[GENERAL DISCUSSION] [SPOILERS] HBO's Game of Thrones Series

[Skizbot]

double postt

[Skizbot]

You stated that the characters were deliberately gay. How else would they act other than being openly gay?

The fact that GRRM created 2 gay characters does not mean that they are going to act openly gay. There are many real homosexual people who aren't openly gay. Not every gay person acts "gay" as you might interpret it. In a medieval society with strict ideas of gender roles, it makes sense for gay men to not be open about it.


"Closet gay" and "deliberately gay" are not contradictions. GRRM wrote two gay characters who are not open to the outside world about their sexuality, but nonetheless other characters suspect it, and we see hints of it.

When one is deliberate, its usually displayed through actions or acts. Otherwise, one cannot be presumed to be deliberate. My goodnes is right!

"One cannot be presumed to be deliberate" doesn't make any sense.

The deliberate action in this case was that of GRRM, who wrote two gay characters, Renly Baratheon and Loras Tyrell.



Anyway, I starting to get the sense that you're more interested in arguing for the sake of arguing than actually discussing anything at this point, so I'll end it here. I get the impression that you initially used the term "deliberately" incorrectly, and now really do not want to admit that. If I'm incorrect and you would like to continue, I would ask you to simply address these posts:

I didn't think they were deliberately gay. Closet gay, yes, but deliberately gay, no.

I'm not disputing that they are gay.

You mentioned earlier that you did not contradict yourself. If that's the case, what does this mean? If you simply used the word deliberately wrong, thats fine. But if not, help me to understand your point. If you don't want to discuss those two posts, I'll let this thread get back on track.

[HannibalExMachina]

indeed, i think this is pointless.

btw, here is a definition:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deliberately

one cant be deliberatley be gay. one is gay, or one isnt. i cant be deliberatley caucasian, can i?

[Skizbot]

It wouldn't make sense to say a human being was deliberately gay, but the creator of these fictional characters decided they were gay. So this

I didn't think they were deliberately gay. Closet gay, yes, but deliberately gay, no.

just doesn't make sense.

GRRM deliberately decided to make Renly Baratheon and Loras Tyrell gay when he came up with the idea for these two characters (which was something the original poster I responded to hadn't realized while reading). The fact that GRRM also deliberately made them in the closet doesn't change that fact.


Anyway, getting back to the point: I feel like the show made this plot point more silly than the books did. I don't mind it being explicit, the show isn't based around PoV characters like the books were so we're going to see certain things we never witnessed in the book, but Renly being afraid to have sex with Margery in last weeks episode was dumb. Renly was no idiot, the fact that he don't love da pussay wouldn't have stopped him from making plenty of heirs, had he lived. TV Renly was changed more from his book counterpart than practically any other character...but I believe tomorrow night will be the last we see of him.

[HannibalExMachina]

the problem is that they made renly a wuss. i can understand that he doesnt get it up because he is uncomfortable, but he wants to be king for effs sake.

the scene seems to be there just to rub in our faces: yes, he is gay! so he doesnt like women!

we get it, ok? we are not some cave dwellers.

[lh197]

open - closeted
deliberate - unintentional
case closed.
Unless anyone wants to start the argument that Renly was gay by choice and should've attended sexual reorientation therapy to help him stop sinning...
As for that scene, i think that's symptomatic of the way the writers are treating their viewers at times this season. Last year they were like the Wire, treated you like you were intelligent, this year they seem to assume they need to make everything jarringly (for a book reader) obvious.

[Sanguinary Guardian]

As for that scene, i think that's symptomatic of the way the writers are treating their viewers at times this season. Last year they were like the Wire, treated you like you were intelligent, this year they seem to assume they need to make everything jarringly (for a book reader) obvious.

They think us so stupid that they changed the name of Asha so as not to confuse her with Osha. Yes, that's how much they underestimate the viewers' intelligence. The gal is also miscast, horribly so.

On the other hand Brienne was spot on. She was one of the few things I liked in the second and third episodes.

[Chris Perry]

On the other hand Brienne was spot on. She was one of the few things I liked in the second and third episodes.

Yeah, I loved the scene when Catelyn was walking next to Brienne, and we saw just how freakishly tall she is!
I can't wait to see how she develops in the series. That should be one of the things HBO gets right.

[Mount Suribachi]

[Sardaukar One]

The fact that GRRM created 2 gay characters does not mean that they are going to act openly gay. There are many real homosexual people who aren't openly gay. Not every gay person acts "gay" as you might interpret it. In a medieval society with strict ideas of gender roles, it makes sense for gay men to not be open about it.

Thanks for pointing that out!

"Closet gay" and "deliberately gay" are not contradictions. GRRM wrote two gay characters who are not open to the outside world about their sexuality, but nonetheless other characters suspect it, and we see hints of it.

You are the one who stated that Renly and Loras were deliberately gay. Or written deliberately gay.
So whats the difference between being gay and deliberately gay? Or being written gay or deliberately gay?
I expect you will avoid this question as you have before.

"One cannot be presumed to be deliberate" doesn't make any sense.

The deliberate action in this case was that of GRRM, who wrote two gay characters, Renly Baratheon and Loras Tyrell.

How does one do something thats considered deliberate? According to you, how they act has nothing to do with it. That doesn't make any sense!

Anyway, I starting to get the sense that you're more interested in arguing for the sake of arguing than actually discussing anything at this point, so I'll end it here. I get the impression that you initially used the term "deliberately" incorrectly, and now really do not want to admit that. If I'm incorrect and you would like to continue, I would ask you to simply address these posts:

If I am arguing for the sake of arguing, what are you doing? Thats the pot calling the kettle black.
Didn't you infer that people are stupid when you said the following

Some people are not smart enough

Go on claiming you don't like to argue. You look like a hypocrite when you try to take the high ground. What do I mean look like!

I have already said that I took the following sentence

Renly and Loras were gay in the books. Deliberately gay.

to mean that you meant they were openly gay. I bet i'm not the only one.

You mentioned earlier that you did not contradict yourself. If that's the case, what does this mean? If you simply used the word deliberately wrong, thats fine. But if not, help me to understand your point. If you don't want to discuss those two posts, I'll let this thread get back on track.

This has already been explained by me a number of times. As I stated above, I assumed you meant that Renly and Loras were openly gay, which they are not. One can be gay without being openly gay no?

indeed, i think this is pointless.

Tell it to the Skiz!

btw, here is a definition:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deliberately

I see that the opposite of Deliberate is not accidental. Isn't that a position you espoused not so long ago?
And what were you saying about understanding what words meant etc?

one cant be deliberatley be gay. one is gay, or one isnt. i cant be deliberatley caucasian, can i?

A subject that Skizbot chooses to dance around everytime in comes up. Perhaps he missed it?

It wouldn't make sense to say a human being was deliberately gay, but the creator of these fictional characters decided they were gay. So this


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardaukar One
I didn't think they were deliberately gay. Closet gay, yes, but deliberately gay, no.

just doesn't make sense.

I thought you were going to let the thread continue and stop arguing?
Some might say you contradicted yourself!

GRRM deliberately decided to make Renly Baratheon and Loras Tyrell gay when he came up with the idea for these two characters (which was something the original poster I responded to hadn't realized while reading). The fact that GRRM also deliberately made them in the closet doesn't change that fact.

How about GRRM decided that Renly and Loras would have a sexual relationship and

In a medieval society with strict ideas of gender roles, it makes sense for gay men to not be open about it.

If Renly and Loras not being open about their relationship, whats so deliberate about making them gay?
I think this is way down on the deliberate rankings with GRRM for his characters in GOT.

Anyway, getting back to the point:

For real? Its not the first time you have said that!

I feel like the show made this plot point more silly than the books did. I don't mind it being explicit, the show isn't based around PoV characters like the books were so we're going to see certain things we never witnessed in the book, but Renly being afraid to have sex with Margery in last weeks episode was dumb. Renly was no idiot, the fact that he don't love da pussay wouldn't have stopped him from making plenty of heirs, had he lived. TV Renly was changed more from his book counterpart than practically any other character...but I believe tomorrow night will be the last we see of him.

For once, something you have said that I can agree with!

For the last god damn time, I presumed that you meant Renly and Loras were openly gay when you used deliberate with them. This is clearly not what you meant. But you keep on harping on about it.

Do I have to explain this every post?

I hope this board doesn't crash because I have no idea what you would do with yourself otherwise!

[Sardaukar One]

open - closeted
deliberate - unintentional
case closed.

I believe I pointed that out a few posts back, but thanks for being thorough!

They think us so stupid that they changed the name of Asha so as not to confuse her with Osha. Yes, that's how much they underestimate the viewers' intelligence. The gal is also miscast, horribly so.

On the other hand Brienne was spot on. She was one of the few things I liked in the second and third episodes.

I have to thank HBO for introducing me to GOT. Otherwise I doubt I would ever have gone near the books.
But I would also have to say that the show is being developed for those who have never read the books.
Thats probably their target audience. Those who I know who like the show the most are those who have never read the books. A friend of mine didn't even know there were books.

[Skizbot]

This is very, very simple. You said you did not believe that the ASOIAF characters of Renly and Loras in the books were deliberately gay. Thats incorrect. The only issue here is that you've drawn a connection between "being deliberately written as gay" and "being openly gay". Thats all.

I didn't think they were deliberately gay. Closet gay, yes, but deliberately gay, no.

A poster thought that it was the TV show that made them gay, and that GRRM had not intended for them to be that way. I told the poster that, in fact, the author HAD deliberately made them gay, and the TV show had not invented that. You thought deliberate meant that they were openly, obviously, or clearly gay. It doesn't in any way. You are allowed to occasionally make a mistake with interpreting words. Its ok, chill and move on.

For the last god damn time, I presumed that you meant Renly and Loras were openly gay when you used deliberate with them. This is clearly not what you meant. But you keep on harping on about it.

As you say here,you misunderstood the meaning of the word deliberate, and though it meant something about being open. That was a mistake, which I think you've realized by now, so I don't know what you're arguing anymore. No one thinks you're dumb, we all occasionally misunderstand certain words. This is getting silly, sentence like this:

If Renly and Loras not being open about their relationship, whats so deliberate about making them gay?
I think this is way down on the deliberate rankings with GRRM for his characters in GOT.

do not make any sort of sense.

[Skizbot]

I see that the opposite of Deliberate is not accidental. Isn't that a position you espoused not so long ago?
And what were you saying about understanding what words meant etc?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deliberate

Please read the first listing under "antonyms" (an antonym is a word with an opposite meaning).

[Beradrin]

I'm sorry for being in the middle of this discussion, but this argument about being openly gay, deliberately gay, closet gay, etc.. is becoming a bit stupid. Sorry if I offended anyone.
A person is gay or isn't. Clearly in the books and in the TV show they are lovers...

Going on-topic, I really like the design used in the helmets that Renly's army used. Those golden antlers (I think that's the word) look awesome. I mean, if a soldier looses his sword, he can ram against the face of his oponent with those things and tear a eye out.

[Prophet1331]

I'm sorry for being in the middle of this discussion, but this argument about being openly gay, deliberately gay, closet gay, etc.. is becoming a bit stupid. Sorry if I offended anyone.
A person is gay or isn't. Clearly in the books and in the TV show they are lovers...

Going on-topic, I really like the design used in the helmets that Renly's army used. Those golden antlers (I think that's the word) look awesome. I mean, if a soldier looses his sword, he can ram against the face of his oponent with those things and tear a eye out.

I didn't get a good look at the soldiers. But Renly's banner looks interesting, thought from what I know in the books it is supposed to be the simple Baratheon stag.

[jacb547]

I didn't get a good look at the soldiers. But Renly's banner looks interesting, thought from what I know in the books it is supposed to be the simple Baratheon stag.

Yes I found weird they are a little blue

[Dux]

Yes I found weird they are a little blue

I thought it was a giant golden stag on green. Green representing the Tyrells, golden stag representing Renly and the Stormlands.

[Prophet1331]

It was probably intended to be some sort of green for the Tyrells, but it reminds me of Velaryon who are Stannis' bannermen

http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of...es/rbaratheon/

It looks green here.

[lh197]

@Sardaukar One : Skiz wasn't actually where the term originated from, he was responding to someone's use of it. Anyway, enough semantics it's hurting my brain, and everybody is wrong.

As for Renly's banner, guess it's to help distinguish it from Stannis' banners or something? And to give a more Tyrelly feel to the place

[Pinkie Pie]

Someone earlier stated that he knows some people that have watched the show but did not know about the books. I will go one better because i know someone who watches the show but refuses to read the books