, there's only 3 potential problems I see.
1-Naginata. While these are now classed as sword units in certain respects, they still use naginata battle entity entries and count as heavy infantry in others. They also still have their anti-cav bonus, so I don't see how the red spear color could be all *that* confusing.
2-Sanpei Wako. They have a green color, but I think the problem is more there icon has a bow because there is no icon currently for gun-armed pirates I could find. Still, they are a pretty uncommon unit.
3-Hokihei. Not really a big problem in my opinion because, while they are more mounted infantry than cavalry you can still use them as the latter.

Basically, it's a ton of work for not much benefit in my opinion. If people *really* want it I can do it, but it will take a while and will be some time for I try it.

p.s. are there any plans adding mercenaries like ronin or nanban units in spirit of recruitable wako?

well, Ikko Ikki use ronin instead of samurai but they are not playable yet. Besides the ronin events, you can also bribe ronin that spawn as rebels. Besides that, I don't much see the point since they are the same as samurai and recruiting ronin is not really sensible since recruited ronin would be not ronin but become samurai. As for nanban mercenaries, maybe but someone would have to point out to me a good source showing nanban ever fought for samurai which I have never heard of. Plus, besides boosting Christian factions, I don't see the point of yet another gunpowder unit really. Again, a maybe.

__________________________________________

On another note, I've finished working on a unit and banner re-color mod. Yes, I'm aware there's a lot of these, which is why this is optional at the moment. For the most part, it is similar to the alternative clan re-color mod, except that I am following the uniforms and banners as listed in these plates as closely as possible: http://imageshack.us/m/818/7834/uesugi.jpg while that diverges in some cases.

This patch will also change the name of the Hattori to the Iga Ikki (a shortened version of Iga Sokoku Ikki, the name of the republic of Iga). This is more accurate historically than "Hattori Clan" I believe. Let me know if you use this what you think.

Link: http://www.zshare.net/download/90620670255f3b7c/
(no user script should be needed; savegame compatible, strongly recommend to use Ftmch's lessgloss mod here in addition the the above patch: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=435558) )

UNIFORM & BANNER RE-COLOR PICS

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[dannydandy]

All clan specialty units have +1 attack/+1 defense/+1 morale (or +5 accuracy and +5 reload instead of atk/def if ranged) and lower cost and upkeep.

Mori have superior sohei because 1) it makes more sense historically then Uesugi and 2) that's how they were in STW1. Also, one clan needed to have superior spearmen to fill the last specialty slot and that makes much more sense for Uesugi than Mori (Uesugi fielded lots of spearmen).

mori is known to have strong fleets, giving the navy bonus to tokugawa doesnt make much sense. and if Uesugi should have a historical bonus, it would be their cavarly

[General Malaise]

mori is known to have strong fleets, giving the navy bonus to tokugawa doesnt make much sense. and if Uesugi should have a historical bonus, it would be their cavarly

As I've said many times, gameplay still takes precedence over fact and superior guns is not a good enough bonus as guns come late game, hence ships also for Tokugawa (ships alone is likewise not a strong enough bonus IMO). Mori is not "known to have strong fleets" anyway, people just got this idea from the vanilla game. They occasionally used Wako, as other clans did, but that is hardly the same thing. Given Tokugawa commissioned ships like the Nihon Maru and the Mekura Bune I would say ship bonus makes as much sense for them as anyone. Granted, it was after Tokoguwa became shogun but still, it was the only real naval advance by a clan I'm aware of. I don't know where you're getting the idea Uesugi was famous for cavalry either, you'd be better off arguing I should have given the ships bonus to them, although if they were "famous" or "unique" for anything it would have been fielding more spearman than average, which the mod represents as a bonus. Believe it or not, I did research quite a bit before I made this and, while, again, gameplay takes precedence, the clan specialties are less arbitrary and inaccurate than vanilla (e.g. vanilla's No-Dachi units for the Date).

In any case, if you really don't agree with how the mod is set up 1) change it yourself or 2) don't play it. I'm not going to redo the entire unit roster every time someone makes claims like these, sorry. I'm not going to argue over historical issues any more either I think. My reasoning for why what is what has already been made apparent enough for people to decide if they agree enough to want to play the mod if they are concerned about that aspect.

____

As for the clan re-colorings patch, has anyone any opinion on them who has tried them? Thanks.

[Totalheadache]

gen whats your stance on making a similar mod but with less slow/normal fighting (one that runs at darths speed) and with perhaps a few more tweaked units??

(i'd do it myself but havent a clue).

[General Malaise]

gen whats your stance on making a similar mod but with less slow/normal fighting (one that runs at darths speed) and with perhaps a few more tweaked units??

(i'd do it myself but havent a clue).

If you want one that runs at Darth's speed why not download the Darth version? The troop movement speed is the same. The defense stats are still higher but it's not that much longer really.

If you just want the units from my mod without the rest of the stuff I suggest asking Swiss H. or Radious to add them to their unit mod packs.

[General Malaise]

Nobody has any opinion on the re-color patch? Really?

Also, can anyone with the DLC say whether this is working and what version you're trying?

Thanks.

[metenojo]

Can I add this mod to Units variety+DM+tom all in one mods?

[General Malaise]

Can I add this mod to Units variety+DM+tom all in one mods?

Unit variety will only partially work as it edits the uniforms db file and there are changes to that mod in this mod as well as additions. I am not sure about Toons mod, my guess is not, since it includes a different type of unit card mod, but you can try it. ZenMod will probably load last if you don't rename either so maybe it will overwrite that issue.