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Thread: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

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    Pious Agnost's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    Don't know guys, the French Army was highly demoralized, lacked fighting experience(something which the Poles had) and overall ruled themselves by an outdated form of warfare.
    he French army was not demoralized when the time came to fight. They were able to give a good account of themselves in virtually every battle despite a number of shortcomings, General Lescanne managed to make it from the battle of France, to the armistice undefeated in battle! Even then he refused to be taken into captivity. In fact, there were numerous pockets of resistance when France had officially surrendered, these pockets were not easily closed either.

    Their failure was in strategy and later, betrayal by the political classes. Not in moral or experience, or indeed thelower levels of command.

    It was very clear that the poles were not going to throw back the German Armies all by themselves, but without the Russian backstabbing there were lots of chances of a stalemate that helped the western allies to send support and troops as soon as possible. After all, the Baltic was not closed up until the fall of Norway.
    Poland's defensive line was compromised early, a stalemate was not going to happen given that they tried to fight the Germans at the border rather than on preferable terrain. If they had done that however, they may have slowed the Germans down a few weeks, it would only take one succesful envelopment (and believe me, the Germans had the know-how, ability and time) to get the ball rolling again, past the defensive lines and onto the rest of Poland. Afterall, Poland was just as liable to fall victim to what ultimately got France (having no strategy to ward off the schwerpunkt)

    Even at a glance, the Poles are hopelessly outnumbered and outdone in terms of technology. The fight they put up was amazing as it is, it's too much to ask of them to stop the entire German army (except the token force on the Rhine)

    The Western allies would have kept all their troops in France, Soviets or not: France would be more protected, the infrastructure would be better, it would be closer to Britain. Most importantly, the French army was already there! (Not that putting allied troops in Poland would have stopped the Germans anyway)

    It really is hard to over-emphasise how much of an advantage the blitzkrieg doctrine gave the Germans over everyone else (... That they could get to by land...)

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    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    It would've been an impossibility to even hold Poland: the only major port that the Allies could access Poland through was Danzig and that required sailing along Germany's entire coastline. The Germans would have a field day on allied convoys!

    The German assault could well have been stopped had the Allies not wrongly assumed the Germans could not advance in strength through the Ardennes. The Allied forces in Belgium proper were giving a good account of themselves but their positions had become untenable after the Wehrmacht broke through in the Ardennes.

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    Manuel I Komnenos's Avatar Rex Regum
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    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    Poland had by no means an economy or an industry as advanced as the German one.
    However, the Polish army was strong and could had defended much better in other circumstances.
    The equipment of the Polish army was pretty modern, with a large number of tanks. The available manpower was more than a million men.
    However, the tactics and the strategy of the Polish army was obsolete. The cavalry had still the primary assault role in the battlefield and the tanks were not used independently but rather for infantry support. The Air Force was also incomparable with the Luftwaffe. Also, the training of the Army was not very good and the mobilization came too late because the likes of Britain and France didn't want to make Germany mad, because they thought that Germany would kick their arse.
    Under the patronage of Emperor Maximinus Thrax
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    ~General Pershing, report to Washington, 26 July 1917

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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    Czhekoslovakia.

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    Ace_General's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel I Komnenos View Post
    Poland had by no means an economy or an industry as advanced as the German one.
    However, the Polish army was strong and could had defended much better in other circumstances.
    The equipment of the Polish army was pretty modern, with a large number of tanks. The available manpower was more than a million men.
    However, the tactics and the strategy of the Polish army was obsolete. The cavalry had still the primary assault role in the battlefield and the tanks were not used independently but rather for infantry support. The Air Force was also incomparable with the Luftwaffe. Also, the training of the Army was not very good and the mobilization came too late because the likes of Britain and France didn't want to make Germany mad, because they thought that Germany would kick their arse.
    Um, maybe the pole got their asses kick because instead of being incompatent, there was this little country called the SOVIET UNION invading them from the east as well

    Actually, something like half of the polish army was not accounted for and simply melted into the countryside or escaped to allied nations or formed resistance movements

    Theres a reason why the polish resistance (AK Armia Krajowa) was one of the largest resistance movements of the war and the free polish troops were one of the largest free exiles units in the allied militaries

    The reason you do not hear about the polish resistance is instead of being greeted with open arms and commendations after the war when the AK drove the germans out and emerged from the forests and out of the underground they were greeted with soviet bullets and NKVD units hunting them like dogs

    Edit: While the poles still used calvary, their actual tactical use was more as mounted infantry. Almost no units depended on shock and melee combat. Tactically and operationally think of polish calvary as motorized infantry with horses instead of trucks
    Last edited by Ace_General; April 08, 2011 at 08:29 PM.
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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    ^That.


    But I still persist on Czhekoslovakia.

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    Manuel I Komnenos's Avatar Rex Regum
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    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace_General View Post
    Um, maybe the pole got their asses kick because instead of being incompatent, there was this little country called the SOVIET UNION invading them from the east as well

    Actually, something like half of the polish army was not accounted for and simply melted into the countryside or escaped to allied nations or formed resistance movements

    Theres a reason why the polish resistance (AK Armia Krajowa) was one of the largest resistance movements of the war and the free polish troops were one of the largest free exiles units in the allied militaries

    The reason you do not hear about the polish resistance is instead of being greeted with open arms and commendations after the war when the AK drove the germans out and emerged from the forests and out of the underground they were greeted with soviet bullets and NKVD units hunting them like dogs

    Edit: While the poles still used calvary, their actual tactical use was more as mounted infantry. Almost no units depended on shock and melee combat. Tactically and operationally think of polish calvary as motorized infantry with horses instead of trucks
    Basically, it wasn't the Soviet Union that destroyed the Polish Army. The Polish Army had practically lost the war against the Germans, retreating in all fronts, before the Soviets even declared war on Poland. Therefore, I'm referring to the situation before the attack of the SU. Obviously, the Polish army had no chance to resist two major powers, but it had the chance to resist one. And it didn't.
    Under the patronage of Emperor Maximinus Thrax
    "Steps to be taken in case Russia should be forced out of war considered. Various movements [of ] troops to and from different fronts necessary to meeting possible contingencies discussed. Conference also weighed political, economic, and moral effect both upon Central and Allied powers under most unfavorable aspect from Allied point of view. General conclusions reached were necessity for adoption of purely defensive attitude on all secondary fronts and withdrawing surplus troops for duty on western front. By thus strengthening western front [those attending] believed Allies could hold until American forces arrive in numbers sufficient to gain ascendancy."
    ~General Pershing, report to Washington, 26 July 1917

  8. #8

    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    the issue of france among many is that a vast number of politicians were very pro-nazi, and what made the french army collapse was more the lack of coordination. on the case of poland at border or not don't forget the germans knew damn well poland since it was part of germany barely 2 decades before and also the germans knew all the infrastructures since they've themselves built them pre-ww1. so they knew all they needed to strike and they've vast industrial and manpower to overhelm poland, so poland victory was null at the start the best they could manage was simply delay the outcome.
    Common sense removed due being Disruptive.

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    Pious Agnost's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel I Komnenos View Post
    The Air Force was also incomparable with the Luftwaffe. Also, the training of the Army was not very good and the mobilization came too late because the likes of Britain and France didn't want to make Germany mad, because they thought that a war with Germany would be as bloody and futile as the last would kick their arse.
    There was no reason to think that Germany was going to be more successful in WWII than WWI at first. In fact, Germany was expected to do worse. The inability to hold France came as a REAL shock, completely unexpected, even in part by the German high command.

    I think it was Rommel that remarked that if they attempted to do what they did in Poland (unsupported armoured thrusts e.t.c.), to France, they would be annihilated.

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    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    As I recall it, the unsupported armoured thrusts did occur in France. The blitzkrieg in Poland wasn't termed blitzkrieg because it fit with the strategic doctrine by the same name, merely because Poland fell so quickly. Armour in Poland was largely used in concert with other elements.

    It was Rommel, in France and the Low Countries, that engaged in the bold, unsupported advances.

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    Pious Agnost's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    As I recall it, the unsupported armoured thrusts did occur in France. The blitzkrieg in Poland wasn't termed blitzkrieg because it fit with the strategic doctrine by the same name, merely because Poland fell so quickly. Armour in Poland was largely used in concert with other elements.

    It was Rommel, in France and the Low Countries, that engaged in the bold, unsupported advances.
    I meant unsupported by airpower, not by land (that sort of being the point )

    Should've clarified. And perhaps I was thinking of Guderian or Manstein

  12. #12

    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    France if the Germans stupidly attack the Maginot Line



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    Pious Agnost's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    I like that thought.

    If only...

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    HissingNewt's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    Quote Originally Posted by Huszár View Post
    France if the Germans stupidly attack the Maginot Line
    Doesn't really help when they have that hole in the defensive line along the Low Countries (and there's the Italian border, too).

    Does anyone know if there was a tactic that could successfully repel a Schwerpunkt advance by the Germans at that time? How would a nation go about doing that?

    Also, I think it would have been Czechoslovakia as the best chance. They weren't prepared for a major war at that point, and the Czechs and Poles could have also come in to fight the Germans.
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    Pious Agnost's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    Quote Originally Posted by HissingNewt View Post
    Doesn't really help when they have that hole in the defensive line along the Low Countries (and there's the Italian border, too).
    Well see if they're going to attack the largest concentration of fortifications on earth at the time, they're not going to have enough forces to spare to advance through the Ardennes. Nor will that force be able to make any meaningful ground.

    Does anyone know if there was a tactic that could successfully repel a Schwerpunkt advance by the Germans at that time? How would a nation go about doing that?
    One Soviet General was a proponent of a sort of proto-defense in depth. But he was executed for treason, I'm having trouble with his name.

    Basically you have multiple lines of defense, thinnest at the front. When the first line is hit by the schwerpunkt, this line retreats and merges with the second one, skirmishing as it goes. The second, thicker line, skirmishes a little more, then retreats again to merge with the third.

    When all of the lines have merged, the schwerpunkt is most likely out of steam, and has not made any significant encirclements, and the isolated armour is open to counter-attacks, with the infantry trailing behind too far to properly support.

    Also, I think it would have been Czechoslovakia as the best chance. They weren't prepared for a major war at that point, and the Czechs and Poles could have also come in to fight the Germans.
    I like this choice better than Poland, but the thin shape of Czechoslovakia leaves them very vulnerable to Blitzkrieg.
    Last edited by Pious Agnost; April 12, 2011 at 12:18 AM.

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    Orko's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    IIRC, in the early stages of the war the French invaded Germany and actually captured some territory, but soon retreated since they feared it would to another trench-warfare situation, just like in WW1.
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    SonOfOdin's Avatar More tea?
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    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    If this was a couple years earlier, France would be fairly secure. The Pyrenees, Alps, Ardennes, Rhine etc would make France accessible only from small paths in mountains or through the flat Belgium and Netherlands. IMO, if there were no paratroopers in WW2, and France had a strong front line along the Rhine(like the Germans had), a strong army in the Belgium or Netherlands and if the French had a decent air force and lots of AA guns, France could have held on.
    Poland is a vast plain where whole German armoured divisions and air units could easily operate hand-in-hand worry free.

    So Poland wasn't really at fault for getting steamrolled, and isn't really the best position to defend against the most advanced military country at the time.
    Last edited by SonOfOdin; April 12, 2011 at 04:19 PM.
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    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    Quote Originally Posted by HissingNewt View Post
    Doesn't really help when they have that hole in the defensive line along the Low Countries (and there's the Italian border, too).

    Does anyone know if there was a tactic that could successfully repel a Schwerpunkt advance by the Germans at that time? How would a nation go about doing that?

    Also, I think it would have been Czechoslovakia as the best chance. They weren't prepared for a major war at that point, and the Czechs and Poles could have also come in to fight the Germans.
    Got you covered. Though that article assumes your forces are deployed in a classical sense, rather than in a more modern Defence in Depth approach, as a Blitzkrieg doesn't really work against Defence in Depth, which was shown by the Red Army in the latter stages of the war.
    Last edited by Poach; April 13, 2011 at 06:47 AM.

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    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    Quote Originally Posted by HissingNewt View Post
    Doesn't really help when they have that hole in the defensive line along the Low Countries (and there's the Italian border, too).
    You forget sir the Mountains. And Your assuming Hitler could move enough men to Italy without the Allies knowing that was capable of launching an offensive into southern France... an offensive large enough would weaken the border with Germany. At best Hitler would have to use a decoy Near Marseilles But I dont think he was capable of that.

    Does anyone know if there was a tactic that could successfully repel a Schwerpunkt advance by the Germans at that time? How would a nation go about doing that?
    Attacking First.

    Also, I think it would have been Czechoslovakia as the best chance. They weren't prepared for a major war at that point, and the Czechs and Poles could have also come in to fight the Germans.
    Be it Poland or Czechoslovakia the best defense would have been offense. If France and Britain took the fight to Germany the Moment they invaded Poland the war would have ended sooner, most likely a treaty since the Allies never wanted war. Hitler gambled on the Allies not invading and he won.

  20. #20
    Xanthippus of Sparta's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The best chance to stop Germany. In Poland, or France?

    France, if the French would not have attempted to re-fight WWI (and poorly).

    If they would have listened to De Gaulle and used their tanks (that were pound for pound, superior to those of the Germans) en masse they would have won out.

    In a couple battles where the French did in fact do this, they defeated the Germans. But, sadly, tactical victories only considering the bigger picture.



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