[GENERAL DISCUSSION] [SPOILERS] HBO's Game of Thrones Series

[SoulGamesInc]

jons position is still unreasonable. what good will "now" do if you cant possibly win?

Jons position is one of two things. 1: Attack, and hope for the best with what hes got. 2: Wait out the Winter, that could last centuries and will bring a horde of almost unstoppable demons with it. It is very much now or never.

[HannibalExMachina]

thats a pretty forced conflict, winter is already here, and the white walker wont exactly jump jon just because he needs a few weeks more.

[SoulGamesInc]

winter is already here, and the white walker wont exactly jump jon just because he needs a few weeks more.

Winter is not already there, it will continue to get drastically worse, coming from a book standpoint at least. It would take months, not weeks, to go from castle to castle begging for support from all the lords; while doing this men would desert in favor of their warm homes and wives. As Winter progresses the Others get closer and closer and closer. If the Wall falls and Jon is still freezeing his arse off in the snow then the North will fall shortly afterwards.

Time is NOT on his side, his view of 'now or never' is a perfectly understandable and logical view. The longer he delays the thinner his odds become. The prospect may not be a pretty one but the alternative is far from better.

[HannibalExMachina]

well, i think you have an exagerated sense of distance here, if you consider travelling time in the books. and what men would desert? the wildlings? his sixty good mormonts?

[SoulGamesInc]

well, i think you have an exagerated sense of distance here, if you consider travelling time in the books. and what men would desert? the wildlings? his sixty good mormonts?

The North is practically the size of the entire South. Add the weather and you've piss poor traveling conditions coupled with very long distances. It takes 3 days ride (in good conditions, pre-winder) just to get from Winterfell to the Wolfswood. Lets be generous and say 2 days in good conditions if you ride hard. In the winter travel time would be doubled and in the dead of winter travel would be all but impossible. I doubt HBO will ever show Winter has it's portrayed in the books mind you. As for deserting, it's not just Wildlings and sixty Mormonts. Hornwood is there to name just one... there are others mentioned and banners seen but I don't care to go look see.

If Jon rode around aimlessly in the snow (assuming he survives the trips in the first place) for what would be at LEAST a month if not two, he'd find haft his army having gone home to survive the winter by the time he was 'ready' to attack. And, while Jon was riding around, Bolton sits pretty behind high walls with provisions and fresh troops to fight Jon's tired, frozen and lackluster army of popsicles. All while the army of the dead knocks down the wall; because we all know once Bran crossed the wall with the Night Kings mark on his arm, the magic protecting it will shatter just like the hill did. The Others would win, because Jon spent too much time playing in the snow.

All of this would be immaterial if Sansa stopped being stupid and told Jon about the 'I Win' button. Add the Knight's of the Vale to Jon/Sansa's cause and the entire reason for Jon risking everything becomes null.

[SoulGamesInc]

All of this would be immaterial if Sansa stopped being stupid and told Jon about the 'I Win' button.

It occurs to me that once again a load of northmen are going to get needlessly slaughtered because of Stark stupidity and selfishness... maybe we're better of with the Boltons.

[Kid Stein]

actually, sansa is a stark, that makes a lot revolving. her feelings? she has been beaten and raped, i dont think she is exactly guilty of complaining about her feelings.

i can agree that keeping such a big secret is paranoid at best, but as i said, i can understand if she doesnt trust jon.

jons position is still unreasonable. what good will "now" do if you cant possibly win? and the weather has held up nicely since stannis died. if a storm breaks tomorrow, they will be stuck anyway, and they dont need month of detours. they dont have to drag the entire army to every castle in the north.


they kept in cersei, true, likely to make her more sympathetic on some level (jaime in the books doesnt exactly turn away on his own). the rest of jaimes development is unchanged, perhaps you shouldnt look at a character as an extension of another?

Sansa is a Stark. And Sansa was a Stark when she was a prisoner in King's Landing. A Stark when she was forced to marry Tyrion. A Stark when she was forced to marry Ramsay. Her being a Stark didn't protect her from anything. And at this point, her name alone isn't even enough for her own people to follow her. That's the thing about this series. Your name doesn't actually mean . Tyrion was nearly executed and he's a Lannister. Jamie was a prisoner for months and he's a Lannister. Viserys was a Targaryen and he had his skull melted. Oberyn was a Martell and we know what happened there.

Sansa should learn by now that her name doesn't offer her any protection. It doesn't mean everyone will do what she says when she says it. She's still acting like because her last name is Stark that she's in charge and people should do what she wants. And yes she is letting her feelings affect things. Her feelings towards Baelish are the only things keeping her from telling Jon about the army of the Vale that could help them reclaim their home and save their brother. Not once does she say it's a political issue. Not once does she talk about the fact that Littlefinger may try and claim Winterfell if she lets him help. It's just her feelings towards the man.

Jon is not being unreasonable at all. Either he waits and let's the White Walkers come and kill everyone because they're not united. Or he attacks with what he's got and hopes they have enough. Jon has a time limit here. He can't just sit around hoping more people join him. Not only would that risk an attack by the White Walkers or the Boltons, but it also risks Wildlings abandoning him. Or killing each other. He's in an impossible position, just like he was in when he was the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. The only person being unreasonable is Sansa, who has access to an army that could bolster their faces by a LOT. And strategically could attack Winterfell from two sides. And yet... She's mad at Baelish so she won't say anything about it? When her brothers life is at risk?


Jamie absolutely does turn her away on his own. She wants him to be Hand of the King to be closer to her, and he refuses. Then during the siege of Riverrun he gets her letter she sent him asking for help. To come save her. And he tossed it in the fire. He reflects on what she's done and how she's betrayed him on more than once occasion. And he's done with her. Jamies development as a character is very much tied to his feelings for his sister and his family. For a long time he had lost all sense and belief in honor. When he killed Aerys, he saved thousands of lives. Yet he was accused of being dishonorable. You can tell that years of that treatment soured him on honor what it means to be a knight. His imprisonment and meeting Brienne sparked a change in him. Loyalty, honor, duty. She personified that. He trusted Brienne because she's trustworthy. His sister isn't and he can see that clearly.

Yes, he's still a dick. Which is fine. There's nothing that says you have to be a nice guy to be honorable. But you can tell he was beginning to change in the books. He nearly got in a fight because someone was insulting Brienne. Are you telling me that's not a huge change for the character? Who else would he do that for besides family? Loyalty and love for his family caused him to become a pretty person and he recognized that. He spent his life doing what his sister and father wanted and when they wanted it. Now he's finally away from them. Leading the army. Able to give his own commands for once.

Maybe you're not remembering the books entirely, or you just don't find Jaime to be a relatable character. But he's far more dynamic in the books and the show is completely taking that away.

[AndariusHaliusScipio]

It occurs to me that once again a load of northmen are going to get needlessly slaughtered because of Stark stupidity and selfishness... maybe we're better of with the Boltons.

I don't understand why/where you're getting this sentiment. As well, Ramsay Bolton is beyond unstable in terms of governance and is doing a decent enough job of slaughtering loads of northmen (mostly lords) while agitating the rest. If this sort of behavior weren't commonplace in historical examples of brutal tyrants whose countries subsequently collapse, I'd say it was ridiculous cartoon villainy.

[SoulGamesInc]

I don't understand why/where you're getting this sentiment.

If you don't understand from the walls of text I have already typed, well, I'm not spelling it out for you I'm afraid. I've done more than enough talking here for at least a month.

[AndariusHaliusScipio]

based on what your apparent original post was, it's a sound argument from a logical standpoint. But these people and politics aren't logical. The Northern lords are likely already freaked out that Jon Snow, who should be Lord Commander of Nights Watch, is invading Winterfell with an army of wildlings. Adding in a southern invasion by southerners ostensibly being led by a very well-known Lannister agent would incite a -storm of swords that casual bigotry towards Wildlings would be easier to overcome.

and I thought it was blazingly obvious from a narrative standpoint that Sansa hates Baelish and not just because of him lying to her; she's personally witnessed that when he's given a proverbial inch, he will eat everything in his path. He went from a disrespected courtling to an absentee lord of a barren fort to stepfather and legal guardian of the lord of an entire province/landmass. Imagine just letting that into Winterfell with a fully supplied, fresh army.

It won't be seen as the Starks re-taking their ancestral home, it will be seen as the Vale, under control of the prolific Lannister agent Petyr Baelish, invading the North. There's no way in hell the northern lords would openly throw in with Jon and Sansa after that, thick and stubborn as they are.

[VaeVictis]

Does anyone remember one of the season 6 trailers where we hear a voiceover from Tormund Giantsbane saying "I thought he was the one to lead us through the Long Night, I was wrong" or something along those lines? I don't really remember hearing him say that yet this season. Now we have a scene during the preview for episode 8 where Jon is telling Melisandre to "not bring him back if he falls". The episode synopsis allegedly says that "a beloved falls" as well. Something to ponder on. I am not too worried with the ToJ reveal looming.

[sneahcst]

Does anyone remember one of the season 6 trailers where we hear a voiceover from Tormund Giantsbane saying "I thought he was the one to lead us through the Long Night, I was wrong" or something along those lines? I don't really remember hearing him say that yet this season. Now we have a scene during the preview for episode 8 where Jon is telling Melisandre to "not bring him back if he falls". The episode synopsis allegedly says that "a beloved falls" as well. Something to ponder on. I am not too worried with the ToJ reveal looming.

Tormund already said that line in episode 1

[A Man]

Tormund is talking about Mance there, don't worry.

[Kid Stein]

based on what your apparent original post was, it's a sound argument from a logical standpoint. But these people and politics aren't logical. The Northern lords are likely already freaked out that Jon Snow, who should be Lord Commander of Nights Watch, is invading Winterfell with an army of wildlings. Adding in a southern invasion by southerners ostensibly being led by a very well-known Lannister agent would incite a -storm of swords that casual bigotry towards Wildlings would be easier to overcome.

and I thought it was blazingly obvious from a narrative standpoint that Sansa hates Baelish and not just because of him lying to her; she's personally witnessed that when he's given a proverbial inch, he will eat everything in his path. He went from a disrespected courtling to an absentee lord of a barren fort to stepfather and legal guardian of the lord of an entire province/landmass. Imagine just letting that into Winterfell with a fully supplied, fresh army.

It won't be seen as the Starks re-taking their ancestral home, it will be seen as the Vale, under control of the prolific Lannister agent Petyr Baelish, invading the North. There's no way in hell the northern lords would openly throw in with Jon and Sansa after that, thick and stubborn as they are.

Except Sansa never once said she was scared of the political ramifications. All she's shown was that she was mad at him for marrying her off to Ramsay. So that's an awful big assumption on your part, thinking the reason is because she's worried about the Vale taking control of Winterfell instead of her.

[A Man]

I doubt Baelish can take Winterfell for himself even if he wanted to. All Sansa needs to do in that case is tell lords of the Vale that it was him that killed Lysa and bye bye. And the lords of the Vale would not obey Baelish in the first place, they were told they are going to save Sansa, not take Winterfell for themselves.

[AndariusHaliusScipio]

Except Sansa never once said she was scared of the political ramifications. All she's shown was that she was mad at him for marrying her off to Ramsay. So that's an awful big assumption on your part, thinking the reason is because she's worried about the Vale taking control of Winterfell instead of her.

"mad at him for marrying her off to Ramsay" is a colossal understatement. And it's not even remotely ridiculous to suggest that she would be very much aware that given the chance, he would snatch the opportunity to better his own position or to make a name for himself.

She's seen him do it multiple times before. I don't see her as thinking explicitly about the political imagery, but the more immediate fear that Baelish will attempt to somehow claim the title, glory, fame, or even just the insinuation that HE took Winterfell proper, not Jon Snow, any possible strand he can pull on to undermine the legitimacy of Jon Snow's (supposed) victory, and thus her victory.

Could imagine it being said like "My lady, the Vale has bled for your father when he joined in Robert's Rebellion. It has bled for you now at the walls of Winterfell. Is it not fair that the Vale take a small part in the restoration of Winterfell to its former glory?" and by that meaning garrisoning Winterfell with House Arryn troops, while he slithers himself into the administrative business of ruling the North


Also, the Lords of the Vale aren't stupid; they know if Jon Snow's army is defeated, Sansa will end up frozen to death or in Ramsay's hands. If their purpose is to protect Sansa Stark, then taking Winterfell is inevitable, unless they think it wise to attack Jon Snow's force, agitating the Northern lords and risking having Sansa flee or die in the process.

[HannibalExMachina]

[Ser Elmond Starr]

Ok I know this is completely out of place, but how do you make a poll?
Just so this isn't completely random, let me comment what I think will happen next ep.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Jon Snow's army will get crushed, he will raise his hands like the Night's King and revive his army. Probably not happening but whatever.

[AndariusHaliusScipio]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I think jon cho's army will win, ramsay will flee south to the riverlands where he encounters a band of men led by a mysterious hooded figure unable to speak but fully capable of remembering.

[RedGuard]

"mad at him for marrying her off to Ramsay" is a colossal understatement. And it's not even remotely ridiculous to suggest that she would be very much aware that given the chance, he would snatch the opportunity to better his own position or to make a name for himself.

She's seen him do it multiple times before. I don't see her as thinking explicitly about the political imagery, but the more immediate fear that Baelish will attempt to somehow claim the title, glory, fame, or even just the insinuation that HE took Winterfell proper, not Jon Snow, any possible strand he can pull on to undermine the legitimacy of Jon Snow's (supposed) victory, and thus her victory.

Could imagine it being said like "My lady, the Vale has bled for your father when he joined in Robert's Rebellion. It has bled for you now at the walls of Winterfell. Is it not fair that the Vale take a small part in the restoration of Winterfell to its former glory?" and by that meaning garrisoning Winterfell with House Arryn troops, while he slithers himself into the administrative business of ruling the North


Also, the Lords of the Vale aren't stupid; they know if Jon Snow's army is defeated, Sansa will end up frozen to death or in Ramsay's hands. If their purpose is to protect Sansa Stark, then taking Winterfell is inevitable, unless they think it wise to attack Jon Snow's force, agitating the Northern lords and risking having Sansa flee or die in the process.

except like has been sort of said before; theres two huge problem for Baelish in the wars to come. 1. Nothing he can conquer from here on out will be done with his own forces (as he has none), but with the forces of others, (he may be the defacto ruler of the vale but he has no loyal guard or mercenaries and the lords of the vale have no particular reason to be loyal to him except out of fear) so he is especially weak in that regard. Never rely on someone else to fight your battles because the victory will always be theirs instead of yours. and essentially the Vale is an auxiliary force to LF.

and 2. Sansa knows the truth about who actually killed Lysa Arryn and could use that to depose him at any moment she wishes. They will believe her far more than he even if she admits she lied the first time as she is a known entity and LF is an upstart outsider.