Question About Ancient Macedonia

[Bolwerger]

I got one question about ancient Macedonians: Was they Greeks or not ?

The Macedonians in Ancient times were an ethnic group of Indo-European origin, distinct from the ancient Greeks and the other neighbors (Illirians and Trakians). It is a common knowledge that the classical Greek authors did not recognize the Macedonians as fellow countrymen, calling them barbarians (non-Hellenes):

• "...not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent Slave."

The Hellenes considered Macedonian domination in the Greek states as an alien rule, imported from outside by the members of other tribes, the, as Plutarchus says, allophyloi (Plutarchus, Vita Arati, 16). In his eighth book, Herodotus wrote about the ethnic affiliation of the Macedonian royal line and emphasized the Spartan thesis about Alexander I as a Macedonian. So, it was in interest of the Hellenes not to believe the Persian emissary, Alexander the Macedonian:

• "Don't let the Alexander the Macedonian persuade you, he who sweetens the message of the Macedonians [the Persian Commander]. He has to do so since the tyrant cooperates with the tyrant."

Herodotus, The Histories VIII, 142.
The ethnic distinction between the Macedonians and the Hellenes is emphasized by other authors as well. Namely, Alexander III the Great, as Plutarchus wrote, told his soldiers:

• "For the Macedonians, I will conquer the world...but not for the Hellenes."

Plutarchus, Alexander, 47
It is very interesting and important to know according to what source and on what grounds, this very clearly stated commitment of the Macedonian king was made. Very often this statement is overturned by the Historians and his conquest is interpreted as an action in favor of the Hellenes and as an alleged cause of their uniting. The facts are clear, and do not allow any further interpretation.
However, the modern Greeks offer the idea that the Macedonians were just another Hellenic tribe. Proofs offered by the Greek side include sources such as Herodotus and Thukydides:

• "..the Hellenic nation.. settled about Pindos under the name Makedon."

Herodotus, The Histories 1.56

• "..all these (groups).. belong to the Dorian and Macedonian nation (and) had emigrated last from Erineus and Pindos and Dryopis."

Herodotus, The Histories 8.43

• "Now that the men of this family are Greeks, sprung from Perdiccas, as they themselves affirm, is a thing which I can declare on my own knowledge, and which I will hereafter make plainly evident. That they are so has been already adjudged by those who manage the Pan-Hellenic contest at Olympia"

Herodotus, The Histories 5.22

• "Hereupon Pausanias...addressed the generals, and said, - 'Since the battle is to come with tomorrow's dawn, it were well that you Athenians should stand opposed to the Persians and we Spartans to the Boeotians and the other Greeks;..."

Herodotus, The Histories 9.46

• "Next to the Persians he placed the Medes, facing the Corinthians, Potideans, Orchomenians, and Sicyonians; then the Bactrians, facing the Epidaurians, Troezinians, Lepreats, Tirynthians, Myceneans, and Phliasians; after them the Indians, facing the Hermionians, Eretrians, Styreans, and Chalcidians; then the Sacans, facing the Ambraciots, Anactorians, Leucadians, Paleans, and Eginetans; last of all, facing the Athenians, the Plateans, and the Megarians, he placed the troops of the Boeotians, Locrians, Malians, and Thessalians, and also the thousand Phocians.. Besides those mentioned above, Mardonius likewise arrayed against the Athenians the Macedonians and the tribes dwelling about Thessaly"

Herodotus, The Histories 9.31

• "`Alexander, I demand you remember Greece, for the sake of which you embarked on this expedition, with the intention to add Asia to Greece...so that by the Hellenes and Macedonians you are treated as a man in the way fitted for Hellenes to honor."

Arrian, Anabasis 4.11.7 - 12.1
Let's look at part of that quote: ...so that by the Hellenes and Macedonians you are treated as a man in the way fitted for Hellenes to honor...First, Arrian says "Macedonians and Hellenes". If Hellenes and Macedonians were the same, then this is the same as saying Californians and Americans. What are Californians, non - Americans??? No, they are Americans, therefore this phrase is wrong. If Arrian used and, then they are not the same, otherwise if he's such a great historical source he shouldn't make such big grammatical mistakes. It is not a mistake, but Arrian is saying that the Macedonians were not Hellenes!

[Juggernaut]

If you already have your own conclusion, why are you asking a question?

[Hand of Nergal]

I think the answer depends almost as much on one persons opinion as anything else. In my 'Cleopatra was not Egyptian' thread I made the case that Cleopatra was actually a Macedonian, a descendant of Ptolemy, one of Alexander III's generals. I also said that ancient Macedonians were not Greek, and got heavily criticized for it, but I agree with everything you brought up and was heavily influenced by the writings of the ancients.
The Greeks were seperated in different city-states prior to Macedonian rule. Prior to the Macedonians there was not exactly a pan-hellenistic ideal, it was something that Alexander III came up with because after years of influenec from Greek culture they more or less adopted Greek culture. They prayed to Greek gods and so on and Alexander visited Athens once and was probably so inspired by it that his love of Greek culture probably enhance a hundredfold, there his dream of a pan-hellenistic world took firm root. I do not think that they were Greek, ethnically or otherwise, their geography was different, so on. After ythe years, though, the lines of Greek and Macedonian culture have probably blended so much that the question is all academic.

[John I Tzimisces]

So what if they weren't Greek in 300 BC?
They certainly were by 5-600 AD, and now their descendants are Greeks and Slavs.
And even then, in 300 BC, they sure were trying hard enough to be Greek.
It's also kinda impossible to say Macedonians were somehow related to Illyrians and Thracians...because knowledge of all three languages is severely limited...

[Faramir D'Andunie]

Like there aren't enough threads arguing that, oh well we can always use another flame war. It will eventually turn into one.

Just one reccomendation. I see you try to use modern prespective on what a nation is, best to avoid it.

And do not forget that there is a political difference,and Alexander the Great addressed to Hellenes and Macedonians differently. Macedonians are his subjects the rest of the Greeks his allies.

Anyway, I don't have time to write a detailed post for this debate right now, will do so when back later.

*edit*

A quick question before I am off. If Macedonians in antiquity were not considered as Hellenes why did they accept them in the Olympic Games? Back when they were a backwater kingdom not when they dominated Greece.
The games were a source of great status back then, and considering it was a religious celebration as well accepting non greeks would be quite an offence.

[Xavier Dragnesi]

I don't think the Greeks thought that the Macedonians were as good as they were, not as 'civilised', to be acknowledged as Greeks. Cos apparently the Macedonians had quite a few orgy-like parties and hadn't really proved themselves against the Greeks in a military sense until Phillip II came along and reformed the army. The Macedonians gained far more respect after Chaeronea.

[Starlightman]

Ancient Macedonia


Coin of Alexander of Macedonia (©!!)Ethnogenesis

• Were the ancient Macedonians Greek?
There is no doupt that ancient Macedonians were Greek. It is thoroughly proved by historic documents and archaeological discoveries which can be found in history books and museums in Greece and arround the world. The most important archeological discovery in Macedonia is the tomb of King Philippos II. It was excavated in Vergina, Greece in 1978 and it proves beyond any doubt the Greekness of ancient Macedonia. All the findings are characteristic of the Greek culture and all the inscriptions are written using the Greek language. Among the discoveries of this tomb is the "Vergina sun" the symbol that FYROM attempted to use on its flag initially.

Facts which prove that ancient Macedonians were Greek people:

• Macedonians spoke a dialect of the Greek language
All the monuments and inscriptions found in the Macedonia are written using the Greek language. Take a look at the archaeological discoveries. There is no historic evidence to suggest that the Macedonians were using a different language.

• Macedonians had Greek names
All the ancient Macedonian names mentioned in history or found on tombs are Greek. All the kings of Ancient Macedonia had Greek names. Nobody discovered ancient Macedonian names ending to -ov or -ovski or whatever.

Alexander's name is Greek. The word "Alexandros" is produced from the prefix alex(=protector) and the word andros(=man) meaning "he who protects men". The prefix "alex" can be found in many Greek words today (alexiptoto=parachute, alexisfairo=bulletproof - all these words have the meaning of protetion).

Philip's name is also Greek. It is produced from the prefix Philo(=friendly to something) and the word ippos(=horse) meaning the man who is friendly to horses. The prefix "philo" and the word "ippos" are also found in many words of Greek origin today (philosophy,philology, hippodrome,hippocampus).
A detailed list of ancient Macedonian names can be found here.

• The regions of ancient Macedonia had Greek names.
The regions which formed ancient Macedonia had Greek names. Most of these names are used in Greece even today. You can see a list of the regions of ancient Macedonia here.

• Macedonian architecture was similar to the Greek architecture.
All the buldings found in the Macedonia region have many common characteristics with the ones found in the rest of Greece. Palaces, temples, theaters markets are characteristic sampes of ancient Greek architecture.

• Macedonians fought together with the rest of the Greeks.
Macedonians always fought along with the other Greek city-states against enemies from Asia.

• Macedonians took part in the Olympic games.
It is well known then ONLY Greeks were allowed to take part in the ancient Olympic games. For a list of Macedonians who participated in the Olympic Games click here.

• Macedonians celebrated the same festivals as the rest of the Greeks.
Examples of festivals which were celebrated in Macedonia as well as in other Greek states are the "Hetaireidia", the "Apellaia" and many more.

• Macedonians worshiped the same Gods as the rest of the Greeks.
Several temples dedicated to the Greek Gods have beem discovered in Macedonia and especially in Dion the religious center of ancient Macedonians. It is obvious that the Macedonias worshiped the 12 Olympian Gods as the rest of the Greeks. The Gods were "living" on Mount Olympos which happens to be located in Macedonia. How would that be possible if there was hostility between Macedonians and Greeks? This is another proof that Macedonia was considered a part of Greece.





AND.........

1)'We are not to be amazed that in the archaeological material of Pelagonia we have rarely
great wealth of reflections of all pronounced cultural events in relations between middle-Danubian and GRAECO-AEGEAN world'
Mikulcic,Ivan "Pelagonija",Skopje 1966, pp.2
'In such great chronological distance in the life of ancient Pelagonia two stages are visible:
development and existence in the frames of HELLENIC culture and later Roman one'
Ibidem,pp.4

2)'The lower part of Vardar is certainly the area south of Demir-Kapija gorge that entered HELLENIC cultural sphere very early and already before 600 b.c. the material culture is thoroughly HELLENISED.'
"The Valley of Vardar in Ist millennia b.c",Skopje 1982 pp.2

3)'Even in the last decades of 5th century stabilization in all spheres of social life is established.As first sign of new time the import from GRAECO-MACEDONIAN south appeared as well as fortified settlements that later grew into urban centers with characteristics of economic and religious nuclei of the region'
"Guide to the archaeological exhibition",Skopje,1996,pp.54

4)'All of them display certain particularities in their cultural development which are best illustrated by burial customs.For example,Pelagonia,which is naturally oriented to the South,was the first to be subject to GREEK influence,together with the lower part of Vardar'
"Archaeologic Map of Republic of Macedonia",Skopje,1996,pp.71
5)'From the mountains of Epirus DORIAN Makednoi (Macedonians) made their advance towards Macedonia,conquering the native tribes who latter gained new,Hellenistic culture and after that are politically organized into powerful state'
"The Art in Macedonia"Skopje,1984 pp.26
6)'Paeonians,people who during the first millennia b.c inhabited the border area between three great paleobalkanic peoples-Illyrians,Thracians and HELLENES..'
Fanica Veljanovska "An Attempt at Anthropological Definition of the Paeonians",Skopje,1994
7)'...Certain proto-populations occupying distinct areas of the Balkans could be distinguished on the territories of the cultural groups :in western part of the Balkans the proto-Illyrians,in the east the proto Thracians,in the south the HELLENES,in the northern part of the Balkans the proto Daco-Mysians and in the southwest of the Central Balkans the proto Bryges.'
"Bryges on the central Balkans in the 2nd and 1st millennia b.c." (summary)
"Arheologija" No 1,Skopje 1995

8)'With the end of Iron Age III, i.e. with the total HELLENISATION of the material culture,the prehistory of Macedonia ends.'
Sanev,Vojislav "Prehistory of S.R. Macedonia",Skopje 1977,pp.13
9)"The Art of Antiquity left in the region of Ohrid a great number of traces of its own presence.Illyrian forts imported goods from Greek centers and imitated them in a modest fashion.Political advancement of the Macedonians and their domination enabled cultural influx that manifested itself through products of crafts and alphabet.From the times of Phillip II deeper advances in the area of Lychnidos are attested.Cultural influences of the GRAECO-MACEDONIAN world are more present.Rich HELLENISTIC culture arrived at Illyrian soil"
"Ohrid" by Vera Bitrakova-Grozdanova ,in:"The Art in Macedonia" ,Skopje 1984, pp.85
10)"With the increase of influences from developed cultured south and with the acceptation of HELLENIC influences over Paeonia,which already in the V and IV centuries b.c.have committed great changes in the Paeonian culture, usage of Greek Pantheon was also accepted"

Petrova,Eleonora "Cults and symbolism of Paeonian tribes compared with the Illyrian and Thracian ones"
"Macedoniae Acta Archeologica",Skopje No.13,pp.129

"Having the central position in this part of the Balkans,Paeonia,apart from receiving influences from the HELLENIC south, wasn't an exception with regard to influences from Illyrian and Thracian sphere"
Ibidem,pp.134

11)"GREEK epigraphic monuments created before definitive Roman domination of our area are to be found in modest quantity"
Bitrakova Grozdanova,Vera "Hellenistic Sculpture in S.R.Macedonia",Skopje,1988,pp. 130
"Study of the inscriptions speaks about epigraphic characteristics of the neighboring MACEDONIAN-HELLENIC world"
Ibidem. pp.103

MACEDONIA IS GREEK..............

[Stalins Ghost]

Here's my old essay on the matter of the importance of Macedonian ethnicity: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=134805

I've come to accept that they probably were related to the Greeks, but it's not really a huge issue - the whole Greek world was chronically obssessed with its own identity. It makes sense for regions on the fringes of the Greek world to have its own ethnic identity issues. The one thing it is impossible to deny is that culturally, and socially, Macedon was an entirely different region to the south. The development of the Poleis in the south was a social process that dramatically changed the South's perception of the likes of Macedon, Thessaly and Epirus, and this affects every one of our sources on Macedon - the southern Greeks for the most part simply did not understand Macedonian society in my opinion.

[Faramir D'Andunie]

Here's my old essay on the matter of the importance of Macedonian ethnicity: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=134805

I've come to accept that they probably were related to the Greeks, but it's not really a huge issue - the whole Greek world was chronically obssessed with its own identity. It makes sense for regions on the fringes of the Greek world to have its own ethnic identity issues. The one thing it is impossible to deny is that culturally, and socially, Macedon was an entirely different region to the south. The development of the Poleis in the south was a social process that dramatically changed the South's perception of the likes of Macedon, Thessaly and Epirus, and this affects every one of our sources on Macedon - the southern Greeks for the most part simply did not understand Macedonian society in my opinion.

This statement holds a lot of truth. The ancient Greek world was indeed obsessed with their local identities. They were generally their poleis/tribe (Ionian, Dorian etc etc) first and Greek later. With modern standars we would find that what is today Greece was inhabited by many different nations who pretty much accepted that they are related to each other in terms of religion and language.

[Turnus]

Where to start with this one...

The ethnic distinction between the Macedonians and the Hellenes is emphasized by other authors as well. Namely, Alexander III the Great, as Plutarchus wrote, told his soldiers:

• "`Alexander, I demand you remember Greece, for the sake of which you embarked on this expedition, with the intention to add Asia to Greece...so that by the Hellenes and Macedonians you are treated as a man in the way fitted for Hellenes to honor."

Arrian, Anabasis 4.11.7 - 12.1
Let's look at part of that quote: ...so that by the Hellenes and Macedonians you are treated as a man in the way fitted for Hellenes to honor...First, Arrian says "Macedonians and Hellenes". If Hellenes and Macedonians were the same, then this is the same as saying Californians and Americans. What are Californians, non - Americans??? No, they are Americans, therefore this phrase is wrong. If Arrian used and, then they are not the same, otherwise if he's such a great historical source he shouldn't make such big grammatical mistakes. It is not a mistake, but Arrian is saying that the Macedonians were not Hellenes!

By this and your other conclusions you clearly do not understand the difference between ethnicity and statehood. Your analogy (Californians/Macedonians, Americans/Hellenes) and your conclusion that this proves differing ethnicity are faulty, as the Macedonians are distinguished from the Greeks in these passage not for reasons of differing ethnicity but because they are the single state that controls all of the other Greek states (which were of course not unified before this). This is the meaning both of the passage above and this other one that you posted:

• "For the Macedonians, I will conquer the world...but not for the Hellenes."

Plutarchus, Alexander, 47

Had Pericles uttered the same for the Athenians, it would not seem out of place.

As for this one:

• "Don't let the Alexander the Macedonian persuade you, he who sweetens the message of the Macedonians [the Persian Commander]. He has to do so since the tyrant cooperates with the tyrant."

Herodotus, The Histories VIII, 142.

I do not know how this strengthens your argument at all. If you are attempting to say that the fact that the state of Macedonia was a kingdom made them non-Greek, I think you'll find yourself in error. The major Greek cities all had their foundation in kingdom, and in the 7th-6th centuries BCE many of them were ruled by single men. The Spartans retained their royal line for hundreds of years subsequently, and the ceremonial office of basileus likewise continued at Athens.

• "...not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent Slave."

If you cannot see this as an extremely biased and elitist tirade against Macedonians then you simply affirm my suspicions that you (choose to) have no eye for scrutiny or objective argument.

The fact is that the Macedonians were Hellenised, but could not help but have various influences from the neighbouring tribes: Illyrians, Paeonians, Thracians, Agrianians etc. Due to this, and perhaps their location on the 'barbarian' edge of the Greek world, they were not neccessarily seen as purely Greek by the more powerful states (in the 6th/5th centuries BCE). They were nevertheless Hellenes, and certainly considered themselves to be.

[Starlightman]

Where to start with this one...



By this and your other conclusions you clearly do not understand the difference between ethnicity and statehood. Your analogy (Californians/Macedonians, Americans/Hellenes) and your conclusion that this proves differing ethnicity are faulty, as the Macedonians are distinguished from the Greeks in these passage not for reasons of differing ethnicity but because they are the single state that controls all of the other Greek states (which were of course not unified before this). This is the meaning both of the passage above and this other one that you posted:

The fact is that the Macedonians were Hellenised, but could not help but have various influences from the neighbouring tribes: Illyrians, Paeonians, Thracians, Agrianians etc. Due to this, and perhaps their location on the 'barbarian' edge of the Greek world, they were not neccessarily seen as purely Greek by the more powerful states (in the 6th/5th centuries BCE). They were nevertheless Hellenes, and certainly considered themselves to be.

......excellent post........

[Romanos IV]

Add the fact that many Macedonians had participated in the Olympic Games, which were exclusively for Greeks.

[Akrotatos]

The thread opener is probably from FYROM. Proving that ancient Macedonians were not Greek is a must for them since it's the first step to try and prove they are somehow their successors. Every new nation needs glorious ancestors and it seems that some SLavic tribemen isn;t enough for FYROM. Sucks for them.

And about the thread:

Greece in the ancient times was not a state. It was a mix of nations and tribes, Achaeans, Ionians, Aiolians, some Pelasgians (the Athenians considered Pelasgians and Ionians the same) and finally Dorians. There was no Greece except from a vague cultural idea which couldn't decide who was Greek and who was not.

And just try to compare Macedon and an archaic greek kingdom as described in Iliad and Oddusey. You will find...well zero diferrences.

Also.

a)From the Macedonian scripts we have find 90% of the words are Greek with some foreign additions.
b)Macedonian Greeks traced their language back to Hercules. OMG, so did the Spartans! And pretty much all Dorians! Maybe the fact that Hercules was a hero invented by that tribe has something to do about it.
c)Macedonians must have been really stupid to build an empire and use another language as their official one instead of their own.
d)The argument were Alexander is mentioned only as Macedonian and enslaving Greece. Try reading about the Peloponnesian war where Spartans say that "Athenians are enslaving Greece"
e)The city states were not the norm for the Greek world. We only have city-states in south and near-the-sea areas. We also have: Arcadians and Aetolians who lived in komes (villages without walls) connected tribally. Epirots who still had tribal kingdoms. Thessalians who lived under a system really close to the medieval feudal system.

[Bolwerger]

The following are some quotes regarding the Ancient Macedonians and King Philip:

• "He was not, however, a Greek politician or even a Greek, but king of the Macedonians". 1
• "Even in Philip�s day the Greeks saw in the Macedonians as a non-Greek foreign people...The dislike was reciprocal, for the Macedonians had grown into a proud masterful nation, which with highly developed national consciousness looked down upon the Hellenes with contempt." 2
• "Neither Greeks nor Macedonians considered the Macedonians to be Greeks." 3
• "The �unrest in Greece� encompasses all the city-states in Greece. These city-states were ready to throw off the Macedonian yoke. Here we have a clear delineation between Greek city-states, who were the conquered party, and Macedonia, the conqueror." 4

Philip II of Macedonia (382-336 BC), king of Macedonia (359-336 BC), was born in Pella, the capital of ancient Macedonia. Long before Philip was born, the ancient Macedonians regarded the ancient Greeks as potentially dangerous neighbors, not as kinsmen. The Greeks stereotyped the Macedonians as "barbarians" and treated them in the same bigoted manner in which they treated all non-Greeks. Herodotus, the Father of History, relates how the Macedonian king Alexander I (498-454 BC), a Philhellene (that is "a friend of the Greeks" and logically a non-Greek), wanted to take a part in the Olympic games. The Greek athletes protested, saying they would not run with a barbarian. Historian Thucydidis also considered the Macedonians as barbarians.
Philip II, the Macedonian "barbarian" was a hostage in Thebes, from 367 to 365, then the greatest power in Greece. During that period he observed the military techniques of Thebes, which will help him later reorganize the Macedonian army on the model of the Theban phalanx. In 364 Philip returned to Macedonia and in 359 he was made regent for his infant nephew Amyntas. Later that year he seized the Macedonian throne.
Philip came to power at the time when the Macedonians had just suffered a defeat from the Illyrians. Macedonia was in political and military turmoil, and Philip immediately set about bringing the people of Macedonia under his control. In less than two years he will secure the safety of his kingdom and firmly establish himself on the throne. After defeating the Illyrians in 358 BC, Philip sought to bring all of Upper Macedonia under his control and make them loyal to him. Apart from military, Philip had several political inventions that helped turn Macedonia into a world power. His primary method of creating alliances and strengthening loyalties was through marriage. In 357 BC he married Olympias, from the royal house of Molossia, and a year later they had a son, Alexander.
But Alexander never got along well with his father, although Philip was proud of Alexander for the Bucephalus incident. Alexander had always been closer to Olympias than to Philip. Philip and Olympias also did not get along all that well.
The family essentially was split apart irreparably when Philip married a woman named Cleopatra, a Macedonian. At the wedding banquet, Cleopatra's father made a remark about Philip fathering a "legitimate" heir, i.e., one that was pure Macedonian. Alexander took exception and threw his cup at the man, and some sources say Alexander killed him. Enraged, Philip stood up and charged at Alexander, only to trip and fall on his face in his drunken stupor. Alexander, rather upset at the scene, is to have shouted:
"Here is the man who was making ready to cross from Europe to Asia, and who cannot even cross from one table to another without losing his balance."


When Philip divorced Olympias Alexander fled. Although allowed to return, he remained isolated and insecure until Philip was assassinated (some think that Olympias may have even had a role in Philip's murder), in the summer of 336 BC.
Philip allowed the sons of nobles to receive education in the court of the king. Here the sons would not only develop a fierce loyalty for the king, but it was also a way for Philip to, in a sense, hold the children hostage to keep their parents from interfering with his authority. He also gave more people positions of power and more of a sense of belonging to the kingdom.
From then on, Philip's policy was aggressive. In 357 he conquered the Athenian colony of Amphipolis in Thrace. That gave him a possession of the gold mines of Mount Pangaeus, which will finance his wars. In 356 he captured Potidea in Chalcidice, Pydna on the Thermaic Gulf, and in 355 the Thracian town of Crenides, later acquiring new name Philippi. In 354 Philip conquered Methone, advanced into Thessaly but did not attempt to take the pass of Thermopylae in 352 because it was strongly guarded by the Athenians. In 351 the great Athenian orator Demosthenes delivered the first of his Philippics, a series of speeches warning the Athenians about the Macedonian menace to Greek liberty. The great Athenian statesman, spoke of Philip II:
"... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave." [Third Philippic, 31]
The Macedonian "barbarian" defeated Greece at the battle of Chaeronea in August 338 BC and appointed himself "Commander of the Greeks". Philip's army was greatly outnumbered by the Athenian and Theban forces, yet his phalanxes overwhelmed the Athenians and Thebans. His victory made him complete master of Greece. This battle had established Macedonian hegemony over Greece and this date is commonly taken as the end of Greek history and the beginning of the Macedonian era.
Two years later, in the spring of 336 BC, Philip start preparing for his big invasion of Persia. He sent Attalus and Parmenion with 10,000 troops over into Asia Minor but just before he was to travel to Asia to begin the conquest, he was assassinated.
His vision to conquer the Middle East, will be carried away by his son Alexander the Great. However, without the military and political efforts of Philip, Alexander would have never been as successful as he was. According to Bosworth, Philip's work with the Macedonian army and establishment of alliances with the Balkan peoples gave both himself and Alexander the resources necessary to carry out such conquests.
Philip introduced the 6 meter long sarissa, a wooden pike with metal tip, for use by his infantry in the phalanx. The sarissa, when held upright by the rear rows of the phalanx (there were usually eight rows), helped hide maneuvers behind the phalanx from the view of the enemy. When held horizontal by the front rows of the phalanx, it was a rather brutal weapon. People could be run through from 20 feet away, giving quite an advantage to the phalanx in hand-to-hand combat.
Philip made the military a way of life for many Macedonian men. He made the military a professional occupation that paid well enough that the soldiers could afford to do it year-round, unlike in the past when the soldiering had only been a part-time job, something the men would do during the off peak times of farming. This allowed him to count on his man regularly, building unity and cohesion within the army. In addition to the basic phalanx, Philip and Alexander used light auxiliaries, archers, a siege train, and a cavalry.
The royal tomb excavated in 1977 at Vergina (Kutlesh), near Salonika (Solun), is believed to be Philip's.

[Faramir D'Andunie]

As it has been mentioned in posts above you clearly do not understand the difference between ethnicity and statehood.
Personal assumptions also do not help help your cause as well

• "He was not, however, a Greek politician or even a Greek, but king of the Macedonians". 1
• "Even in Philip�s day the Greeks saw in the Macedonians as a non-Greek foreign people...The dislike was reciprocal, for the Macedonians had grown into a proud masterful nation, which with highly developed national consciousness looked down upon the Hellenes with contempt." 2
• "Neither Greeks nor Macedonians considered the Macedonians to be Greeks." 3
• "The �unrest in Greece� encompasses all the city-states in Greece. These city-states were ready to throw off the Macedonian yoke. Here we have a clear delineation between Greek city-states, who were the conquered party, and Macedonia, the conqueror." 4

Perhaps be kind enough to actually show us where you base these arguments, so far they only seem to be personal assumptions.

The Greek athletes protested, saying they would not run with a barbarian. Historian Thucydidis also considered the Macedonians as barbarians.

Of course you forget to mention that the hellanodikes, who are supposed to judge such issues in the games found those claims to be null and unsustained.

Philip II, the Macedonian "barbarian" was a hostage in Thebes, from 367 to 365, then the greatest power in Greece. During that period he observed the military techniques of Thebes, which will help him later reorganize the Macedonian army on the model of the Theban phalanx. In 364 Philip returned to Macedonia and in 359 he was made regent for his infant nephew Amyntas. Later that year he seized the Macedonian throne.

I still would like to see your basis over the whole "barbarian" issue. However, it is true that Phillip was impressed by the military innovations made by Epameinondas of Thebes, and was always fond of that city.

The family essentially was split apart irreparably when Philip married a woman named Cleopatra, a Macedonian. At the wedding banquet, Cleopatra's father made a remark about Philip fathering a "legitimate" heir, i.e., one that was pure Macedonian.

You mention yourself that Olympias,Phillip's first wife is a member of the Molossian of the Epirus kingdom yet decide to yet again draw your own conclusion.

The woman Phillip married in that marriage was Euridice (Ευριδικη in greek) daughter of his general Attalus, or according to a different source Cleopatra who was Attalus niece. Unlike Olympias, she was a member of the nobility of the Kingdom of Macedonia and her offspring would command more prestige and the support of the nobility for the throne.
Attalus was killed or exiled after Alexander the Great rose to his throne as he was deemed to be extremely dangerous(He was commanding part of the army that were on the other side of the straights together with Parmenion and there was always a fear that he would try to use that army to dethrone him)

From then on, Philip's policy was aggressive. In 357 he conquered the Athenian colony of Amphipolis in Thrace. That gave him a possession of the gold mines of Mount Pangaeus, which will finance his wars. In 356 he captured Potidea in Chalcidice, Pydna on the Thermaic Gulf, and in 355 the Thracian town of Crenides, later acquiring new name Philippi. In 354 Philip conquered Methone, advanced into Thessaly but did not attempt to take the pass of Thermopylae in 352 because it was strongly guarded by the Athenians. In 351 the great Athenian orator Demosthenes delivered the first of his Philippics, a series of speeches warning the Athenians about the Macedonian menace to Greek liberty. The great Athenian statesman, spoke of Philip II:

Interesting how you forget to mention Phillip's participation in the Holy wars for a dispute between the Oracle of Delphi and Phocea. And how Phillip not only was given the vote rights of the Phoceans themselves but also the lead of the Amphicteon council later. Surely the oracle would allow some "barbarian" to receive one of the greatest honors for any hellene, right...

In 351 the great Athenian orator Demosthenes delivered the first of his Philippics, a series of speeches warning the Athenians about the Macedonian menace to Greek liberty. The great Athenian statesman, spoke of Philip II:
"... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave." [Third Philippic, 31]

Demosthenes. The famous rhetor, leader of the anti-macedonian party in Athens and famous for trying to show any who would oppose Athenians in Greece as barbarians. This was quite usual for Athenians. Since Athenians where the only Ionians who were left in mainland Greece and could trace their city back to Myceanean era they usually considered everyone else as "inferior barbarians"
But sure you cannot see this as extremely biased against Macedonians .

*Sigh*
Closing I would like to make a few statements.
First, you seem to ignore what was stated above

Greece in the ancient times was not a state. It was a mix of nations and tribes, Achaeans, Ionians, Aiolians, some Pelasgians (the Athenians considered Pelasgians and Ionians the same) and finally Dorians. There was no Greece except from a vague cultural idea which couldn't decide who was Greek and who was not.

And for the sake of the debate, please no more personnal conclussions...

[Aradan]

Apart from all his points, which are merely personal opinions not based on any proof, being countered by *evidence* (which was simply ignored and the rant continued as if someone was just copy-pasting from a website) , it's also striking how a new user with just two posts, both of which in this thread, pretends to be asking a question while effortlessly drawing the false conclusion that ancient macedonians were not Greeks, while at same time sporting the Sun of Vergina as an avatar.

Excellent responses by Turnus, Belisarius, Starlightman and the rest on the absurd and ahistorical claims.

[Faramir D'Andunie]

To be honest the whole issue arises from trying to use modern political terms regarding nations in the antiquity. Greek nation was not even close to what we perceive as a nation today.

It would seem more as different nations who are related with each other by language and religion. And of course we tend to ignore how incredibly racist they were to each other.

[Akrotatos]

The thread opener was banned so let this thread die....there are a lot like it already