Umbar faction dev thread

[Gfowle]

Just out of interest is it possable for Dol Amroth to start of as a protectorate, but after a mission to become part of Gondor fully, like the thirteen colonies in Empire. And if so would it be a good idea ?

[Natanael]

I don't know if it's a good Idea to separate Gondor.. without Dol Amroth Gondor can't survive..

Only add Umbar was the first idea of this thread!

[thespaniard]

I didn´t say that we should stay clear of pirate stereotipe, nor did i say that we shouldn´t have pirates at all, i said that naming a hole unit Taverneers was ridiculous, specially when they are the lowest ranks of the army, meaning that most of umbar soldiers would be rables of drunks. I mean the models are stereotip themselves, but i don´t have a problem with that The problem is not with the unit itself, but rather with the consept you made for it. Check the post again mate, i proposed two names for the same unit exacly. And the only reason i mentioned Pirates of the Caribean was for the sake of making a joke (you know what a joke is, rigth?). come on, a unit conformed exclusively of drunk lossers? tell me how that is not a joke itself.

ever hear of peasents? the drunken rabble could be used for archer fodder and so that an entire army isnt made of them lower their avaliability

[Hross]

i think that the Hashari are a very unique unit in the game and that it would be a shame to have them cloned for the sole porpuse of filling a space in a roster were they would just don´t fit in.

The Hashari concept-wise are Hashashin from Middle Eastern history, and as for the appearance of the unit they are a reskin of rangers which occur in three other factions apart from Harad. What I meant by that little note in the opening post was that the thieves would use a similar model with masks etc, a kind of hit and run unit. I should maybe make that clearer in the unit descr.

P.S and surely Dol Amroth was part of Gondor and under Stewards rule, never heard anything different

Surely? As far as I know this is only assumed, I think Tolkien does not call the men of Dol Amroth Gondorians. I'm not sure about that, I will have to scour every single mention of them in the books now . I do know that he states that they were of much stronger Númenórean and Elvish blood than the Gondorians whose Númenórean blood had been mixed with that of the Middle-Men thousands of years. To me it seems logical that a prince is not subservient to a lord, Imrahil after all governed Minas Tirith during Denethor's madness until Aragorn's coronation where as a prince under a king he accepted his authority- as do the kings of Rohan and Dale etc. But the point is that there is no solid answer only interpretation. If we can make Dol Amroth a fun faction that does not defy the lore, and there is a point in doing this- then I see no problem. As I said above not only is there enough in the lore to motivate it as a faction but there are many gameplay reasons why it would be a good idea.

So it's up to us what we think Umbar is, and our imagination will help us
While I deeply respect you and your opinion on Umbar, Hross, and like some of the ideas, I see that the thread is pretty much a deal of commenting on your ideas, and not critisizing or offering smth new. Thus I see no reason in it for me

Quite, I am open to new ideas but I am also allowed to criticise ideas in return too, and to say that in my opinion an idea has nothing to do with what we know Umbar is about. There are many ways to represent it, but we all know roughly that the Corsairs are pirates. Some posts are IMO going into something very different, whilst adding a spice of some new units into a faction can be nice, representing a faction as something else entirely just seems pointless to me. Umbar is a chance to create an evil faction with a unique identity based on these naval raids in the books, in the game Umbar could only really expand by attacking Gondor's coast or harrassing further up the west maybe even giving the High Elves some problems- which would finally bring them to life instead of having them either stuck there all campaign or backstabbing the dwarves for no reason.

don´t get me wrong, you are part of the team and i am not, and thus you get to decide what ideas to use and how, but i just don´t get the point of making a thread to gather opinions on your ideas and then get angry at them.

Ok you need to calm down, I'm not angry, I know you were just feeding back over 'just two units'- my response to it was yes, we can joke about the whole faction as PotC, which is fine it was just a joke, but you were also making a valid point that you thought Corsair hooligans was silly. I think in the context of PotC anything in this faction could be stupid . But you are right, it is just down to personal taste. But if lots of people here agree with you, then the unit will just not see life in game simple as that- so you're points are pretty important. Personal taste isn't a small issue when it comes to the game, if the faction was all about my taste and 80% of everyone else hated the faction- then it was a pretty pointless faction. So I want as many opinions as possible. Sometimes it is easy to come up with a faction that you really believe people will like. I think this was the case with Dale. With so little lore about the faction, someone had to call the shots. With the Corsairs though, like Rhun, we know a bit about them and we have seen them in the movies- therefore fleshing out a faction based on that which will please everyone is a hard job. Unfortunately I (and I suspect not KK either) has the gift that Disgruntled Goat had in making an entire faction (or two) from scratch off the top of his head without working with the fans. I admit that I have been a bit disappointed when (what I see as) people spiralling way out there, putting forward ideas that just aren't really relevant. Like I say -details aside- we all know that the Corsairs in general are dirty rogues on ships. I cannot see the point in making the faction an organised army like Harad, that is not to say that we couldn't have some units to represent some organised forces. On the whole though, the spirit of the Corsairs as a concept in Tolkien's lore is one of a rough pirate rabble. If I am the only one who thinks this then I clearly need to go back to the drawing board and listen to everyone else's ideas more, I just assume I know best

[Hross]

Just out of interest is it possable for Dol Amroth to start of as a protectorate, but after a mission to become part of Gondor fully, like the thirteen colonies in Empire. And if so would it be a good idea ?

Good idea but that's not possible. We can start them in alliance though, and with the enforced diplomacy that means that the AI will not break the alliance. So it is pretty much what you want I think.

Natanael, yeah you are right. I am getting carried away. I thought by introducing the Dol Amroth idea I would make Umbar a more convincing argument. I clearly got myself in too deep

I don't think that Gondor without Dol Amroth will be a negative thing at all. Yes Gondor will lose some settlements and the Swan Knights. However, we can give Gondor more settlements, new ones, as well as new units such as the Clansmen of Lamedon (and of course others) that are currently not in the official release only submod. As I said, a new allied faction placed just right there in the map will actually do Gondor a lot of favours. If Umbar is added, it can only expand by attacking Gondor's coast, Dol Amroth will be better at holding the straits against Harad and countering the Corsairs since it will have a different AI profile and roster. So whether you are playing Gondor, Dol Amroth, Corsairs, Harad or neither of these this area of the map will work a lot better. Gondor is clearly everyone's favourite faction so I can understand why Dol Amroth might not be popular but based on your feedback I may in future make a new thread to develop ideas and debate with you all about whether we should have DA, and what in detail it's roster should be.

[Lord Tywin]

Surely? As far as I know this is only assumed, I think Tolkien does not call the men of Dol Amroth Gondorians. I'm not sure about that, I will have to scour every single mention of them in the books now . I do know that he states that they were of much stronger Númenórean and Elvish blood than the Gondorians whose Númenórean blood had been mixed with that of the Middle-Men thousands of years. To me it seems logical that a prince is not subservient to a lord, Imrahil after all governed Minas Tirith during Denethor's madness until Aragorn's coronation where as a prince under a king he accepted his authority- as do the kings of Rohan and Dale etc. But the point is that there is no solid answer only interpretation.

'The Prince of Dol Amroth was one of the principal subjects of Gondor' - JRR Tolkien - Letters, No. 244, p. 323-24

Coming back to Umbar. Could not the more Numenorean/Dunadain elements be represented by AOR's outside of the city? Like a 'Hinterland' nobility lording it up in outlying Estates?

[Hross]

Subject to the King or to the Lord Steward though?

Hinterlands could be represented either in AoR through some settlements other than the coastal ones (not sure why we'd do that though) or via the tech tree somehow. I think KK will not be very interested in new complex trees however, although Jean-a-Luc and I are considering reviewing the tech trees for all factions working with a coder. However even if we handed KK the work in pure code ready for him to import into the game, there is no guarantee he will think it will be a good idea. TATW lives off its mass media arcade style appeal. More in-depth stuff tends to get relegated to submods.

Basically my point is that the simpler the recruitment system is the more likely the unit/faction whatever will end up in the campaign.

[KnightsTemplar]

I don't know if it's a good Idea to separate Gondor.. without Dol Amroth Gondor can't survive..

Only add Umbar was the first idea of this thread!

And I think without Gondor Dol Amorth can't survive either.
A faction with only one city.

[Hross]

They would start with Dol Amroth, Linhir, Tarnost and Goben Tolfalas with perhaps a new settlement called Ost-en-Ernil on the coast between Dol Amorth and Linhir. Edhellond and Pelargir would surround Dol Amroth nicely on the coast

[gittany]

maby just give dol amroth edhellond and goben tolfalas so as to not weaken gondor further, then give gondor west osgiliath and cair andros to start with

[KnightsTemplar]

maby just give dol amroth edhellond and goben tolfalas so as to not weaken gondor further, then give gondor west osgiliath and cair andros to start with

I think the two most west settlement is the most 'useless' to Gondor, as the corruption is strong and not much it can do as it's too far from the fronts.
Maybe is't better to give away them to DA.
Then Gondor will looks like a SA one that in the days of Meneldil the Third King.
And thats cool.

[el Cid]

IMO the only settlements DA should have are Dol Amroth, Edhellond and Goben Tolfalas. Something that might be handy too is a fort on the river crossing to Harondor, so they have to defend that area against Harad.

I think Gondor should be given one or two other settlements in return to make up for the loss of DA.


Giving DA too much lands would make them too big a faction, it was still a principality under Gondor.

[KnightsTemplar]

IMO the only settlements DA should have are Dol Amroth, Edhellond and Goben Tolfalas. Something that might be handy too is a fort on the river crossing to Harondor, so they have to defend that area against Harad.

I think Gondor should be given one or two other settlements in return to make up for the loss of DA.


Giving DA too much lands would make them too big a faction, it was still a principality under Gondor.

I think further splitting Gondor will be great.
Spilt it into DA, (main) Gondor , and a western one which the two far-west settlement and Annulond.
Since they were not fully Dunedain, I thibk Northmen will suit the western part.
They wasn't under a very direct control as they don't obey the kings and stewards.
So further splitting Gondor will still be lore-wise.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Blackroot will be a dividng point for 'West Gondor' and 'main Gondor'.
And Ringlo will be the dividig point of the three.

[Hross]

A third Gondor faction? Good luck with that! The would be no gampelay or lore value in making a 3rd Gondorian faction. Lamedon, Blackroot Vale and Lossarnach are good enough as Gondorian fiefdoms.

Naturally if Dol Amroth have a base around Belfalas then Gondor will need to have it's regions strengthened. Right now Ethring is missing, and that would give us a 2nd region where the Clansmen of Lamedon (not yet included in this latest version of the mod) could be recruited. I think Edhellond is actually best as a Gondorian settlement since it gives Gondor access to the sea 'behind' the buffer zone of Dol Amroth, allowing Gondor to still launch ships in defence against Umbar. The reason I argue for Linhir as part of Dol Amroth is that the AI will use this to defend the straits with Harad. I agree that a series of PSFs along the straits would be more interesting, even if they were just village models. Anyway enough about DA, I am working on a roster for them and I still have to get KK to agree to even discuss the idea.

[gittany]

Dol Amroth, Edhellond and Goben Tolfalas would be enough for Dol Amroth, because its just ment to counter umbar isnt it?

Gondor will have pelgari for their navy then everythings sorted?

[Santeri]

Could you please make own thread for that DA faction if you like it so much?

[Hross]

Anyway enough about DA, I am working on a roster for them and I still have to get KK to agree to even discuss the idea.

[ArmaFennica]

Umbar and the Black Númenoreans.
-I have similar thoughts with Umbar as does Hermes Trismegistos. (actually.. nearly identical. I also used carthage and it's culture as a platform)

Umbar is a very large city of large population of Númenoreans to begin with, and the kinstrife brought even more purists into the Polis-like city. Therefore their ideology of racial purity should be one of the main thesis of their rule.
Their culture should therefore mirror that of what they view as pure Númenorean customs. They are masters, and stinking rich.

Ruling counsil of leading families should command the city.

The population would be Pure-blooded, mixed blood and Haradians.
(The Carthagian culture is the point of view here)
Pure-bloods are the ruling class and they intentionally "create" half-blooded offspring to act as trusted soldiers, scribes and generally speaking, middle-classes. The Pure-bloods live three times the normal life-span, so noblemen can create one family/families of mixed blood and then have a proper marriage with pure-blooded bride. This creates trusted guards and continuation of their idea of purity at the same time.

Middle-class lives longer and are stronger than Haradians, and they enjoy privileges that the lower classes can only dream of. This makes them a stable force of trust and protection.

The general outlook of Umbarian forces and ships are strong and rich colors, idealization of their glorious past and their general arrognat nature.

--Do not use the mangy Corsairs from the movies, those were sad to the bone--

UNITS:

SEA;

¤Light Raider:
-Ship of great speed and swift outlook. Relies on her light weight and effective sails to run circles around tubby merchant-vessels of Gondor. Crew Mixed bloods who are keen to prove their worth.

¤Dromon:
-Main warship of Umbarian navy, capable of high speeds and aggressive boardings. Rowed by Haradians, crewd by Mixed blood and commanded by Pure-bloods.

¤Heavy Galley:
-Invasion/Coastal raiding vessel. Her large cargo-holds can transport entire battalion into war, and/or move booty and slaves back into the City. Rowed by Haradians, crewd by Mixed blood and commanded by Pure-bloods.

LAND:

INFANTRY:

¤Haradian infantry:
-Well trained and equipped Haradians who form the rank and file of any Umbarian battle-line. They serve the City of Umbar and are well trained and equipped thanks to the massive wealth of the great City.

¤Mixed Blood infantry:
-Produced to fight the wars of their fathers. They proudly stand in the fields of battle in their pristine gear, ready to make their name famous. They are equipped by the master-smiths of Númenorean skill, and are able to face any foe with fury.

¤Numenorean infantry:
-On the rather rare occasion when actual pure-bloods form units for war, they stand as the finest, strongest and best equipped troops in the field. Their skills and gear are reached ony by the famed Knights of Dol Amroth. Not many can face these tall and determined men and hope to live.

[ArmaFennica]

LAND:

CAVALRY:

¤Haradian Harassers:
-Hardy men on swift desert-horses. These men are lightly armored and fast flanking unit. They use their effective curved bows to pepper the enemy while being too fast to catch. Once the enemy is broken, they can hack them down with their long sabres.

¤Haradian cavalry:
-Well equipped lancers who can punch through enemy lines and go toe-to-toe with enemy cavalry. Their lighter horses offer great mobility on the fields of battle, but reduce their longevity somewhat.

¤Mixed blood cavalry:
-Knights of the desert. They are as keen to fight as their infantry counterparts, but are equipped with even better weapons and armour. Their large and strong horses are also armored, so they can attack and hold their own even without infantry support.

¤Númenorean cavalry:
-Like ghosts from the past, these Númenoreans ride into battle equipped like their glorious forefathers. The Númenoreans often go to war as heavy cavalry and have plenty of experience in this role. Only the famed Knights of Dol Amroth can hope to meet them in equal terms.

[Jean=A=Luc]

Don't know if they've been posted already but these maps have good ideas for new settlements. They're from a Finnish rpg set in ME.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: