Alternative Clan Colours - update to HERO EDITION released! Noif's submod still available

[raphaell666]

Demokritos, what would you say about a banner like this for Tokugawa? The reason I ask is because I absolutely hate the fact that when you zoom out the units adquire the main color of their banner, therefore with Tokugawa's white banner when you zoom out the units turn white, and it looks really weird considering upclose the units are almost totally black.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Ftmch]

Thanks for the feedback, mate.
I think it's possible to recolour the daimyos, but you would have to edit the individual texture files for them and this requires other tools (more money) and more knowledge than I currently possess. I may acquire those things later, but right now, I'm afraid such a project is low on the priority list.

Actually, I think their colour is decided in some db-file. At least the daimyos/generals in the campaign, since retexturing the ones that are used in custom battles have no effect on the campaign ones. I have no idea which db it is though, haha.

[leary]

When doing quick screens Demokritos it wouldn't hurt to face your troops toward the sun so we can get a well lit frontal shot of them.

Not sure about the Tokugawa for that reason. As for the Date, I personally think they're just about perfect right now. Naturally they need that awesome new flag, but otherwise I really dig the current shades of blue on them. I still wouldn't mind seeing a frontal shot of the new ones though.

[Roslolian]

I think the long-range color thing is overemphasized as a problem, except insofar as it leads to a generalization of troops. In other words, I personally don't care unless every army becomes a white blob at long distances. Personally, I zoom in a lot, so it doesn't bother me too much.

[Demokritos]

Hello, Impressive!! Well is this mod work with less glossy mod and AUM-SHO ??
Thnx

Yes, I think so.

Yes, compatible with AUM and this mod have a less gloss.

You mean AUM has less glossy units mod included? Because my mod does not, but I'm only using LGU for the screenshots presenting my mod.

Stay with the "historical" colors on your first post picture, who wants personal color??
Example=> I want takeda blue...

I don't quite follow you here, Brips. Which pic in my OP are you referring to? The first under the Date-shi heading that shows one of my sources for the Date and which depicts predominantly white banners for them (but also some others)? Or do you mean the pic on D. Danborg's illustration of clan colours, which also depicts a white flag for the Date?

The problem regarding historical correctness is that the armies could have one type of flags for the proper banners, i.e. the standards known as noboris (which the standard bearers in this game carries) or uma-jirushis, and then a different type for the small ones on the backs of the soldiers we know as sashimonos. And then different daimyos of a given clan had their own kind of banners for their army. Generally speaking, only the type of mon (clan crest) is the critical sign of identification in this period, not the colour of the mon or the colour of the background on which it was printed. And yet it was not always the case that the mon were shown on the flags. Those are historical facts.

So the black date mon on white background as nobori seems only correct for Date Masamune, not his father or son. But Masamune also used his father's type of nobori, and introduced new ones for a campaign in Korea, golden discs on blue backgrounds. The black mon on white background as sashimono seems equally reserved for Masamune, but he had other types of sashmonos as well, like the mon in white on black or blue backgrounds. So if we base our choice on what Masamune alone used, then the black mon on white background for both nobori and sashimono seems the best alternative, but the other options are not totally wrong, either. So I'm thinking of going the same way with the banners like I did for the units: having one standard version and one optional for personal tweaks. Then everyone could pick what they want.

For this really good mod:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=446187&page=2
How to do to have it integrated in banners mod and variety mod?

Well, it seems good Mr forcerecon has edited the faction_banners file, too, and that means you have only one option: edit that file yourself so as to combine what you want in banners from forcerecon's work and my work. If you only want that extra banner, all you need to do is add the db file for it, using PFM, to my banner mod. In the Mod Workshop, there's a tutorial how to add an extra standard banner which you can consult, made by Black Fox, I think. With "variety mod" I presume you refer to The Hedge Knight's Unit Variety Mod and I don't know in which way forcerecon uses the same files as the UVM, but you probably need to proceed in the same way there as with the banners question. Work with PFM.

Demokritos, what would you say about a banner like this for Tokugawa? The reason I ask is because I absolutely hate the fact that when you zoom out the units adquire the main color of their banner, therefore with Tokugawa's white banner when you zoom out the units turn white, and it looks really weird considering upclose the units are almost totally black.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Yes, those white or bright banners have a weird effect on the appearance of the army from a distance. Theoretically, few clans would object to the idea of having their mon in white or bright colour on black or dark background, because it was the mon that identified the clan, not any colour. But many clans had a certain tradition in colours for their banners. We should remain true to that tradition as much as possible, I think. In the case of the Tokugawa, I've seen flags with their mon in yellow on white background, light blue on white background, and black on yellow or white background, and Japanese characters citing something in black on white background or gold on red background. But the most popular may have been the variant which vanilla uses. I think I'll stick to that, but if you want I can tell you how to edit my banners mod so that you get that yellow on black for the Tokugawa. The values for black I have already, so if you settle for the current hue of yellow/gold on the mon, you're ready to go: hex values 1F1F1F, or RGB values 31-31-31. If you use the RGB values with PFM, see instructions how to apply them in post #3 (in this case, you only need to look at the three columns named R2, G2 and B2 for Tokugawa).

Actually, I think their colour is decided in some db-file. At least the daimyos/generals in the campaign, since retexturing the ones that are used in custom battles have no effect on the campaign ones. I have no idea which db it is though, haha.

Really? I haven't seen a db file which could state individual colours for the daimyos/general. Gotta check that out...

Returning after a closer look. Found something: "agent_uniform_colours"! Colours for fifty generals are given there but only five daimyos. Fortunately including the Uesugi daimyo. That seems to mean a change here will affect all Uesugi daimyos, not just Uesugi Kenshin. I must confess I haven't played the game long enough to notice if the daimyo who succeeds another is looking the same as the one before him. I've seen Uesugi Kenshin wearing some kind of grey headcloth. You want that thing white, Wundwolf? I'll see what I can do...

When doing quick screens Demokritos it wouldn't hurt to face your troops toward the sun so we can get a well lit frontal shot of them.

Not sure about the Tokugawa for that reason. As for the Date, I personally think they're just about perfect right now. Naturally they need that awesome new flag, but otherwise I really dig the current shades of blue on them. I still wouldn't mind seeing a frontal shot of the new ones though.

OK, I'll try to take better screenshots for the from now on (although I like to save some nice surprises to those who actually use my mod).

I think the long-range color thing is overemphasized as a problem, except insofar as it leads to a generalization of troops. In other words, I personally don't care unless every army becomes a white blob at long distances. Personally, I zoom in a lot, so it doesn't bother me too much.

I'm not bothered too much, either, for the very same reason. But when the colours of the banners also affect the uniforms when looking at them from up close, which they do in some cases, then I wish for a change.

[Ftmch]

Returning after a closer look. Found something: "agent_uniform_colours"! Colours for fifty generals are given there but only five daimyos. Fortunately including the Uesugi daimyo. That seems to mean a change here will affect all Uesugi daimyos, not just Uesugi Kenshin. I must confess I haven't played the game long enough to notice if the daimyo who succeeds another is looking the same as the one before him. I've seen Uesugi Kenshin wearing some kind of grey headcloth. You want that thing white, Wundwolf? I'll see what I can do...

That's probably it! good find! I remember reading somewhere that the daimyo always uses the same model, in other words, when the heir becomes the daimyo, he uses that model, I think, at least I remember someone complaining about it, haha!

[raphaell666]

Yes, those white or bright banners have a weird effect on the appearance of the army from a distance. Theoretically, few clans would object to the idea of having their mon in white or bright colour on black or dark background, because it was the mon that identified the clan, not any colour. But many clans had a certain tradition in colours for their banners. We should remain true to that tradition as much as possible, I think. In the case of the Tokugawa, I've seen flags with their mon in yellow on white background, light blue on white background, and black on yellow or white background, and Japanese characters citing something in black on white background or gold on red background. But the most popular may have been the variant which vanilla uses. I think I'll stick to that, but if you want I can tell you how to edit my banners mod so that you get that yellow on black for the Tokugawa. The values for black I have already, so if you settle for the current hue of yellow/gold on the mon, you're ready to go: hex values 1F1F1F, or RGB values 31-31-31. If you use the RGB values with PFM, see instructions how to apply them in post #3 (in this case, you only need to look at the three columns named R2, G2 and B2 for Tokugawa).

Which version of the PFM are you currently using? I seem to be unable to edit faction_banners through the PFM, it simply says it's not supported. Anyways, I opened the faction_banners file and looked for Tokugawa in it, but I'm unsure on what I should change for 1F 1F 1F, I'd love some help as I'm failing to figure it out by myself. This is a screenshot of the part where Tokugawa is in faction_banners (if I'm not doing something wrong), I would really appreciate it if you could tell me where exactly I should put the 1F 1F 1F.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Thanks a lot for your help and the fast and excellent reply by the way, if I learn how to change the banner into colors that don't look so weird at distance then this mod will be perfect for me. Excellent work so far.

[forcerecon569]

Yes, I think so.





Well, it seems good Mr forcerecon has edited the faction_banners file, too, and that means you have only one option: edit that file yourself so as to combine what you want in banners from forcerecon's work and my work. If you only want that extra banner, all you need to do is add the db file for it, using PFM, to my banner mod. In the Mod Workshop, there's a tutorial how to add an extra standard banner which you can consult, made by Black Fox, I think. With "variety mod" I presume you refer to The Hedge Knight's Unit Variety Mod and I don't know in which way forcerecon uses the same files as the UVM, but you probably need to proceed in the same way there as with the banners question. Work with PFM.

accualy i have a version with your mod in it i have to wait to release because i edited radious file by accident so i have ask what he changes because my patch file and data wont open i even fixed jesus flag bearer

[Brips]

Ok, you are well informed
Then just take the primary color of the clan and banner leader at the date of the beginning campaign

[Demokritos]

That's probably it! good find! I remember reading somewhere that the daimyo always uses the same model, in other words, when the heir becomes the daimyo, he uses that model, I think, at least I remember someone complaining about it, haha!

I've got bad news. I tried to edit that file but nothing seems to happen with the model in campaign mode. Something else must be needed and I don't know what it is.

Still, I learned something useful. For the same reason I thought it necessary to go retexturing for any change to be made in the appearance of the daimyos, I thought my clan recolourings would not affect the daimyos. But now I know that they do. So with silver-coloured armor details for the Uesugi, which makes for silver-coloured vests for the officers, their daimyo appears a pretty bleak figure. It seems that in order for his headcloth to look white one would need to make the armor for all units white. Unless one could make the settings in the agent_uniforms_settings file work and override those in the faction_uniform_colours file somehow.

Which version of the PFM are you currently using? I seem to be unable to edit faction_banners through the PFM, it simply says it's not supported.

I'm using PFM 1.6.5, but you need to download the file which Kurisu Paifuaa submitted in post #55 of this thread. Sorry, forgot about that.

Anyways, I opened the faction_banners file and looked for Tokugawa in it, but I'm unsure on what I should change for 1F 1F 1F, I'd love some help as I'm failing to figure it out by myself. This is a screenshot of the part where Tokugawa is in faction_banners (if I'm not doing something wrong), I would really appreciate it if you could tell me where exactly I should put the 1F 1F 1F.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Thanks a lot for your help and the fast and excellent reply by the way, if I learn how to change the banner into colors that don't look so weird at distance then this mod will be perfect for me. Excellent work so far.

Ok, if we go hex, we look for the first instance of the faction name spelled with dots in between the letters (like "t.o.k.u.g.a.w.a.") on the right side of the hex code editor. Each sign here corresponds to one of the pairs of digits to the left. You do the actual editing with those pairs of digits; the info to the right only tells you where you can find the colours for a given faction. Now, a hex code has six digits, which actually is three pairs of digits put together, one of the pairs corresponding to the R-value (red) in a RGB code, the other to the G-value (green) and the third to the B-value (blue). So we need to look for three pairs of digits in the area to the left. But these three pairs of digits are not stated in a row here. As you can see, after the first coded instance of "t.o.k.u.g.a.w.a." comes the figure "16". That is the first pair of digits in a hex code written in a peculiar way here. After "16" comes three pairs of zeros, then "8F", followed by another three pairs of zeros, and then "DC" etc. The important info is always found in a certain pattern like this...

NNNNNNNNH---H---H--- etc

...with each N standing for a letter plus dot in the code for the faction name, each H for a pair of hex code digits and each dash (-) for a pair of insignificant digits. So if you find a pair of zeros at an "H-position" like this, those zeros are not unimportant (like zeros in "dash-positions"), they're part of a hex code.

In our Tokugawa case, this makes the 16-8F-DC sequence the first actual hex code, and the next is E6-E6-E6. The first such sequence after the code for the clan name gives the colour for the mon, the second for the background. E6E6E6 is the hex code for almost pure white. So you need to exchange each instance of "E6" with an "1F" in order to have written the hex code for a black (actually - so as not to get a black hole - very dark grey) background there. Save your changes. Now you can exit the hex editor and use the PFM to pack the files into a working mod again.

If you need to change the colour for the ties on the banner one day it is stated after the second instance of the code for "t.o.k.u.g.a.w.a.". In this case, the hex code for it begins with a "03" followed by "A3" and "FF". It's pretty simple once you get the hang of it. Note, however, that in this banners file the RGB values are not hex coded in the normal R-G-B order (like in the uniforms file) but in the reverse order. So if you want to change the background of a banner to cobalt blue, for instance, the hex code of which is 3D59AB, you need to enter those digits in the AB593D order.

Now good luck with your colour tweak!

accualy i have a version with your mod in it i have to wait to release because i edited radious file by accident so i have ask what he changes because my patch file and data wont open i even fixed jesus flag bearer

Well, you seem to have modded my mod quite a bit so I don't know what's left of it. If you don't use my mod as a whole, you should not give me the whole credit for it, but in your presentation of your work state something like "My colour tweak based on Demokritos' ACC 12b Mod" or something. Anyhow, maybe you can help Brips with his inquiry to combine these mods of ours?

Ok, you are well informed
Then just take the primary color of the clan and banner leader at the date of the beginning campaign

We'll see what I end up doing. Haven't checked which daimyo they have in the beginning. A good rule would be to choose the banners of the most important daimyo which a given clan had during this Sengoku period, and this someone may not be in charge from the start of the game. In any case, I will suggest alternatives to my standard editions for people who want to have it differently and are prepared to tweak my mod accordingly. So all desires are fulfilled, if the desires are strong enough (to do a little work on their own).

[Brips]

We'll see what I end up doing. Haven't checked which daimyo they have in the beginning. A good rule would be to choose the banners of the most important daimyo which a given clan had during this Sengoku period, and this someone may not be in charge from the start of the game. In any case, I will suggest alternatives to my standard editions for people who want to have it differently and are prepared to tweak my mod accordingly. So all desires are fulfilled, if the desires are strong enough (to do a little work on their own).

Perfect, but put your main mod color with the banner+clan color of the first Daiymo at 1545 (+-historical)
And like you said, after you put links/DL for optional colors, (in fact that's my point of view but I think it's the more logical).

[raphaell666]

Demokritos, just coming back to say it worked correctly.Thanks a lot dude, you have explained perfectly.

By the way, just as a contribution as I saw you guys talking about changing Uesugi Kenshin's hood color, I've always seen him in books and etc as being represented wearing a white monk hood, the black hood in-game does indeed not look quite right.

[Demokritos]

@Raphael - glad to hear that you got your idea for Tokugawa working for you. I wouldn't mind seeing a pic of how that came out on the battlefield.

I'm currently working on version 24d of ACC. Urakami is already finished and Otomo, Ouchi and Satomi nearly so. Four other clans are under development. And I have a nice surprise for you...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Yes, it seems like I've figured out how to change the mons on the banners. So now not only the Useugi could fly their proper clan banner on the battlefield (red mon on blue background), but also the rest of the clans, as long as the proper mons are included in the game.

But after this 24d version, I'm short on info about the historical appearance of the remaining clans regarding special characteristics. This concerns the following clans:

Anekagoji
Asano*
Ashina
Bessho
(Buddhist rebels)
(Christian rebels)
(European traders - why do they have the mon of the Asai clan on their flags?)
Hatakeyama
Hatano
Honma
Ikko-ikki
Ito*
Jinbo
Kikkawa*
Kiso
(Kitabatake - this faction may have a connection to the Kato clan and I have some material for the latter)
Kobayakawa*
Kono
Matsuda
Murakami*
Ogigayatsu
Sagara
Saito
Satake*
Shoni
Sogo
Takaoka
Tsutsui*
Ukita*
Utsunomiya
Yamana
Yamanouchi*

So, guys, if you know something about them or where to acquire such data about them, I'd appreciate any help in the matter. Anything descriptive could do, whether a written statement in a book, a display of miniature figures, or a pic from an old painting etc. Otherwise I'll be forced to use my knowledge of how ashigarus, samurais or daimyos of certain other clans or in general looked in this period to arbitrary assign some of those designs to our remaining clans. This would not be totally wrong, however, given the fact that the principal difference between the armies here was the mon they carried on their banners. But it would be a bit unfortunate in cases where they were known to favour certain colours on their uniforms or banners. Clans for which I have some info in the types of banners they carried have been marked with an asterisk (*) on the list above, so we don't need to go looking for those.

[Master Necromancer]

Sorry I didn't find all of them.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Anekagoji

Asano*:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Black and Gold:

Ashina:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Black on gold:

Bessho
(Buddhist rebels)
(Christian rebels):

(These two you can make up. )

(European traders - why do they have the mon of the Asai clan on their flags?)


Hatakeyama
Hatano
Honma
Ikko-ikki
Ito*:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

White on black; white on blue:

Jinbo
Kikkawa*:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

White on red:

Kiso
(Kitabatake - this faction may have a connection to the Kato clan and I have some material for the latter):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Kato: White on black:

Kobayakawa*:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Red on teal:

Kono
Matsuda:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Black on red:

Murakami*:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Red on white; white on red:

Ogigayatsu

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

White on black:

Sagara
Saito
Satake*:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Red on white; yellow on blue:

Shoni:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I don't know this one puzzles me:

Sogo
Takaoka
Tsutsui*
Ukita*:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Red on blue; white on blue:

Utsunomiya
Yamana
Yamanouchi*:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Black and white:

[Demokritos]

Thanks for your input, MN! As I said at the end of my post, clans marked with an asterisk I already had info regarding their banners and it was about the same as yours. But for Asano, Ashina, and Ogigayatsu I had none, so that was a good contribution. Thank you for that, mate!

What about "uniforms" for any of those?

Edit: Just remembered a piece of info regarding Ogigayatsu banners, it's supposed to be the same as that for the Uesugi, only in the reverse colours.

[forcerecon569]

Forcerecon, I must thank you for drawing my attention to the similarities between my current Date and Tokugawa, because this set me looking for new ways to portray these guys - and for both I've hit promising tracks in their own right, too! What do you think of the Tokugawa here, keeping the dark brown armor and dark blue details on the armor from Danborg's plate, but introducing light blue clothing, which they apparently were also associated with in history...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Tokugawa (under Ieyasu) were the one clan who finally unified Japan after all, and one kind of expects such a clan to look a bit special. They do here. Will try other shades of light blue before deciding. But I like this idea very much.

For the Date, who were known to wear more like medium blue clothing, I'm working on the idea to allow for such clothing if the details on the armor are made darker so that the overall rather dark impression can be maintained this way. Here's another example how that work comes along (with changes to the blue in the details and clothing shown in post #111 earlier)...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Will keep the new customized indigo blue for the details on the armor, but work a little more on the clothing. There are still similarities with this version of the Date and the Tokugawa above, but in lesser degree than before, I think. Some similarities between the armies of the different clans in this period are just truthful to history anyway.

nice i see the differnce and lol the date look almost exactly like mine my blue is a little darker

[Raimeken]

I know the 'Bi' mon for the Uesugi is slightly inaccurate due to it being the personal standard of Kenshin himself...I find it weird to have an Uesugi without that mon, just saying.

[Demokritos]

I know the 'Bi' mon for the Uesugi is slightly inaccurate due to it being the personal standard of Kenshin himself...I find it weird to have an Uesugi without that mon, just saying.

It seems I was mistaken in believing that the proper clan banner for the Uesugi is their mon in red on blue background. For the proper standards called noboris, it's supposed to be a red sun on rather dark blue background (with more than one daimyo) or their mon in black on white background. For the flags on the soldiers' back we know as sashimonos the clan mon appear to have been used more often, either in white on rather dark blue background (with more than one daimyo) or in black on white background. We can get any of these variants in game now. The red sun on dark blue may the most appropriate symbol of the Uesugi family in the field (the nobori being the most important banner as far as clan marks go, if I have understood things correctly) and I'm leaning towards that alternative.

Thoughts?

[Master Necromancer]

Thanks for your input, MN! As I said at the end of my post, clans marked with an asterisk I already had info regarding their banners and it was about the same as yours. But for Asano, Ashina, and Ogigayatsu I had none, so that was a good contribution. Thank you for that, mate!

What about "uniforms" for any of those?

Edit: Just remembered a piece of info regarding Ogigayatsu banners, it's supposed to be the same as that for the Uesugi, only in the reverse colours.

Sorry but couldn't find anything about uniforms, Japanese men in general didn't have special armor colors except for the feudal family members and those have been passed down in generations like swords and where more like family relics than items that where used because in Japan the tradition of ancestor worshiping was very popular.

But in gaming purposes and in trying to bring the game closer to history and make it full with more variety you should use the colors from the banners but only toned down and realistic IMHO.

But just a side note for the Oda. In the 1500s the Oda clan warriors where exploding with colors from some reason. Often mixing such horrible colors as purple and yellow. Oda Nobunaga had basically (amongst others) a rainbow colored armor, but used black and purple most of the times. So if you make them that way they will be ugly but I would download because of the historical feel.

And one more suggestion, could you consider teaming up with Ftmch on doing this mod. Your mod is closer to history but he has some MAD skills with retexturing and recoloring S2TW units. So you two would surely make a dream team that would make an ultimate alternative color mod!!!

[leary]

But just a side note for the Oda. In the 1500s the Oda clan warriors where exploding with colors from some reason. Often mixing such horrible colors as purple and yellow. Oda Nobunaga had basically (amongst others) a rainbow colored armor, but used black and purple most of the times. So if you make them that way they will be ugly but I would download because of the historical feel.

Purple and yellow is wretched, but black and purple is one of the all-time great color combos. I'd support it.

As for the Uesugi, I also have a preference to Kenshin's "Bi" mon. It's not quite historical, but it's definitely the most identifiable all of all the possible Uesugi mons. I'd have to see it to actually judge, but the sun option for the mon sounds pretty dull stylistically.