[ISIII] Units Documents needed

[wangrin]

First of all, very good work Swerg

Do you think you could use a spreadsheet like for the French units roster ?
Something like this :


We are also interesting by technology tree for Russia, Swede, Prussia and Austria.
For instance, French and English techtree look like this :

FRANCE :

Philosophy techtree :


Army techtree :


Artillery techtree :

GREAT-BRITAIN :

Philosophy techtree :

About "smaller" units, we don't have added Gardes Françaises nor Gardes Suisses grenadiers.
Same for Gardes Françaises artillery (they use 4pdr cannons).

I don't know what Flikitos think about this question.

[ErikBerg]

We are also interesting by technology tree for Russia, Swede, Prussia and Austria.

I could probably whip up a preliminary roster and tech tree for Sweden. I have a few ideas on technologies written down in a Word-document, with your French and English tech trees as a model.

[wangrin]

I have to add English army and artillery techtree, they are different from French ones.

[Flaviuss]

My friends, in my view, your presentation contains a number of incorrect positions. Objections to paint on them I can later. At the moment I am the way and I do not have this capability. After all, other than statements required argument. The conditions for effective work, I will appear only in the fall. However, with most of my views on this subject can be found in the files of my work. Link to it is represented in the signature.

[Swerg]

@wangrin
I intended to once it was 'done'. Much easier to edit in text format.

I can probably throw together a tech tree for Russia as well. The tech tree in IS2 is actually fairly adequate as far as the infantry/cavalry line goes.

In regards to the historically smaller units, I was thinking that this would basically make up for Russia's lack of extra-national units and put more emphasis on the small, elite corps of units that make up the core of the Russian army.

@Flaviuss
You certainly have more units, but I don't think that they, for example, wanted specific regiments that weren't famously 'elite' or somehow unique. And as I said, this is a sort of preliminary listing. I intended to flesh things out assuming this one was found acceptable.

[ErikBerg]

It is not as pretty as Wangrin's spreadsheet, but here is a rough draft I quickly threw together with Excel.

[wangrin]

Thanks Erikberg

How the Swedish artillery evolve during XVIIIth century ?

[Y Brenin]

Very interesting tech trees Wrangrin, I like the direction you are taking them. Just a few spelling corrections for the British however: Empirism -> Empiricism, Encyclopedie-> Encyclopaedia, Right of Man -> Rights of Man.

[ErikBerg]

To be honest, I don't know that much about Swedish artillery. I just listed different calibers and gun-types that were in use throughout the 18th century. I'm gonna look into it further!

[Swerg]

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4843/russroster.png

Basically, that is the 'everything that existed in a significant capacity' roster.

I'm less certain about the late-era units. It's a pain to find anything accurate on that era, particularly the artillery, which I based on the early Napoleonic (1796-1800-ish) era. I was fortunate to find a complete listing of all Russian regiments from 1796, though, even if that is the very tail-end of Catherine's rule.

I'd be glad to answer any questions and discuss possible modifications.

[wangrin]

Good job

Do you know if uniforms were different depending of region ?
If I remember, Flaviuss said that, during late XVIIIth century, southern armies wore the Potemkin uniform while northern armies (Baltic) wore a more Prussian looking one.


Flikitos, could you move all posts about Russian units roster to Russian Graphic or Russian Gameplay thread ?

[Swerg]

Good job

Do you know if uniforms were different depending of region ?
If I remember, Flaviuss said that, during late XVIIIth century, southern armies wore the Potemkin uniform while northern armies (Baltic) wore a more Prussian looking one.


Flikitos, could you move all posts about Russian units roster to Russian Graphic or Russian Gameplay thread ?

In the early days of Peter's reign, every unit basically wore the same cut of clothes, but the regiment's commander chose the colors (hence why the early Semenovsky wore light blue jackets instead of the green worn by the Preobrazhensky.) There was also some variation in headgear, with a few units wearing a kartuz, which is sort of like the predecessor to the ushanka, instead of the tricorn.

I believe that shortly after Narva the regulations were changed to the classic green and red, with the unit's facings varying depending on region.

I haven't seen that confirmed in text, but it would make sense, although I think that point would be out of the game's 'range'. Paul I hated everything to do with his mother (Catherine II) and reverted Russia's uniforms from the more comfortable and practical (by the standard of the day) Potemkin uniform to the tight German style. Obviously units in the south, away from St. Petersburg, would be slower to receive their new uniforms and more likely to simply not wear the new style until they really had to.

Once you fellows are ready to start on Russian models/textures, I can supply some images and suggestions on that front as well.

[ErikBerg]

I've attached an update on the Swedish roster. I've added a unit I forgot earlier, and some other smaller changes.

I also have some information on Swedish artillery, what changes it went through and such.

Johan Siöblad, an artillery officer, greatly improved the equipment of the artillery between c. 1660 and 1690. During Charles XI's reign, the amount of artillery guns was also doubled from 3 000 to 6 000. This was made possible by casting guns from iron rather than gunmetal (a bronze alloy, 88-92% copper and 12-8% tin). Iron guns were identical to bronze guns in terms of firepower and weight, but were cheaper to produce - for the cost of one bronze gun, you could make three iron guns. In 1690, Siöblad wrote the first regulations on Swedish artillery. In the early Great Northern War, he led the artillery at Narva and at the crossing of the Daugava river.

The next great leap came with Carl Cronstedt. His first contribution was improving the small regimental guns. He introduced a new carriage that could be advanced muzzle towards the enemy, needing only a single horse and a pair of booms to maneuver (see attached picture). He also re-introduced 'geschwinda skott', a device known from the Thirty Years' War that combined powder and shot into a single cartridge, enabling the regimental guns to fire much faster than musketeers. Cronstedts new guns were put to the test in the battle of Helsingborg in 1710 and they passed with flying colours. The guns also played a big part in the battle of Gadebusch in 1712, prompting the Swedish commanding general of both battles, Magnus Stenbock, to write to Charles XII; "Next to God, we have Cronstedt and his cannon to thank for this victory". 1712 was also the year that Cronstedt introduced an adjustment screw invented by scientist Christopher Polhem for the artillery carriages, making it easier to elevate the guns (though it doesn't seem to have fully replaced the wedge that was also used).

After the Great Northern War, Cronstedt introduced a new artillery system in 1725. This time, the entire artillery branch was improved, not only regimental guns. The main traits of this system was simplicity, uniformity, strength and mobility.

The next pioneer was Augustin Ehrensvärd. He was a teacher and head of the short-lived artillery information school in 1739, and wrote a textbook on artillery shells in 1741. His greatest contribution, however, was the practice of casting cannon whole and then drilling them, to reduce the windage gap between barrel and shot. He modernised the artillery in c. 1749-50.

After Ehrensvärd, things stood still until Carl von Cardell introduced horse artillery in 1792.

[wangrin]

Basically, Sweden should have a very good artillery at the beginning.

Using your informations :

Sweden could begin the game with the Siöblad's artillery system.

The second artillery system could be divide into two technologies :

1. Regimental artillery to add new light guns, probably one of the first technology to research (artillery)
2. Cronstedt's artillery system, a technology available only at the begining of the second level (artillery building)

The third artillery system or modernization should be Ehrensvärd's method.
This technology could replace old artillery with a new one or simply give better performances.
What do you think about ?

As most of European powers, the "Horse artillery" technology will be one of the latest that Sweden will be able to research.

Do you know Ehrensvärd's book title ?
It could become a technology equivalent to "abaques d'artillerie" to give accuracy bonus.

Artillery school will be a technology too, probably late second level ou early third level building.


Thanks a lot for your help


P.S Do you have information about Swedish gun powder : how did they produce/buy it, how did they control it, etc.

[ErikBerg]

Yes, beginning with Siöblad's system is a given. Perhaps the guns of this system should be very slow or even immobile?

I like your idea as to the second system, it is a lot like what I had in mind myself!
Dividing it into two makes sense, as the light guns arrived 15 years before the all-encompassing system came into use.

Ehrensvärd's method should give better performance, I think. I forgot to add that he also ran scientific experiments to determine how barrel length would affect shot performance.

His book was called "Anledning til skiuta och kasta bomber i almenhet och i synnerhet vid en belägring". The first word, anledning, today means "reason" as in a reason to do something, but I'm wondering if it in his time meant "instruction". In that case, the name means "Instructions on firing and throwing bombs in general and especially at a siege". As it was a textbook to be used in education, this translation maybe makes more sense. If the drilling method increases accuracy of guns, this technology would concern mortars and howitzers best.

The school was called "Cadettcompagniet vid Kongliga Artilleriregementet", which means "Cadet company of the Royal Artillery Regiment".

As for gun powder, it was produced in factories owned by the crown as the nation needed to be self-sufficient. In the spirit of mercantilism, the crown also had a monopoly on saltpeter production at first, but later this monopoly was lifted so that during peacetime farmers could make their own saltpeter to sell to foreign nations.

[HighOnTea]

Since the discussion is about Sweden, what are the plans for early era uniform for them?
Would the models resemble the ones of other countries?
And just because I've not seen if any pics for grenadiers were posted:
Attachment 230282

[Swerg]

I think I mentioned this before in another topic, but one of the rather ironic things about the Great Northern War was that a lot of Russia's initial effective artillery was actually Swedish. Charles XII's predecessor gave the Russians something like 150 6lb cannons for their last war against the Poles (where they captured Kiev.) That's history for you

Also, having talked with Flikitos on Steam a bit, we discussed Russia's late era uniforms. Specifically, there are two options:

The 'Potemkin' uniform:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Used from 1788 to 1796

Or the more classic 'German' uniform:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This particular example being employed from 1763 to 1786.

Since the Potemkin style uniform has already been made (many thanks to Flaviuss ) it would seem silly not to use it, but then we'd miss out on the classic styling of those sexy bicorns.

My thinking is that Russia's regular army units would use the new 'Potemkin' uniform, basically reflecting the units that were stationed nearer the capital or in more convenient places getting their new uniforms first, while the elite 'Suvorov' units would use the old bicorns and suchlike, reflecting the fact that Suvorov spent most of his career fighting the Turks and wouldn't have received the uniforms quite so quickly. This also gives people an easy method to distinguish between units on the battlefield, of course. It would also reflect the reversion to German style uniforms when Catherine II died, which was when Suvorov's most famous campaign took place (march over the Alps and all that jazz.)

[ErikBerg]

Since the discussion is about Sweden, what are the plans for early era uniform for them?
Would the models resemble the ones of other countries?
And just because I've not seen if any pics for grenadiers were posted

Actually, grenadier hats like the one in your pic were very rare in the Swedish army in the early period. Charles XII had a very spartan taste, and the colonels themselves would have to pay for it. Grenadiers who wore mitres were in a distinct minority.

As for the early uniform in general, I'm sort of hoping the team will model them after the iconic Carolean soldier, with coat skirts hooked up and so.

[wangrin]

If I remember, Flaviuss said that Potemkine uniform was not generalized to the whole army and was mostly use by south armies.
Baltic troops wore a more Prussian looking uniform.

Flikitos and Flaviuss already worked on Potemkine uniform, that right.
But if Baltic army uniform are similar to Prussian, it will be easy to add them.
The idea here is to give a more "regional" look to Russian armies based on A.O.R.
For instance, unit wearing Potemkine uniform could be only available in southern regions while units wearing a Prussian like uniform will be available in all other regions.

[Swerg]

Hmm, doing a little searching, and this is by no means definitive, it seems that Russian troops wore the Potemkin style uniform in the north by the time of the 1788 Russo-Swedish War. I imagine it had more to do with the troops which were under Potemkin's direct supervision/command than with geography. Even by this point, Russian commanders had a great deal of freedom as to how they dressed their regiments.

See Suvorov's ordering his soldiers to cut off their queues and wear comfortable boots during the Swiss campaign.

Perhaps make the Potemkin uniform a researchable option, giving soldiers a slight moral boost and increased campaign movement, since it was a uniform designed to be comfortable rather than pretty, as well as updating the models.