Founding of Israel, justified?

[Sir Pignans]

Jews and Arabs are as much Semitic as you and me are Indo-European ...

Linguistic =/= Ethnicity

The semetic race origniated from a language family. Comprised of canaanites, Phonecians, Hebrews and arabs, these peoples intertwined over the centuries, leading to a distinct genetic make up of people who lived there. These people are called semites.

You are missing the point that Judaism ISN'T a messianic faith which use extensive proselytism , revise your facts.

I would argue that in the early years, after the exodus of Jews from Judea, they did make extensive use of proselytism, and did indeed convert alot of people.

As such, and I shall state this now, I have ignored the nine pages of debate and will be responding to the original thread starter.



The United Nations created the state of Israel by assembling the areas where Jews outnumbered Arabs (incidentally, there never was a Palestinian state, there was a British colony, so, at best, Israel "stole" the land from the British, who "stole" it from Turkey). Palestine was part of a province of the Ottoman Empire (a very Muslim empire). The Jews bought land legally according to the laws of the Ottoman Empire. The Palestinians sold them the land that they bought. All of this happened during the era of the Ottoman Empire (a very Muslim empire). When the Ottoman Empire collapsed, Britain and France split the regions, and Britain obtained Palestine. Britain inherited what the Ottomans had done.

The rumour that Palestinians have been expelled from their lands after the creation of Israel is false. Israel expelled them after it was attacked by the Arabs. Incidentally, the Arabs expelled millions of Jews from their lands too (the so-called "Black September" by King Hussein of Jordan). Moreover, the Arabs refused the state of Palestine that was offered to them by the UN in 1947, and, in any event, leaders of several Palestinian organizations have repeatedly declared that their goal is the destruction of Israel.

The main reason that Palestinians still live in poverty is that the Palestinian Authority originally created a very corrupt regime (supported by Western Governments), that was very unpopular with the Palestinian people and later led to the election of the much less corrupt Hamas (which ironically enough, was opposed by Western Governments).

Israel has no responsibility to return the occupied territories to the Arabs. God only knows why the Western World (particularly Europeans) has suddenly decided that winning countries must withdraw from the territories occupied during a war. Will Germany now be entitled to the territories that Hitler lost during World War II? Should Taiwan take back all of China? Will Europe return to Rome the lands that the Roman Empire lost to the barbarians? And will the Arabs withdraw from the lands they occupied during the Arab wars, from Morocco to Iraq? (Again, mostly) Europeans are outraged that many more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis, as if it was an outrage that more German civilians died in World War II than, say, French or Polish civilians.

This is not to say that one side is blameless. As the adage goes, "Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity". But Israel missed several opportunities too. The whole Palestinian-Israeli conflict is a farce of stupidity, one side trying to outsmart the other one while causing devastation to its own people. Unfortunately, now the two sides have created so many stumbling blocks to any peace negotiations that it will be almost impossible to negotiate anything.

The Palestinians want a state? Fine, but then you must give the people living in Western Sahara (annexed by Morocco), Kurdistan, Casamanche (Senegal), Somaliland, Chechnya, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia a state - anything else is double standards.

Just gonna say I actually disagree with a few things in here, but this isn't on topic, this post seems to be legitamizing the morality of Israels creation, and not the justification of the state itself.

[Menelik_I]

The semetic race origniated from a language family. Comprised of canaanites, Phonecians, Hebrews and arabs, these peoples intertwined over the centuries, leading to a distinct genetic make up of people who lived there. These people are called semites.

THERE IS NOT SEMITIC RACE, SEMITIC IS A LANGUAGE GROUP.

If linguistic is same has etnicity than we are both Indo-Europeans because my grand-parents were portuguese. this is the kind of grouping that makes no sense. The divergence between Hebrew and Arabic probably occured 5000 years ago and the cultural similarities is wide ... so dumping them in one group makes no sense.

Plus the grouping is subjective, see here a form of language grouping.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I would argue that in the early years, after the exodus of Jews from Judea, they did make extensive use of proselytism, and did indeed convert alot of people.

Again you are wrong, Judaism is not a religion based on Proselytism , have you read the old testament ?

What lot of ''people'' are you talking about ? there are only 14 million Jews in the world ... this is completely inconsistent.

[Sir Pignans]

THERE IS NOT SEMITIC RACE, SEMITIC IS A LANGUAGE GROUP.

If linguistic is same has etnicity than we are both Indo-Europeans because my grand-parents were portuguese. this is the kind of grouping that makes no sense. The divergence between Hebrew and Arabic probably occured 5000 years ago and the cultural similarities is wide ... so dumping them in one group makes no sense.

Plus the grouping is subjective, see here a form of language grouping.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic#Ethnicity_and_race: "In Medieval Europe, all Asian peoples were thought of as descendants of Shem. By the nineteenth century, the term Semitic was confined to the ethnic groups who have historically spoken Semitic languages. These peoples were often considered to be a distinct race."

"In contrast, some recent genetic studies found that analysis of the DNA of Semitic-speaking peoples suggests that they have some common ancestry. "

Sounds like they are a distinct race to me.

Again you are wrong, Judaism is not a religion based on Proselytism , have you read the old testament ?

Did I say it was based on Proselytism? No. Doesn't mean wide spread conversion didn't happen. It doesn't have to be based on conversion for converts to convert.

What lot of ''people'' are you talking about ? there are only 14 million Jews in the world ... this is completely inconsistent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inv..._Jewish_People, decent book actually, recieved criticism (Mainly by Israelis, surprise surprise) and approval.

Taking into account the massive persecution of Jews and widespread murder of them , I wouldn't be surprised if that number has been dropping since ancient times, certainly, there should be at least 20 million Jews (Holocaust).

[Menelik_I]

Did I say it was based on Proselytism? No. Doesn't mean wide spread conversion didn't happen. It doesn't have to be based on conversion for converts to convert.

I stopped to read here ... today you particularly wrong my friend or is Professional Contrarian Degree paying dividends

[Sir Pignans]

I stopped to read here ... today you particularly wrong my friend or is Professional Contrarian Degree paying dividends

iirc the religions around the time I was advocating were polythestic, a monetheistic religion that doesn't require sacrfices in an area where sacrifices would be very expensive could, and probably would be very appealing to a polythestic religion, you wouldn't need to try and convert them, they'd convert themselves. You can ignore the rest of it if you want, I've made my point pretty conculsivly, it's up to you to disprove it.

[Menelik_I]

iirc the religions around the time I was advocating were polythestic, a monetheistic religion that doesn't require sacrfices in an area where sacrifices would be very expensive could, and probably would be very appealing to a polythestic religion, you wouldn't need to try and convert them, they'd convert themselves. You can ignore the rest of it if you want, I've made my point pretty conculsivly, it's up to you to disprove it.

I can't stop it is all just plain wrong.

ETA: I gain nothing by correcting you ... why make the world more serious then !

[Sir Pignans]

Yeah whatever.

EDIT: If you read my other link properly you would see it's not been just my view, but one of a prominent tel aviv historian.

[Poet]

Plus the language is Semitic, not the person ... this claim is thoroughly pathetic.

Somebody do something please! Are you out of your mind, semites are called semites because of a group of languages otherwise there is not race which is known as semites, if you want to advocate Jews only you should use the word jews or Israelis or zionists, not semites, because wikipedia is much knowledgable than you and it says that semites are a group of people speaking anyone of the semite languages and arabic is one of them.

[CiviC]

Somebody do something please! Are you out of your mind, semites are called semites because of a group of languages otherwise there is not race which is known as semites, if you want to advocate Jews only you should use the word jews or Israelis or zionists, not semites, because wikipedia is much knowledgable than you and it says that semites are a group of people speaking anyone of the semite languages and arabic is one of them.

Nobody contests that Semites are also Arabs, but the term anti-Semite specifically refers only to Jews, deal with it.

[NotYetRegistered]

(the so-called "Black September" by King Hussein of Jordan)

I thought that was the PLO being expelled?

[abu afak]

No, for the following reasons:

-The native population did not want to cede atleast a part of their homeland to foreign immigrants.

The "native population" of exactly what area?
Arabs had already gotten 77% of the British Mandate in 'Jordan' (in fact given to Non-native Hashemite/Saudi prince Abdullah), and the remaining 23% was to be divided roughly 13/10 for the Jews.
Meaning the Arabs got 87% of the British Mandate.
And half of the Jews 13% was the thought-useless Negev Desert.
Gimmee a break!

Somehow the poor Arabs will have to make do with 99% of the land (and oil) of the Ottoman break up.

-The concept of a state with a prescribed ethnic group(s) (Jews) is racist in all cases but Palestine is home to 8 other ethnic groups besides Jews. It is immoral towards them since they never wanted this, it was imposed on them by these foreign immigrants. They also have institutionalised ethnic discrimination and biased symbolism.

So you are against Han Chinese China, Xenophobic Japanese Japan, Holy-Mecca-only-Islam-Saudi-ARABia, and the other 21 Arab states. States with Crosses/Crescents/Allah-Akhbar on their flags. Correct?
And you are 'for' a Palestinian state which demands No Jews ... but Israel, which is 20% Arab, with freedom of religion and enfranchisement for all, is an exclusive one. :^)
Got it!
This is Clueless and biased.

-The county was created by expelling 80% of the native population, not allowing them to return.

This is completely False.

Resolution 181 of 1947 created BOTH Israel and Palestine and entailed Not one single Arab having to move.
Not one.
A few hundred thousand would have a change of sovereignty in the already Majority Jewish land to be called 'israel'. While most would be in Muslim Arab 'Palestine' which was adjacent to the already created much Larger Arab 'Jordan'. (which was/is 70% Palestinian) (No Jews allowed)
Jews agreed. Arabs Refused.
The ensuing Attack by Many Arab states did however create refugees. Most Asked to get out of the way by the Arabs and to return to claim the spoils/property of the Jews. Oops!
But Displacement was due to.... the Arab-started war.

You and many here know absolutely Nothing, just have biased opinions and make Ridiculous claims.
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[abu afak]

[size=2]
77% of British Mandate was lopped and made Jordan, no Jews allowed.



Jordan is 70% 'Palestinian'.
Leaving the other 23% divided roughly 13-10 for the Jews.

Meaning the Arabs aka Palestinians got 87% of Mandate Palestine.
(the Pink AND Red Areas)

And آ½ of the Jews 13% was the Negev Desert. (lower آ½ the light Blue Area above)
So Jews really got about 6% of the usable land of the Original Mandate..and about 1% of the Ottoman land.
(The arabs got 99% of the land and 100% of the resources.
If you want to keep breaking Arabs down into small sub-groups like the nonexistant-at-the-time 'palestinians', one can always find small injustice.)


AND unlike in the surrounding states... Arabs still live in/make up 20% of Current Israel's population within that land. Had they not rejected the partition/started a war in 1948, They might even be a majority by now.

Also not seen on maps? 2/3 of what became Israel was State Land, passing from the Ottomans, to the British, to the Jews; owned by NO Arab.
This Includes the Half alone of Israel that was/Is the Negev Desert.



Yes, the lower half of that little that red spot/Israel- is the Negev Desert, State Land under the Ottomans, owned by No Arab....and about 15-20% more that was also state land.
And 20% of the population of the upper half of the Red Dot- is Arab.

If you want to see True Injustice in regards the Ottoman Breakup, not a very few people moved a few miles, just Google Kudistan to see who got really screwed.
And yet there's no real cause- not even a mention before the Iraq War by "Human Rightsers".
Kurds a True People, Culture and lingual group; unlike 'Palestinians', Arab Sate # 23, and 'Palestinian' state #2.

I've always found it interesting about anglos who take up the 'palestinian cause'- to the exclusion of all other peoples and far larger injustices as above and Tibet- for another.

[Kitsunegari]

Agreed, people make it into a much bigger deal than it really is. It's really telling that there's so much Muslim and communist "outrage" over the sporadic conflicts in tiny Israel (in which both sides commit atrocities) compared to the Muslim on Muslim slaughter in Kurdistan, Darfur, and elsewhere in recent memory.

[PointOfViewGun]

Resolution 181 of 1947 created BOTH Israel and Palestine and entailed Not one single Arab having to move.

Res 181 did not create anything. It was a piece of document that failed to even reach the level of a recommendation. Given your failure to grasp even the most simplest parts of history I guess rest of your post is as much of a failure as this statement of yours I quoted.

[abu afak]

Res 181 did not create anything. It was a piece of document that failed to even reach the level of a recommendation. Given your failure to grasp even the most simplest parts of history I guess rest of your post is as much of a failure as this statement of yours I quoted.

Just substitute "proposed" for "Created" and then you won't have an excuse Not to deal with the Meat of my post.
Bluff/Technicality called. You're up!.
This should be good!
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[PointOfViewGun]

Just substitute "proposed" for "Created" and then you won't have an excuse Not to deal with the Meat of my post.
Bluff/Technicality called. You're up!.
This should be good!
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Doesn't change the fact that there is nothing right about your post. Your posts refute themselves for a person with some knowledge of history and access to internet pretty decisively. So I won't try much. It wasn't my intention to enable you to revive a dead thread anyway. Keep believing what you want.

[Treize]

Oh look we got all the arguments by our Jewish supremacist friends lined up once again!
Wonderfull! But I have to admit it is getting rather boring after a while so I am only going to do this once...

Palestine? What is Palestine? It is generaly considered to be the land between the mediterranian sea and the river Jordan. The modern definition in the land that was part of the British Mandate for Palestine. This excludes Transjordan.

Now a brief history of the region. Back in the days this land was known as Canaan and it was populated by multiple peoples. The Canaanites included the Hittites, the Filistines (why lived in Gaza, Asgkelon, Ashdod and the region surrounding these places, the Jebusites who lived in and around Jerusalem and probably other peoples. We got Phoenicians in the north and we even got Nabataeans in the South at one point. Now at some point a group of people called the Israelites showed up. Their origin is subject to debate so I can't give you the awnser to where they came from. According to the biblic narrative they massacred the native population and took over the land calling it Israel. But we are sure about the fact that non-Israelites continued to live their as if I remember correctly the Jebusites are named in biblic stories just like the Hittites, I believe King David had a Hittite general in his service at one point.

We fast forward to the Romans who conquered the land, after the Assyrians and Persians had before. At this point Roman settlers would arrive also. And at some point there was this 'Jewish exile' that people constantly talk about. But the fact is that there is no evidence for this. Now what happened that the Romans killed 100000's of Jews/Israelites/Hebrews/you name it, and not 16 million as the Tenach tells us, and they banned them from Jerusalem but there was no real exile. Our friend Bibi seems to believe that an inscription on a Roman victory arch is the proof of this but that image depicts Romans soldiers walking around with a menora looted from the Jews. And a couple of decades later the Jews of Palestine would write some important religious text of which I forgot the name but it is proof that there were still Jews there. So no exile, Jews stayed in Palestine.

So where do all those Jews around the world come from? Well, Judaism was not always a non-converting religion. They are said to have violently converted non-Jewish Cananites during the times of the Maccabeans and Judaism also became a known religion in Jemen, Mesopotania and North-Africa. Prehaps a couple of Jews settled here but the most logical explaination is that most of it was because of merchants and trade, not by large scale settlement. North-African Jews these days decend from berbers, Sefardic Jews are berbers by origin also. We know a little less about the Ashkenazim but they are of Eastern-European origin, a prominent heory is that they are decendants of the Khazars, who in part converted to Judaism at one point. So these people are not, or atleast not very much at all, related to the Israelites/Hebrews of Palestine, AKA the Jewish People.

The Jews who stayed, their revolts against Byzantine rule are even more evidence they stayed instead of being exiled, converted to Islam en masse when the Arabs conquered Palestine. The reason for this was in the first place financial, Muslims had to pay less tax. Arab settlement occured in Palestine just as it occured in other countries that are considered Arabic today. But this was in reality very limited, armies and their general intermarried with native women. Hench most 'Arabs' today are not really Arab in the ethnic sense.

So at the dawn of the 20th century Palestinians are a mixture of Canaanites, Israelites, Romans, Persians, Assyrians, some European crusader settlers, Arabs and some more recent immigranst from the surrounding countries.

This land also still had a native jewish community. Many of whom were indeed natives but also a significant part were European Jews who settled in Jerusalem for religious reasons. Even in 1860, 20 years before the First Aliyah, orthodox Jews immigranted to Palestine.

In Europe, these decendants of berber and eastern-europeans who followed Judaism became the tarhet of discrimination. Some saw a solution to this problem in communism, socialism, anarchism or other leftish idealogies. Others didn't and this was the birth of 'Jewish-Nationalism'. These Jews, believing they are the direct decendants of the Old Jews, claimed to be a nation and as such had a right of self determination, according to themselves ofcourse. Then we proceed to see the World Zionist Conference in Basel, Mr. Hertzl who wrote his book and in 1882 we had our very first Aliyah! About 15000 Russians and also Jemenite Jews settled down in what was Ottoman Palestine.

[Treize]

These first zionists are described as classic colonialists, bent on exploiting the natives as a cheap workforce for their own gain. This mentality would change however... The second aliyah was around 1906, this one included Ben Gurion who would later be expelled by the Ottomans, and others would follow. During WW1 the British took over Palestine. Now things like the Balfour Declaration can be disregarded as they are not legally binding and as such, and for other reasons, not relevant.

During the interbellum more Jews would settle Palestine, anti-semitism was rampant in Europe and this was a great push factor for them. During and after WW2 immigration would be very high.
Now the history of the mandate, not doubt interesting, is quite well known and has been writen down in other threads already so I see no need to make this text even longer.

So what do we got here? We got a population that has lived in the land for thousands of years, this population includes the Palestinian-'Arabs' but this also includes Druze people, Armenians who lived there for thousands of years as well, recent Circassian immigrants feeling the violence in the Caucasus, the Bedouins, some other small groups and indeed the native Jewish population including the well integrated, more recently immigrated Ashkenazim and Sefardim of the Old Yishuv.

On the other hand we have Europeans and Jemenites of whom a tiny part lived there since 1882, a tiny part since 1906, a larger part who lived there since the interbellum and a large part who lived there since 1940 or later. So there people can be called recent immigrants. What makes them different from other recent immigrants such as some Jews from the Old Yishuv, the Circassians and some Arabs from neighbouring countries is that they came to Palestine with the sole purpose of creating a 'Jewish State'. Most people seem to belive this means a Judaic state, a state with Judaism as its religion. But this is false, infact most wanted a secular state. It had to be a state for 'The Jewish People'. Not for the inhabitants of the land, Jewish or not, no it had to be a 'Jewish State'. Ofcourse the non-Jews did not like the idea of having foreigners creating a state that was 'Jewish' by law, they made this very clear. This was a very rational thing even though they are often blamed for it. Why would they, the non-Jewish natives, want their land to become a 'Jewish State'? Hell, even the native Jews did not want a Jewish State. But the zionist did not give a damn about the opinion of the natives, they carried on with their plans. They created militias, government structures, their own social services of all kinds and what not. In 1947/48 a civil war broke out, finally. Now this was not really a civil was as one party was heavily armed and would later win a war against a number of Arab states while the other side did not really have an effective military organisation. These zionist militias they commited massacres and they forced Palestinians to leave their villages in some cases. In most cases the terror from massacres such as Deir Jassin caused people to flee as they did not wanted to be killed. In Haifa for example the zionists shelled the market, a gathering point for civilan evacuees, with mortars. Before, before the surrounding Arab states came out with their declaration and attacked the zionists 200000 Palestinians had sought refuge in these states, either because the fled or where forced to flee. The Arab states were more or less forced to go to war by their population because of this. They basically knew it would be a futile attempt and the deal between newborn Israel and Transjordan sealed their fate but they tried regardless. In the end after the war somewhere between 650.000 or 800.000 Palestinians were displaced. Many found refuge in the Gaza Strip, the West-Bank, Jordan or Lebanon. This was 80% of the native population of what was to become Israel. And they were not allowed to return after the war to this very day because it has to be a 'Jewish State' disregarding international law in the process. Not a state for all inhabitants, no, a 'Jewish State', even if that means disregarding international law in the process.

The idea of such a 'Jewish State' is ofcourse rediculous because:
A. The Jewish People don't exist anymore. They closest decendants are ironically the Palestinans.
B. These 'Jews' would have been, without large scale ethnic cleansing, a minority of about 33% just like they were before the war.
C. The concept in itself is rather wrong, not just given the fact that it is a very multiethnic region. Can we imaging an Anglo-Saxon by law USA? Nope. Can we imaging a White by law South-Africa? Nope, not anymore. Would we except a Germanic (as in race) by law Germany? No we wouldn't. So how is it then that we accept a Jewish Palestine (Israel)??? Holocaust Guilt Sydrom? Really? No? I don't know the exact awnser...

One more small thing, the UN partition plan was not approved by the security council and as such had not legal effect whatsoever. Not that the UN had the moral right to give away one peoples land to foreign supremacists anyway but nevermind. Infact the nations of the world, led by the Americans of all people, wanted to have a new UN mandate/trusteeship. But these negotiations became redundant when the zionists unilaterally delared the state of Israel into existance. And after the Siamese decided not to show up for some unknown reason the new state was accepted into the UN by a 1 vote majority. Don't get me wrong I can understand institutionalised supremacy of one group back in the 40's but in 2011?

I think I got most of it...

I might awnser some questions but I am kind of sick and tired of debating Jewish supremacist and their rightwing groupies. And I am not going to correct spelling/grammar.

[lordyu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947-19...tory_Palestine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing..._Palestine_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_...stinian_exodus

Try some balance

[Treize]

Nope, zionists were and still are evil sicko's who think they can have a Jewish apartheid state in someone elses land. They mad.

Immigrants must adapt to their homeland or gtfo. Ethnic cleansing and creating institutional Jewish supremacism is stupid. The natives have the right to defend themselves against such an alien treat.

If immigrants came to my country with the sole purpose of dispossessing me and creating a by law 'Jewish/Arab/Tuvaluan State' I would also shoot them and dump their bodies in the North Sea. That's a nobrainer and a perfectly reasonable thing to do for anyone who is remotely patriotic.