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Thread: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

  1. #1
    Silius Saurus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    Just a few thoughts about the "samurai ethic" -

    From my reading I see that the Sengoku Jidai period is often viewed with rose-colored glasses, mainly because the view of the period was shaped by the book "Hagakure", which was essentially written as a "how-to" book for young samurai on what sort of ideals they should aspire to. Hagakure was written 100 years after the warring states period ended, and published many more years after that. At the time it was written, the samurai had become a group of indolent, decadent bureaucrats who were more talented at getting into debt than they were with their weapons.

    Hagakure essentially is a over idealized representation of the Samurai, and has come to shape what most people think about the samurai, but if you examine the history in any detail you see a very different picture.

    Of course the examples of samurai loyalty are not absent. Men like Kusunoki Masashige and Torii Mototada certainly did exist. I am inclined to argue that they were not necessarily the standard samurai of their day, but outstanding examples of loyalty and devotion to duty.

    The truth about the period was that families often turned on each other, father on son, sons on the father and so on. Some, like Takeda Shingen, liked boiling his enemies alive in huge iron pots. Samurai frequently switched sides, betrayed their Daimyo and generally behaved badly. In the Sengoku period it was often "every man (and woman) for himself".

    So we need to take the notion of samurai honor with a grain of salt. Just my half koban's worth.
    Last edited by Silius Saurus; April 19, 2011 at 02:01 PM.
    "If you're in a fair fight, you didn't plan it properly". -- Nick Lappos

  2. #2

  3. #3

    Default Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    As with any society where there is social degeneration, or even peaceful social advances, there will always be a clique of conservatives that will rail against the current way, while putting the old society in a rose tinted light. Often highly modified. The Hagakure is merely one of these attempts, and perhaps one of the cases where it might have been a good idea to adhere a bit more to it. In any case, the text tries to return to more 'simple' days while overdoing it, making the 'optimal' way of behaviour quite different from previous times.
    Courtly Love in Europe is similar. It existed, but it wasn't anywhere near what the modern mythos makes it out to be.

    The Japanese were perhaps slightly more tied into a general sense of honour than most Europeans (given the lengthy period of almost complete dominance by the Samurai and their funny notions of personal combat). But they ran, they backstabbed, they threw any notion of honour over board whenever it suited them. And it was never beneath them to take full advantage of anything that could give them an edge in combat, from kicking sand in the eyes of their enemy to conventional and non-conventional ambushes and feigned retreats.

    They were with other words, pragmatic. What is honour if said honour doesn't win and thus vanishes? Cheat a little here and there and it will survive when it is peaceful, in fact you can then make it into whatever you want it to be.
    Stupidity is the natural state of human beings; brilliance is when we fail at stupidity.

    Speaking of which...

    I am ever more reminded of this guy when browsing certain threads.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silius Saurus View Post
    At the time it was written, the samurai had become a group of indolent, decadent bureaucrats who were more talented at getting into debt than they were with their weapons.
    Please show us were you find the information which leads you to this conclusion. In reality the Edo period ended the hundreds of years of strife and butchery that was a constant way of life in Japan. Show me a country that so quickly consolidated power and turned masses of wretched poor warriors into security officials, police, firemen, tax collectors and all the other positions needed to run a total lock down police state. You need to read some of the books available that show how much control the ruling samurai government had over the entire country for over 200 years. There were no more "indolent decadent bureaucrats" in Japan than any were else in the world. This is a view propagated by the same western nations that violated Japans territory and caused the eventual breakdown in their government. In order to justify their actions the western nations ran a campaign about the Japanese and Chinese governments and people showing the "Orientals" as being almost subhuman. If you want the real story you have to read some of the accounts of westerners that lived and or traveled in this part of the world from the 1500s to the 1800s and some of the writings of the Japanese and Chinese people who encountered westerners during these times. You will see how each side saw the other side as being the crude, illiterate, barbarians, it went both ways, the Japanese and Chinese saw the westerners as the "indolent decadant bureaucrats".

  5. #5
    Silius Saurus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    It's well documented - the samurai lost their fighting skills early in the Edo period. Why else do you think that Hagakure was written? The Samurai class gradually lost power and influence to the merchant classes - so much so that in later years merchant families that wanted to buy status could purchase their way into samurai families by having their sons adopted into samurai families for a fee or remission of debt and gain social status.

    It's all there in the historical record, guy.

    But if you doubt me in any case - refer to "Samurai - An Illustrated History" by Kure Mitsuo.

    The decline of the samurai class is a well documented fact; by both foreign born historians like Turnbull et. al. and by Japanese historians as well.
    Last edited by Silius Saurus; April 20, 2011 at 01:25 AM.
    "If you're in a fair fight, you didn't plan it properly". -- Nick Lappos

  6. #6

    Default Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silius Saurus View Post
    It's well documented. Do some reading. The Samurai class gradually lost power and influence to the merchant classes..
    I think maybe you need to do some reading. The samurai ruled Japan right up until the 1800s. Sure SOME samurai were poor, but most samurai were ALWAYS poor except for the rich families even before the Edo period, thats not news. It was the ruling samurai families which set up the rigid caste system that existed during the Edo period. The samurai collected the taxes from the farmers and merchants etc. Samurai made the rules and controlled the entire country. Using one book to back up your personal views is a little far fetched. Post some quotes from the book you say backs up your statements that the samurai as a whole became just a bunch of decadent losers who lost control to the merchants.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silius Saurus View Post

    It's all there in the historical record, guy.

    But if you doubt me in any case - refer to "Samurai - An Illustrated History" by Kure Mitsuo.
    About the book you seem to think is so well researched:
    Well. It's big and red and shiny and has lots of very pretty photographs of live human beings posing in armor and costumes. It has a gushy description on the inside of the dust jacket about how historically authentic everything is inside!!!!!

    It also has a preface by its author in which he mentions "the curator of a private museum in Kyoto." He finally rambles around to mentioning the "Japanese costume museum in Kyoto." He never, ever thanks or acknowledges Izutsu-san by name either. Nor does he identify any of the collections or reproduction sources of any of the arms or armaments.

    Dr. Kure is a doctor of medicine. He got interested in researching samurai militaria while painting models for gaming. This led him to re-enacting. Great, as a hobbyist myself, I applaud that. It's just that if you're going to embark on "an obsessive quest for accuracy," how about telling us where you found this stuff so we can come along for the ride?

    Not a single footnote. (Am I weird for reading footnotes?)

    Not a single corroborating image from period artwork.

    No bibliography whatsoever.
    "An Illustrated History"....that should be the first warning. This is not a well researched book on which to base any definitive statements, it is a coffee table book.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    For anyone who wants to have actual knowledge about Edo period Japan I would suggest reading books such as this one "A Reader in Edo Period Travel [Hardcover], Herbert Plutschow" http://www.amazon.com/Reader-Edo-Per.../dp/1901903230 With used copies available from $60 you could actually learn something about the period rather than looking at some pictures and a few unreferenced statements.

    Editorial Reviews

    Largely ignored hitherto by Western scholars, "Plutschow's Edo Period Travel" provides the first in-depth study of the subject which is centred on fifteen of the period's most notable travellers, some of whom are well known in other fields as intellectuals, artists, poets, folklorists and natural scientists , for example but rarely, if at all, as travellers. The first traveller put in the spotlight is the celebrated intellectual and botanist Kaibara Ekiken (1630-1714) and the last is the explorer of Ezo (now Hokkaido) and government official Matsuura Takeshiro (1818-88). Such was the thirst for knowledge in the Edo period that some travel accounts (estimated to number over 2000) became best-sellers in their day, not least for their voyeuristic appeal, including those of Kaibara Ekiken and Tachibana Nankei, which are included in this volume. This important research on how the Japanese discovered their own country and cultural identity has considerable interdisciplinary appeal. Of particular interest also is the author's discussion on the nature of this new travel writing and the self-centred observation and seeing' that developed in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, he calls the Japanese Enlightenment'.

    About the Author
    Herbert Plutschow was born in Switzerland and educated in Switzerland, England, Spain, Japan and the USA. He received his PhD in Japanese studies from Columbia University, New York, in 1973. He subsequently taught Japanese cultural history at the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA), retiring in 2005. He has taught as visiting faculty at the Universitaet Zuerich, International Christian University (ICU), Tokyo, Leningrad State University, International Research Center for Japanese Studies, Kyoto, Ecole des Hautes Etudes (Sorbonne, Paris), Kyoto University and at Meiji Gakuin University, Tokyo. At present, he is Director of the Institute of Comparative Culture, Josei International University, Japan. Most recently, he has published A Reader in Edo Period Travel (Global Oriental, 2006).
    If anyone here would like to read a book that actually gives you some real knowledge about what Japan was like during the samurai era I can provide many examples, while people like Turnbull are good for certain facts, to really learn what it was like in Japan when samurai ruled the country you have to read the accounts of people that actually were there and provided written statements of the things they did and saw.



  9. #9
    Silius Saurus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    Ah, so you copy/paste a description of the book and furnish that as evidence that it isn't researched, without actually having read it yourself. Not very impressive.

    If you need any evidence about the decline of samurai capabilities, then how do you explain the performance of the shogunate's army during the Shimabara rebellion?

    It took them four months to quell a rebellion that occurred only 15 years after the establishment of the Tokugawa Shogunate, and it was only finally suppressed with Dutch help.

    You're not the only one who has read a book and would do well not to be quite so condescending.
    Last edited by Silius Saurus; April 21, 2011 at 11:06 AM.
    "If you're in a fair fight, you didn't plan it properly". -- Nick Lappos

  10. #10

    Default Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silius Saurus View Post

    You're not the only one who has read a book and would do well not to be quite so condescending.
    And you should know better than to use a book that no one with any real knowledge of Japanese history would use as a reference in order to try and prove a personal point of view. That shows how much regard you have for the other members of this forum. Then once again you try to prove a personal view by judging a period of Japanese history that lasted for over 200 years by one battle??? I list books that people can actually learn something from, not coffee table picture books.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    Ultimately, we're debating history here. I think it's best for everyone to take everything with a grain of salt. For all we know Uesugi Kenshin could have been a woman and Toyotomi might have arranged for his lord's murder.

    I agree with Silius Saurus. For all intent and purposes, post 1591, at least, there is little distinction between even the common ashigaru and the "samurai." There's a difference between the ideal and what might have actually happened in the same way that you find a distinction between the Arthurian tradition and the historical European knight.

    There's a pretty common joke in the period. It loosely translates to something like this. "In the house of the low-ranking warrior, other than a kettle and a blanket, almost all had large stones. That way, they could at least hold it for warmth in cold days." After saru-chan passed his famous legislation in 1591, he more or less screwed over a good part of low-ranking "samurai." [Arguably the only ones that benefitted from that legislation were Ashigaru, who at least had something to work towards] For a better idea of what the "samurai" did or are capable of, I suggest looking into some first-hand accounts of the Shimabara rebellion, which is what Sillius seemed to be citing above.

    ... For that matter, pre-1591, are we including the "lesser" ji-zamurai/kokujin (こくじん) into what we consider to be "samurai"?
    Last edited by Ying, Duke of Qin; April 22, 2011 at 02:36 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ying, Duke of Qin View Post

    I agree with Silius Saurus. For all intent and purposes, post 1591, at least, there is little distinction between even the common ashigaru and the "samurai." There's a difference between the ideal and what might have actually happened in the same way that you find a distinction between the Arthurian tradition and the historical European knight.
    I was disputing these statements, not anything to do about pre 1591 samurai morals etc.
    Hagakure was written 100 years after the warring states period ended, and published many more years after that. At the time it was written, the samurai had become a group of indolent, decadent bureaucrats who were more talented at getting into debt than they were with their weapons.
    From the post 1591 period mentioned until the Meiji period there was over 250 years of history. If you are going to make a blanket statement about 250 years of a countries history you should provide some more evidence than just one unreferenced coffee table book. The Edo period provided Japan with a consolidated government, law and order was enforced across the country, art and science flourished. It was the samurai that provided the manpower that ran the country. In all my reading I have never seen any evidence that
    the samurai lost their fighting skills early in the Edo period
    The samurai did not lose anything, their fighting skills changed from fighting external threats and inner clan war fare to securing and controlling the entire population of Japan. This was a massive job which they excelled at, if you do any reading on the subject you will see the complexity of the internal security apparatus that was established during the Edo period.
    The Samurai class gradually lost power and influence to the merchant classes
    Once again another unsubstantiated personal opinion based on
    It's all there in the historical record, guy. But if you doubt me in any case - refer to "Samurai - An Illustrated History" by Kure Mitsuo.
    I not only doubt that statement I also doubt the dubious reference, when you make a bold statement you need to provide factual references to back it up or it just becomes unsubstantiated personal opinion.

    As far as the myth about samurai honor etc....I think western beliefs have clouded the reality of the times. To us now all the fighting and bloodshed is just entertainment but to the Japanese it was several hundred years of fighting and upheaval....The Japanese people as a country were happy to give up all the fighting and just live their lives in the relative peace of the Edo period.

  13. #13
    Silius Saurus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    @ american samurai: I am now putting you on my ignore list.

    Have a nice day.
    "If you're in a fair fight, you didn't plan it properly". -- Nick Lappos

  14. #14

    Icon6 Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silius Saurus View Post
    @ american samurai: I am now putting you on my ignore list.

    Have a nice day.
    The name of this section of the forum is "Historical Research Center"
    Historical Research Center A forum for historical research covering the game's period. Please try to provide sources.
    It is not the "personal opinion center", and it certainly is not the place to post unsubstantiated views backed up by flimsy unreferenced books of dubious quality. In a forum were people insist that samurai used "bamboo" as armor there should be at least one place were accurate information can be found.

    No one is wearing Plate-Armor in this game,
    Armor consists of Leather and coloured Wood Bamboo
    expensive armors used metal instead of wood but even these armors are mainly leather armor
    After the arrival of the Europeans the Japanese started copying the european armors making full-plate metal armors
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=bamboo&page=4

    People should be able to come to this section and ask a question regarding historical correctness and receive an accurate answer. If you can not stand having your answer challenged then consider posting in another section, or.....stick your fingers in your ears and go...nanananananananana!!!!!!!!

  15. #15

    Default Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    Well. Some right and some wrong from both sides. American Samurai has a point about "the Illustrated sourcebook," but he still makes a few incorrect points.

    The Edo period did support a flourishing of arts, sciences, and featured a rather effective early modern "police state." It is important to remember, however, that the feudal system was still firmly in place. The shogunate's power (especially towards the end of the period) was always somewhat shaky in the southern/western provinces-- Satsuma and Choshu han are of course the most notable. Even during the Edo period proper, the Daiymo still had most of the say over the laws within their own domains, as long as they kept up their respects to the Shogun. Nazi Germany it was not. It's important not to anachronistically place forms of government that were not and could not be implemented at the time. The Shogun exercised an impressive level of control for sure, but it was hardly at the level of really any modern nation-state.

    As to the "lessening of warrior skills..." They changed, certainly. Perhaps American Samurai is objecting to the negative connotation of the characterization, but read, say, Katsu Kokichi's autobiography. He was a sword seller, a street thug, constantly in debt, and never really held a government post. Not to say that he represents all samurai of the era, but as a class of people they certainly did not have the same experience nor prowess with warfare that their ancestors hundreds of years prior had. Sword schools flourished, but they were for recreation, fame, and street fights rather than military academies. It's a little hard to say that the existence of an effective police force means that they didn't lose any military skill--how would you fancy an engagement between your local beat cops and the Navy SEALs? Moreover, most Samurai that weren't busy brawling and gambling HAD transitioned into a bureaucratic role. It's nothing to be ashamed of, perhaps, but you can't deny that they spent far more time learning to manage a household or a province than an army.

    Also, as to the merchants.. American Samurai, sorry, you're incorrect here. You call out everyone else, correctly, on blanket-statementing 250 years of history, then promptly do it yourself. As time went on and the economy flourished under the excellent administration of the Bakufu, Japan slowly transitioned from a rice-based agricultural economy to a monetary one. The Samurai certainly didn't like it--look at the sumptuary laws frequently passed in the 1700s for examples of how the merchants would constantly attempt to flaunt their wealth while the Samurai attempted to suppress it to maintain their prestige. Also note the story of the 47 Ronin with the merchant they can't do it without but can't quite include.

    The fact was that Samurai stipends, and the Bakufu's national budget, was collected entirely in rice. Rice which increasingly, to be worth anything, had to be changed into money. This was only done through the merchants, who became rich off the exchange. Speculation before the harvests often ran rampant, and could lead to dangerous asset bubbles (sound familiar? 2008 wasn't so new after all...). A Samurai's "fixed" stipend of 400 Koku could mean radically different incomes at market value year to year. Look in the early 1800s, there's at least one rice riot in Osaka (the location of the largest rice markets) due to speculation, or read the multiple edicts published over the years forgiving the debt that lower-ranking Samurai had run themselves into simply by maintaining their lifestyle on an agricultural stipend in a monetary economy. The Shogunate, steeped in Confucian, agrarian fundamentals, refused to change with the economy. It's one of the many reasons that, Perry or no, the Tokugawas were headed towards a crisis in the 1850s. There's also a reason the Boshin war was so short and one-sided. The shogunate as an institution did a fantastic job of maintaining peace and order for 250 years, but that was about as far as it was going to go.

    Back to the original topic of the thread, mostly yes. "Bushido" was invented by the bureaucrats rhapsodizing on how glorious it would be to die for their lord in battle, then turning back to their desks and filling out the 17th century equivalent of a TPS report (did seee the memo, mori?), and by the heads of clans trying to control their warriors. Calling them indolent is a bit unfair, especially in the immediate years after unification. Still, though, the Sengoku was a period of brutal dishonor, betrayal, rapid social mobility, and lawlessness. There were no codes, there was only the dead and the living (at the risk of being overly poetic). "The Japanese people as a country (itself a totally anachronistic term)" may have been happy that the warfare was over. Well, honestly, in the case of some peasants, the Sengoku might have been preferable--sure there's a pretty good chance you get killed, but consider that if Toyotomi Hideyoshi had been born again 60 years later into the same kind of family, he would simply have toiled the land in back-breaking labor all his life rather than living his final years in untold opulence in control of the realm. As for the samurai and the merchants, take the briefest glance at Edo period theater, poetry, art, or literature and tell me they didn't fetishize warfare just as much as we in the west do now.

    For someone harping on the necessity of research, American Samurai, you seem to have done precious little of it.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    Quote Originally Posted by 毛利 元就 View Post
    Well. Some right and some wrong from both sides. American Samurai has a point about "the Illustrated sourcebook," but he still makes a few incorrect points.

    The Edo period did support a flourishing of arts, sciences, and featured a rather effective early modern "police state." It is important to remember, however, that the feudal system was still firmly in place. The shogunate's power (especially towards the end of the period) was always somewhat shaky in the southern/western provinces-- Satsuma and Choshu han are of course the most notable. Even during the Edo period proper, the Daiymo still had most of the say over the laws within their own domains, as long as they kept up their respects to the Shogun. Nazi Germany it was not. It's important not to anachronistically place forms of government that were not and could not be implemented at the time. The Shogun exercised an impressive level of control for sure, but it was hardly at the level of really any modern nation-state.

    As to the "lessening of warrior skills..." They changed, certainly. Perhaps American Samurai is objecting to the negative connotation of the characterization, but read, say, Katsu Kokichi's autobiography. He was a sword seller, a street thug, constantly in debt, and never really held a government post. Not to say that he represents all samurai of the era, but as a class of people they certainly did not have the same experience nor prowess with warfare that their ancestors hundreds of years prior had. Sword schools flourished, but they were for recreation, fame, and street fights rather than military academies. It's a little hard to say that the existence of an effective police force means that they didn't lose any military skill--how would you fancy an engagement between your local beat cops and the Navy SEALs? Moreover, most Samurai that weren't busy brawling and gambling HAD transitioned into a bureaucratic role. It's nothing to be ashamed of, perhaps, but you can't deny that they spent far more time learning to manage a household or a province than an army.

    Also, as to the merchants.. American Samurai, sorry, you're incorrect here. You call out everyone else, correctly, on blanket-statementing 250 years of history, then promptly do it yourself. As time went on and the economy flourished under the excellent administration of the Bakufu, Japan slowly transitioned from a rice-based agricultural economy to a monetary one. The Samurai certainly didn't like it--look at the sumptuary laws frequently passed in the 1700s for examples of how the merchants would constantly attempt to flaunt their wealth while the Samurai attempted to suppress it to maintain their prestige. Also note the story of the 47 Ronin with the merchant they can't do it without but can't quite include.

    The fact was that Samurai stipends, and the Bakufu's national budget, was collected entirely in rice. Rice which increasingly, to be worth anything, had to be changed into money. This was only done through the merchants, who became rich off the exchange. Speculation before the harvests often ran rampant, and could lead to dangerous asset bubbles (sound familiar? 2008 wasn't so new after all...). A Samurai's "fixed" stipend of 400 Koku could mean radically different incomes at market value year to year. Look in the early 1800s, there's at least one rice riot in Osaka (the location of the largest rice markets) due to speculation, or read the multiple edicts published over the years forgiving the debt that lower-ranking Samurai had run themselves into simply by maintaining their lifestyle on an agricultural stipend in a monetary economy. The Shogunate, steeped in Confucian, agrarian fundamentals, refused to change with the economy. It's one of the many reasons that, Perry or no, the Tokugawas were headed towards a crisis in the 1850s. There's also a reason the Boshin war was so short and one-sided. The shogunate as an institution did a fantastic job of maintaining peace and order for 250 years, but that was about as far as it was going to go.

    Back to the original topic of the thread, mostly yes. "Bushido" was invented by the bureaucrats rhapsodizing on how glorious it would be to die for their lord in battle, then turning back to their desks and filling out the 17th century equivalent of a TPS report (did seee the memo, mori?), and by the heads of clans trying to control their warriors. Calling them indolent is a bit unfair, especially in the immediate years after unification. Still, though, the Sengoku was a period of brutal dishonor, betrayal, rapid social mobility, and lawlessness. There were no codes, there was only the dead and the living (at the risk of being overly poetic). "The Japanese people as a country (itself a totally anachronistic term)" may have been happy that the warfare was over. Well, honestly, in the case of some peasants, the Sengoku might have been preferable--sure there's a pretty good chance you get killed, but consider that if Toyotomi Hideyoshi had been born again 60 years later into the same kind of family, he would simply have toiled the land in back-breaking labor all his life rather than living his final years in untold opulence in control of the realm. As for the samurai and the merchants, take the briefest glance at Edo period theater, poetry, art, or literature and tell me they didn't fetishize warfare just as much as we in the west do now.

    For someone harping on the necessity of research, American Samurai, you seem to have done precious little of it.
    Wow, were to start, you are all over the place and so sure of your self and yet you post no references to back up the statements you make.

    First thing, I never disagreed with the premise that the
    "Sengoku Jidai period is often viewed with rose-colored glasses"
    in fact I agreed
    As far as the myth about samurai honor etc....I think western beliefs have clouded the reality of the times. To us now all the fighting and bloodshed is just entertainment but to the Japanese it was several hundred years of fighting and upheaval....
    If you had bothered to read what I said you would know that I was disputing this unreferenced blanket statement and
    the samurai had become a group of indolent, decadent bureaucrats who were more talented at getting into debt than they were with their weapons.
    . You agree with me that the reference that was produced to back up the statement was lame.
    American Samurai has a point about "the Illustrated sourcebook,"
    You agree that
    The Edo period did support a flourishing of arts, sciences, and featured a rather effective early modern "police state."
    and you agree with me here
    You call out everyone else, correctly, on blanket-statementing 250 years of history
    and
    The shogunate as an institution did a fantastic job of maintaining peace and order for 250 years
    So why dont you post the exact statements that I made which you ACTUALLY disagree with and post references that back up your beliefs, and I will reply to them along with references so people here can see for themselves which statements are true and possibly learn something other then reading unreferenced statements. Or you can put your tail between your legs and run away like the original poster did!!!! And please let us know were you guys are getting all this information that all samurai were broke and under the control of rich merchants. You must have read this some were, please enlighten us.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    Ok well you could start by reading "Musui's story," the author of which's wikipedia page I linked to in my post. Like I pointed out, for evidence of the rise of the merchants you can look at plays, especially the 47 Ronin, and the multitude of edicts passed by the late Tokugawa Shoguns (especially the sumptuary laws). See also "Prayer and Play in Late Tokugawa Japan: Asakusa Sensoji and Edo Society" by Nam-lin Hur or "Yoshiwara: The Glittering World of the Japanese Courtesan" by Cecilia Segawa Seigle for a clear view of the merchant counter-culture simmering under the surface. Hell, read the wikipedia page about the Tokugawa shogunate ("Historians claim that a major contributing factor to the decline of the Tokugawa was "poor management of the central government by the shogun, which caused the social classes in Japan to fall apart." [8] From the outset, the Tokugawa attempted to restrict families' accumulation of wealth and fostered a "back to the soil" policy, in which the farmer, the ultimate producer, was the ideal person in society." Found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugaw..._the_shogunate , read the next few paragraphs as well. You can look up the history textbooks they cite by clicking on the footnotes) or any history textbook, which all contain the historical and economic narrative of a monetizing economy and decline in Shogunal power. What is your counter-theory for the fall of the invincible, martially superior Shogunate you envision to outlying domains, if not the theory of a long decline based in fundamental misunderstanding of early modern economy advocated by basically every historian of the period?

    Meanwhile, speaking of throwing stones while living in glass houses, I notice that for all of your hot air about "let people have sources and learn something," you have posted a single primary source. One which I don't trust you to interpret. Honestly? I've read bits from the Edo period travel reader you referenced, and if anything it demonstrates the thriving economy and the fact that merchants, travelers, pilgrims, and more were building a connected, early modern economy on a monetary basis that left the Bakufu, with its agricultural bias, out of the loop.

    I don't appreciate your strawman argument that I somehow claimed "all samurai were broke and under the control of rich merchants." The majority of low-ranking samurai, yes, had persistent problems with debt. They were by no means "under the control" of the merchants, and I don't think you'll find me claiming that in my post. I think you have to realize that the Samurai class, especially in the Edo period, is much less monolithic and stable than you seem to believe. Certainly, the Shogunate clung to political power despite issues with debt (which does not mean they were beholden to their creditors--I mean, look at any Western state in the 18th century (much less the present) and find me one that didn't have a national debt), but lower-ranking samurai were not necessarily under the aegis of the Tokugawa family, and many were driven into poverty. If anything, that's the crux on which much of the social unrest was based; SOME samurai (while others continued in well-stipended posts high in the bureaucracy that was only in debt as an institution), legally and politically superior, unable to find a government or domainal post, basically had to resort to jobs they were technically disallowed from performing (see again Musui's story) while merchants, fabulously wealthy, were disallowed from building the houses or living the lifestyles they could afford but that would be "improper for their station (see again sumptuary laws)."

    I think my post was pretty well-formatted. The parts where I "actually disagree with you" are the second halves of all the sentences you quoted the first (statement) half of without the second (complication) part of. In contrast, your post consisted of cherry picking my topic sentences, declaring we were mostly in agreement, then demanding I "produce sources" (a requirement you are apparently exempt from). Meanwhile, regarding your "lame source..." I said you had a point, but please keep in mind that the fact that a source is not perfect doesn't mean that its information is necessarily false. Honestly, the narrative of economic rise of the merchants at the expense of the agrarian Shogunate is basically the syllabus for the Tokugawa day in literally any history class. It would be no surprise for it to be included in a book written even by the most amateur of amateurs.

    Making you worse than the most amateur of amateurs, I suppose.
    Last edited by Bolkonsky; May 02, 2011 at 10:39 AM. Reason: needlessly antagonizing

  18. #18

    Default Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    ... Literally the first sentence of my previous post is a primary source reference. There are at least 3 primary sources mentioned over its whole length (that are difficult to access--The Tokugawa Bakufu's edicts over time, plays such as the 47 Ronin, and Katsu's autobiography, plus I disputed your reading of the ONLY source you have called upon). However, I figured you might not have access to those, especially if you have no East Asian-centric academic library nearby. So I included at least two secondary sources (Nam-Lin Hur and Cecilia Segawa Seagle's excellent monographs). Then I figured you might be unable to access either of them, too, since they're academic books, so I suggested literally any world history book that includes a section on Japan. Even if you didn't want to crack one of those open, I linked a paragraph in wikipedia which itself is cited to a respected secondary source, Jansen's "Tokugawa to Meiji." The thing about wikipedia is that it may not always be the most accurate or the most detailed, but if something's on there on a major page, 9 times out of 10 it's the consensus of mainstream academics. You pull out the wikipedia reference, literally my last and most general reference of all, then put exclamation points and emoticons after it to express how it is insufficient for you. Then look up the primary or secondary sources!

    I'd also like to point out that people with a "real understanding of a subject" can read each other's writing, understand where they diverge, and respond without having to have a mauled-looking laundry list of pullquotes. Look in a scholarly journal and find where they've reproduced another professor's entire article and responded to each sentence one by one. (HINT: THEY DON'T DO THAT). They respond to arguments and have the capacity to remember them from when they read until when they write. If you read my first post again, it is extremely clear where I disagree with you (and you are objecting so much that I think you understand where). If you read my second post again, you will find additional support for my arguments that you seemed to object most to, along with additional sources to support those arguments.

    If I have a "real lack of knowledge on the subject," please enlighten me. With sources. Which I provided for my own well-reasoned "rambling smoke screens."
    Last edited by Bolkonsky; May 02, 2011 at 10:42 AM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    Quote Originally Posted by 毛利 元就 View Post
    ... Literally the first sentence of my previous post is a primary source reference. There are at least 3 primary sources mentioned over its whole length (that are difficult to access--The Tokugawa Bakufu's edicts over time, plays such as the 47 Ronin, and Katsu's autobiography, plus I disputed your reading of the ONLY source you have called upon). However, I figured you might not have access to those, especially if you have no East Asian-centric academic library nearby. So I included at least two secondary sources (Nam-Lin Hur and Cecilia Segawa Seagle's excellent monographs). Then I figured you might be unable to access either of them, too, since they're academic books, so I suggested literally any world history book that includes a section on Japan. Even if you didn't want to crack one of those open, I linked a paragraph in wikipedia which itself is cited to a respected secondary source, Jansen's "Tokugawa to Meiji." The thing about wikipedia is that it may not always be the most accurate or the most detailed, but if something's on there on a major page, 9 times out of 10 it's the consensus of mainstream academics. You pull out the wikipedia reference, literally my last and most general reference of all, then put exclamation points and emoticons after it to express how it is insufficient for you. Then look up the primary or secondary sources!

    I'd also like to point out that people with a "real understanding of a subject" can read each other's writing, understand where they diverge, and respond without having to have a mauled-looking laundry list of pullquotes. Look in a scholarly journal and find where they've reproduced another professor's entire article and responded to each sentence one by one. (HINT: THEY DON'T DO THAT). They respond to arguments and have the capacity to remember them from when they read until when they write. If you read my first post again, it is extremely clear where I disagree with you (and you are objecting so much that I think you understand where). If you read my second post again, you will find additional support for my arguments that you seemed to object most to, along with additional sources to support those arguments.

    If I have a "real lack of knowledge on the subject," please enlighten me. With sources. Which I provided for my own well-reasoned "rambling smoke screens."
    Once again you post no statements from me that you disagree with, no LINKS to any reference BOOKS and no QUOTES from any references that show were you are right and I am wrong...I never listed any references, I merely gave an example to the original poster of the type of book he should be looking at for information on the Edo period rather then the coffee table book he was relying on.
    For anyone who wants to have actual knowledge about Edo period Japan I would suggest reading books such as this one
    Can you comprehend that "I would suggest reading books SUCH AS THIS ONE". Were do you see me using it as a reference? By the way. I believe it is Cecilia Segawa Seigle, not Seagle.
    There are at least 3 primary sources mentioned over its whole length (that are difficult to access
    so you attempt to prove your point with references that you admit are "difficult to access"? Thats rather strange considering all the very good accessible reference books that are available. No links to these so called "difficult to access" references either.

    Maybe English is not your first language? I will try this again just in case. Post any statement that I made which you believe are not true...then post references and quotes from the references which you believe prove your point (and links to the references) and I will refute your statements with references and quotes from the references I post along with links to what ever I use as a reference.....very simple really.



    Your concern about Silius Saurus's welfare is so thoughtful. How wonderful of you to defend his honor, but when someone goes on a forum thats called "Historical Research Center" that clearly states "A forum for historical research covering the game's period. Please try to provide sources." and then posts a broad statement about a 250 year period of time with out a single reference and cant handle some one questioning were he got his information from and then says
    It's well documented
    Yea right "its well documented" the typical cop out of some one who does not know what they are talking about....sort of like what you are doing, telling me to read the "difficult to access" references that you list.
    Last edited by Bolkonsky; May 02, 2011 at 10:43 AM. Reason: continuity

  20. #20

    Default Re: Will The Real Samurai Please Stand Up?

    Once again you post no statements from me that you disagree with, no LINKS to any reference BOOKS and no QUOTES from any references that show were you are right and I am wrong...
    For any of those statements to make sense you must either have some of the worst reading comprehension I've ever come across, or you've simply not read what 毛利 元就 has written, just skimmed through it to find something to loosely base your next point on.

    I mean seriously, how can you not after all these posts identify where the two of you disagree? Your views of the edo jidai were clear from post 1, what 毛利 元就 disagreed with in this was clear from his first post. That the two of you are in fact in disagreement is hard to miss.

    Moreover he has provided numerous reference, don't tell me you're too lazy to actually look the names up rather than clicking a link. But if that's the case, I shall indulge you:

    The edicts of the Tokugawa bakufu: (in case you haven't read them yet I suggest you do)
    http://www2.uni-erfurt.de/ostasiatis...tion/index.htm

    Tale of the 47 Ronin:
    http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/wor...89919&pageno=1

    Musui's Story: (no full online source, but you can read some of it)
    http://www.amazon.com/Musuis-Story-A...4108809&sr=1-1

    Prayer and Play in Late Tokugawa Japan: Asakusa Sensoji and Edo Society: (nothing online on this but at least you know where to find it)
    http://www.amazon.com/Prayer-Play-La.../dp/0674002407

    Yoshiwara: The Glittering World of the Japanese Courtesan: (you can read the whole thing online here)
    http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=596595

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