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Thread: An idea on bodyguard units

  1. #1

    Default An idea on bodyguard units

    Firstly, congratz for the awesome mod, I've been playing it and lurking on the forums for a while.

    I have no experiance in modding TW, but just got a huge lightbulb flashing above my head, and it would be great if it could be implemented in this mod. IIRC in vanilla TW the last level of government building had the "Upgrades bodyguard units" property, that supposedly turned generals/warlords into armoured generals/warlord (altho I think I never actualy saw exactly how it worked, since I never got far on any vanilla game, due to discovering mods). So, the thing is, it may be possible to make a building in DA (and not buildable anywhere else) that upgrades RK's standard BGs into Knights of DA, so FMs could also get that unit, and not just recrutable generals (also I've read somewhere that the AI never recruits RGs, so that way it can have access to them). Probably even adding this to Dunland's highest level of stables (available only in Isenmarch ofcourse) that upgrades their infantry bodyguard to their mounted one (it's was kinda odd in a battle I had once, where the faction leader had to walk across the battlefield, while the lowly general leading the reinforcing army marched around on horseback).

  2. #2

    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    From what I can see, the ability doesn't work that way (and it's tied to the marian reforms event). We'll look into it though, and if there's something to be made of it, we'll use it. Thanks for the idea.

  3. #3
    Thangaror's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    I don't really like the idea for the RK, but for Dunland it's great!
    I would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

  4. #4

    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    Well, it appears that the capability:
    1. is linked to the marian reforms
    2. applies to every single BG automatically
    3. is one-way only (can't go back)

    So I don't see how we could use it in a meaningful way. If you have any ideas, feel free to share.

  5. #5

    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    I personally think Dunland BG, Helmingas, and White Company deserves 2 HP, if not they are sorely underpowered

  6. #6

    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    2 HPs are reserved for Elves (and very special mannish units) - they would make an automatically self-replenishing BG unit (which only the player recruits) overpowered in a campaign. We might increase their numbers or their stats, depending on balance. BG units are not meant to be battle-winners anyway, their commander's morale boost/command starts etc should be their main use in a battle.

  7. #7

    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    hmm, how about giving the Helmingas and Dunlendings 2HP but have the small numbers of standard mounted BG? Well, true, they shouldn't be battle winning units, but it's still weird to see High Chief Dunland and his bodyguards hacked to the death by some half-depleted men at arms

  8. #8

    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    I'd rather give them double the numbers and keep them at 1 HP, instead of the opposite, as giving them 2 HPs will skew small-scale melee balance Eg, if 1 soldier of Helmingas fights 1 soldier of KoDA, why should the Helmingas guy be stronger individually compared to the KoDA guy?

  9. #9

    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    Quote Originally Posted by Aradan View Post
    I'd rather give them double the numbers and keep them at 1 HP, instead of the opposite, as giving them 2 HPs will skew small-scale melee balance Eg, if 1 soldier of Helmingas fights 1 soldier of KoDA, why should the Helmingas guy be stronger individually compared to the KoDA guy?
    interesting

    but I think in the lore, the Northmen are physically stronger than Gondorians, due to their lifestyle

    maybe KoDA have the better armoury and armaments, but in terms of pure strength, Northmen will overpower them (and not to mention in bogged down fights, infantry will overpower cavalry)

  10. #10

    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    Even if that was the case (which it isn't), that still leaves you with a heavily armoured, perfectly-trained Dunadan having half the HPs of a man of Rohan. It simply does not work.

  11. #11
    Thangaror's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    Dúnedain, especially the pure-blooded from Dol Amroth are far superiour to the Northmen in any regard: Strength, endurance, agility, willpower. They do have better armour and weapons and are drilled soldiers, unlike the Rohirrim and due to their longer lifespan are also more experienced.

    But actually, the BGs alreade *are* battle-winning units! Especially the heavily armoured cav.
    I just experienced it once again in my first or second turn of my Adûnabâr campaign: The bodyguard of Cemendur just charged - guess whom - into my Royal Spearmen (right, whom else? Stupid AI). And I was unable to kill them. Send another unit of RS around the flanks and charged from behind, a unit of swordsmen and finally charged with my own BG. No chance. Those guys are immortal. Not that they did a lot of damage to my spearmen initially, but since the battle took quite some time they slowly killed more than 50%. Of course I won the battle, but still this single unit gave me quite a hard time.

    I think the units are ok stat wise, though maybe you should have a look into the soldiers mass. The pushing power even against spearmen is enormous. My Spearmen retreated about 10 meters! Also the upper limit of men for a BG shouldn't surpass 30 men (large unit size), dunno if that is doable. Also they are so über compared to the standard heavy cavalry. King's Horsemen are quite good already, and of course the King's Guard should be better then those. Slightly better attack, slightly better armoured and that's it! But they are waaaaay more powerful.
    I would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

  12. #12

    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    Well, the intention is that they shouldn't be battle-winners. if they currently are, then that's wrong balance and it will be fixed. Along with mass and everything else.

  13. #13

    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    I would think that the Kings and heirs bodyguards would be battle winnners since you are talking about some of the finest and best equipped men in middle earth. Also in the the lore(from what I know of it) the kings/heroes lead from the front ie Isiludur/Fingolfin. So in this mod I would see the generals bodyguards as been very much battle winners which they are except, for the foot ones which are poor especially the WC. I know from playing many custom battles that the team don't want to use 2HP's for Humans and I fully understand why. The skirmish mode on these units is a bit pointless since the AI still suicides its generals in most occassions and when it dosen't it means you have to chase the bodyguard unit all over the map. Only one BG unit need this and it is the White Company, they would handle charges better with this.
    Last edited by insolent1; April 09, 2011 at 01:42 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    WRT to BGs being battle-winners: you are talking about Isildur and Fingolfin. BGs in RTW are waaaay too common to be so powerful. Heirs and kings already get more powerful BGs since their extra influence results in higher number of soldiers in their units.

    Skirmish with foot units creates more problems than it solves, as in most cass the BG units don't run as fats as the unit approaching them and then end up getting attacked with their backs turned.

    As for skirmish + mounted units, from what I've seen it does improve the AI slightly, but if more people report that it doesn't work at all, I'll probably get rid of it.

  15. #15

    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    Units with skirmish mode are very handy as no other unit can take a charge like they do, due to the way charge mechanics work all you have to do is have the unit skirmish away for a bit until you see the charging unit change from "charging" to "pursuing" which removes the very powerful charge of most cav in this mod. Skirmish mode reduces the amount of micromanagement needed to achieve this very powerful effect and btw the AI uses it all the time. The fast moving archer elves are deadly when they can achieve this.

  16. #16

    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    Would it be possibel to set the White Company to at least have skirmish mode, even if it is turned off?
    "Oh no! Uzbeks have drunk my battery fluid!"

  17. #17

    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    It is. Whether we go for it depends on our testing, but -as I said- we'll consider everything that's been suggested.

  18. #18
    TheDarkKnight's Avatar Compliance will be rewarded
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    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    Speaking of the White Company, sometimes I have to click multiple times to "attack" with their bows while they are attempting to chase after fleeing enemies with their swords drawn. They clearly have enough arrows to keep firing, so why do they insist on trying to chase down people that are far ahead of them?

  19. #19
    Thangaror's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    They have the "use missiles before charging" attribute just like many of Dunland's units or the vanilla legionairies. There was some reason why this was implemented, but I cannot recall. I think it had something to do with the AI behaviour. If you don't want them to charge, let them sit somewhere and activate "fire at will".
    I would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

  20. #20

    Default Re: An idea on bodyguard units

    It's so that the AI doesn't do the "foot missile bug" with them; the one where it doesn't realise its archers are in range of the target, and merrily marches them next to the enemy unit before shooting.

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