Umbar faction dev thread

[Lord Tywin]

Dol Amroth, as a Principality, by definintion would have possessed far more independence of action than the other Gondorian Fiefdoms (e.g Lamedon).

Lorewise, I feel that it is perfectly ledgable to have an independant Dol Amroth (as long as it was vassal to Gondor - if this is possible modding wise).

[Madril]

Gondor should be splitted between SF and MN , because if we give to the Vanilla's faction news units so it would be overpowered . Moreover , Dol Amroth will prevent Umbar attacking the Anduin or infiltrating it . Don't forget Umbar and Harad both attacked Linhir and Pelargir (if I'm right ) so DA would be a counter faction against Umbar .
For Umbar , I think it's really a good deal to make them independanlty from Harad . First , they have their own history , acting quite on their own . On their past they have known Castamir , so they would have more Gondorian blood than Haradrim , plus they have Black Numenoreans . They will be really challenging to play with , because of their style of warfare . So I agree with a new evil faction .
Concerning others , Dunland is not major in WaotR . They were mostly under Sruman's orders . Lothlorien has a great past too , but they are quite limited in number . It's better to play with submods in that case . However , what will be an excellent counterpart to Rhunwill be Dorwinion . They will get Avari and Moriquendi , Dwarves and Men probably . :p

[Hross]

How can you properly take DA from Gondor without taking Gondor away? Explanation please, because I can't see how it could be done in any way. Without DA Gondor is just Minas Tirith. Harad stays as Harad thought even without Umbar because Umbar worked it own way and so did Harad.

Gondor needs more units and settlements, the Clansmen of Lamedon need adding for instance. Yes Gondor would lose the Swan Knights and at least one if not even three or four of its south eastern settlements, but again these would be balanced with new additions that follow the details in the lore. There are many settlements in Gondor and the Shire that could be added to improve Gondor and Eriador without overpowering them.

KK is also considering a Dunland faction or Shire faction, which I am both against but I think Eriador needs a proper review and the Hobbits would be part of that review. Perhaps likewise Dunland needs to be better represented under Isengard, then we won't have to worry about balance or fairness-as long as the gameplay rationale is there and there is enough lore to support it

[Incan]

hopefully no dunland faction they were a very small part of ME same with hobbits. if the corsairs are implemented do you think a possibility of them turning good should be probable? maybe specific units for either going evil/good?

[Madari]

The solution could be adding some AOR units, special buildings, traits ... For some specificic setlements.
This could improve the independence nation feeling

The main factions that should be represented in game are:
-Mirkwood elves & Lothlorien (Think on a solution instead spliting them)
-Ered Luin & Erebor dwarves(The same)
-Umbar
-Khand (I think doesnīt been discussed but Itīs as important as Umbar IMHO
Maybe smaller but not less important factions
-Dol Amroth
-Dunland
-Dorwinion(Could be interesting to add some units for Dale)
I think the hobitts and the men of anduin vales are well represented

[Jaldithas]

at least some AOR units for dale and gondor from Dorwinion woud be good

[Heals the III]

I also believe that, if we were to include Umbar as a faction, Dol Amroth must be included. It would be simply too hard for Gondor to fight against not less than 3-4 factions almost single-handedly.

With this, I would like to see more islands off the coast and maybe stretching the map southwards a bit. We could give Umbar some of these island territories, as well as a few for DA.

Also, in response to a post about an invasion of Mithlond, though that would be way too far, it has been written that the Corsairs made a few invasions of Rohan from up the Isen river. I dont know if you could kind of make them 'wary' or wanting of some of these provinces, but it would keep it interesting and also help to solve the Dunland argument.

[el Cid]

Gondor needs more units and settlements, the Clansmen of Lamedon need adding for instance. Yes Gondor would lose the Swan Knights and at least one if not even three or four of its south eastern settlements, but again these would be balanced with new additions that follow the details in the lore. There are many settlements in Gondor and the Shire that could be added to improve Gondor and Eriador without overpowering them.

Well I think Gondor would only lose DA right?

KK is also considering a Dunland faction or Shire faction, which I am both against but I think Eriador needs a proper review and the Hobbits would be part of that review. Perhaps likewise Dunland needs to be better represented under Isengard, then we won't have to worry about balance or fairness-as long as the gameplay rationale is there and there is enough lore to support it.

I am very very very against a Hobbit or Dunland faction. After the factions Umbar and DA, the most important ones to be implemented would IMO be: Lórien and Woodland Realm apart, High Elves split and perhaps the Dwarves. Yes I know FROME already does two of these, but I still think that would make more sense than Dunland or the Shire.

[Beregond]

DA could have some additional settlements in the south like Edhellond, but I'd rather see more settlements added to Gondor itself. And while Umbar was pretty independant, just like Dunland, Dol Amroth was always an integral part of Gondor.

Any feedback on the posted rosters, Hross? so far there is no discussion on this subject really

[Lord Tywin]

The problem is that once one 'minor' faction is introduced players will naturally like to see others included, that are perhaps closer to their individual hearts. DAC attmpts, I believe to represent all the individual 'peoples' of Middle Earth via their own factions and I for one agree with this direction. Alot of people have disagreed witht the inclusion of such factions as Dorwinion and 'The Peoples of Enedwaith' for example. The problem is not intention but rather the limitations of the engine. Total War does not provide for different political constitutions, such as tribal confederacies for example or varing levels of control a lord has over vassals or protetorate, to be represented. There is only 'factions'. The choice is between representation as a full fledged faction (with various limitations) or various AOR units.

In Vanilla TA's case I feel that the later option, that of representation via AOR units, is more appropriate that fully incorporated factions. Especially concerning Dowinion and Dunland. However, there is an argument that Umbar and its counterpart Dol Amroth are both politically and strategeically important to both the games machanics and the lore's chronolgy to justify indepenent factions.

To come the point, my argument is that just because Umbar and Dol Amroth have sound justifications for 'incorporation' as factions in their own right, that doesn't mean that every people of Middle Earth needs to be represented thusly. This is what DAC is trying to achieve and I for one am itching to play the new version but for Vanilla, I feel that for what factions are to be included in the future version, there needs to be careful consideration regarding lore, the scope of the mod and the effects of gameplay.

If you want to imerse yourself in the diverse cultures and numerous political entites of Middle Earth and take control of there speculative but lore founded possible destinies play DAC. If you want to be thrust into the cataclysm that was the War of the Ring and take control of the main 'political/millitary' players involved in it, play Vanilla TA.

But coming back on topic (hehe) I think what would need to be decided is Umbar, if included as faction, purely a piratical inspired one (i.e only corsair type units) or will it have some influences from its Black Numenorean, Gondorian and Castimiri past?

(p.s these are just my thoughts on the matter, I am not part of either the TA or DAC teams, just an avid fan of both)

[maxi90]

Let me start this post by admiting that i havenīt quite read the hole thread, only the first 3 and a half pages. It is just that with so many massive post here, it makes it really tiring to read it all, specially in one go. So, if any of the things i am going to propose has already been sugested by someone else, i apologize.

First of all, let me tell you Hross that i love what you have done for the mod so far, and this idea of making Umbar itīs own faction is no exception. Love the background story, love the mix of themes in the units, love the sole idea of playing this litle tiny city in the corner of the map and then climbing to the top of the world though pain and effort, love the hole concept. That said, there are a few things i dislike Two, to be more specific:

Harbour Thieves: Honestly, i donīt see where they fit in the great scheme of the faction. You have this roster composed of brutes, barbarians and pirates, and then you have this sneaky shady guys. Sorry, but i donīt see the umbarian warlords apreciating stealth as a useful trait. Plus, the Hashiri are one of the most unique units in the game, and an important icon for the Haradrim identity, part of what makes them different. I guess i wouldnīt mind having the Hashari reclutable for Umbar in very specific ocasions, as a sample of the colaboration between them and the people of Harad, but no clones please.

Taverneers: Ok, with this one i just have to ask what were you thinking and laugh. I get it allrigth, they are pirates, they drink. But are we going to take that stereotipe as far as to make an entire unit of drunken hobos? what is this, Pirates of the Caribean? And they are the most basic units of all, meaning they will be the most common too. How bad a problem is alcoholism in Umbar as to have thousands and thousands of unemployed drunks to send to war? And for that matter, is Umbar going through a ressetion rigth now? I mean, all those men have nothing better to do than to hang out at the local pub until a recruitment officer passes by and offers them a few bucks to get on a ship and raid some village on the other side of the sea (cause aparently recruitment officers do that in Umbar. In USA they go to high schools and colleges looking for youngsters that donīt know what to do with their lives, here they go the taverns and bars and hire hobos). I mean, if you want to have an unreliable rable of undisciplinated criminals as the lower tier of the roster (and i think you are rigth one that concept), then why donīt call them just Sea-Robbers, or Sea-Raiders, or something like that? or even better, why donīt use slaves for the lower tiers? Some people allready sugested that and i think that is actually a good idea. We know they used slaves, so is not against the lore, and it makes sense, hence that dozens of civilizations have done it through the centuries (figth in exchange of your freedom, or something like that). Damn, even most orc factions use slaves in their ranks, so it is not all that out of context. Taverneers just sound so... lame and generic and stereotipical... i donīt know. And then i repeat i really love the concept apart from this, and really apreciate the work you have done so far and keep doing for that matter, and i hope i didnīt come up too harsh on this one, but "Taverneers" sounds like such an awefull idea. And i say this to you the same way i would say it to anyone else, no other intention than to give my opinion.


Okey, thatīs enough for now. Later i will post a few ideas of my own so all of you can mock them as well.

[Santeri]

Gondor needs more units and settlements, the Clansmen of Lamedon need adding for instance. Yes Gondor would lose the Swan Knights and at least one if not even three or four of its south eastern settlements, but again these would be balanced with new additions that follow the details in the lore. There are many settlements in Gondor and the Shire that could be added to improve Gondor and Eriador without overpowering them.

You are just talking about balance. I asked how could you make player feel that he is playing Gondor not just Minas Tirith or Dol Amroth?

The problem is if I want to play with Mordor I want to play with whole region and Dol Guldur and spread the darkness to Gondor, Mirkwood and Rohan. Eventually dominate everything.
If I want to play with Gondor I want to play with whole Gondor. I want to keep rest of the world safe from Mordor, conquer Harad and keep the coastal clear. If DA is made it's not the same

[Lordinquisitor]

I`m strongly against making Dol Amroth a faction on it`s own. First, they were under Gondors rule and had no ambitions to act independently from them.

Their position is also not good- While Naval Invasions are possible they don`t always work- So they would mostly sit there doing nothing. Umbar is close enough to Gondor so that they are able to reach their enemy over the land way.. Also scripted Corsair invasions are a good way to fake their aggression.

And besides, i don`t think that Dol Amroth is unique enough to warrant a faction on their own. Sure, you can always add a few units but in the end they would be a mostly generic human faction. Also taking Dol Amroth away from Gondor would hurt their economy and would deprive them of the Swan Knights.

[Madari]

Taverneers: Ok, with this one i just have to ask what were you thinking and laugh. I get it allrigth, they are pirates, they drink. But are we going to take that stereotipe as far as to make an entire unit of drunken hobos? what is this, Pirates of the Caribean?

Agree on that as you say we canīt fall on stereotipes, they could be slaves or people of lowest social classes. The next tier could be compossed of some proffesional unit, lets say nobility and richest merchants. The higher tier could consist on Black numenorean units, and Gondorian counterparts.

And regarding to the ship, the corsair ships are OK but more advanced ship can be the same as Gondor.
After all both Umbar and Gondor are descendants of Numenor and both have inherit their naval and military technologies.

Personally i see Umbar very similar to Gondor, in military, social and maybe architectonical ways. Umbar has been Gondor for long years.
But they also are strongly influenced by Sauron and black numenoreans.
Dunedain and Southron cultures are mixed in the city, more than in any other place.

[Commander Ruunu]

I am currently reading the thread, but just 1 point for now. As lore accuracy is very important as I understand and maybe I misunderstood something, but..

My point is about nobility of Umbar. As I understand, current thought is that Umabr is ruled by descendants of Castamir, but I quickly remembered and double-checked that all descendants of Castamir were killed in 1810, when Telumehtar stormed Umbar and killed them and that's a fact. Or are you thinking about other unnamed Gondorian exiles?

Also, Dol Amroth IS Gondor. It's very dubious to separate them.

[Hross]

Harbour Thieves: Honestly, i donīt see where they fit in the great scheme of the faction. You have this roster composed of brutes, barbarians and pirates, and then you have this sneaky shady guys. Sorry, but i donīt see the umbarian warlords apreciating stealth as a useful trait. Plus, the Hashiri are one of the most unique units in the game, and an important icon for the Haradrim identity, part of what makes them different. I guess i wouldnīt mind having the Hashari reclutable for Umbar in very specific ocasions, as a sample of the colaboration between them and the people of Harad, but no clones please.

Taverneers: Ok, with this one i just have to ask what were you thinking and laugh. I get it allrigth, they are pirates, they drink. But are we going to take that stereotipe as far as to make an entire unit of drunken hobos? what is this, Pirates of the Caribean?

So at the same time as Corsairs would not sneak onboard vessels by night to pillage and steal, you think we should stay clear of pirate stereotypes? For a faction that is called Corsairs, it seems ridiculous to me that the lowest form of unit would not be a gang of cutthroat pirates. Pirates of the Caribbean are not the only pirates in human history and media. To not have Corsairs that are pirates would just be ignoring the lore, ok we don't have skulls and crossbones here but Tolkien does have them sailing under black sails- and I never mentioned wooden legs and parrots... by all means come up with something that is 'corsair' but not Captain Sparrow then...

Personally i see Umbar very similar to Gondor, in military, social and maybe architectonical ways. Umbar has been Gondor for long years.
But they also are strongly influenced by Sauron and black numenoreans.
Dunedain and Southron cultures are mixed in the city, more than in any other place.

The lore in the books and films makes it very clear that Umbar was nothing like Gondor. The opening post discusses how to weave in the elements of Gondorian and Black Numenorian history into the culture, but we all know what the Corsairs of Umbar were.

I`m strongly against making Dol Amroth a faction on it`s own. First, they were under Gondors rule and had no ambitions to act independently from them.

Their position is also not good- While Naval Invasions are possible they don`t always work- So they would mostly sit there doing nothing. Umbar is close enough to Gondor so that they are able to reach their enemy over the land way.. Also scripted Corsair invasions are a good way to fake their aggression.

And besides, i don`t think that Dol Amroth is unique enough to warrant a faction on their own. Sure, you can always add a few units but in the end they would be a mostly generic human faction. Also taking Dol Amroth away from Gondor would hurt their economy and would deprive them of the Swan Knights.

Dol Amroth were not under Gondor's rule, a Prince is clearly not a vassal of a Lord. Imrahil governed Minas Tirith at one point. Their position being good or not depends on your perspective. Since KK is considering Umbar as a faction- which is even less of a good expansion position than Dol Amroth, I don't see why Dol Amroth would be considered in a bad position. As you say Dol Amroth, unlike Umbar can expand by land and sea. In game mechanics, a separate faction like Dol Amroth that was specifically given a new profile (other than Gondor) with a roster with a different focus, then it would bring much more to the campaign than not having it included. The fact that Dol Amroth would have its counterpart in Umbar makes for an even greater argument. Much better than the arguemnt for including the Orcs of Gundabad, who have no counterpart and have a carbon copy roster, but I don't see anyone complaining there.

You are just talking about balance. I asked how could you make player feel that he is playing Gondor not just Minas Tirith or Dol Amroth?

The problem is if I want to play with Mordor I want to play with whole region and Dol Guldur and spread the darkness to Gondor, Mirkwood and Rohan. Eventually dominate everything.
If I want to play with Gondor I want to play with whole Gondor. I want to keep rest of the world safe from Mordor, conquer Harad and keep the coastal clear. If DA is made it's not the same

Well that's you. 'The whole of Gondor' is a matter of perspective, Dol Amroth is clearly mentioned in the books as defined geographical area, with its own ruler and its own military. Gondor didn't keep its coast clear it got pawned by Umbar, which is the point of this thread. The way game mechanics work is that by giving regions to a friendly faction, especially one at a specific area of the map such as Dol Amroth would be, is that you create much better dynamics for the AI. Gondor will still be fighting battles in the straits against Harad but with allies, which I think most players enjoy. Also Dol Amroth would send the occassional unit or stack up towards Osgiliath and Minas Tirith which again makes gameplay and mechanics follow the lore. Which is what we want right? Besides which scripting, suchas the Beacons of Gondor can enable us to amke for very fun situations where Dol Amroth aid Gondor.

I am currently reading the thread, but just 1 point for now. As lore accuracy is very important as I understand and maybe I misunderstood something, but..

My point is about nobility of Umbar. As I understand, current thought is that Umabr is ruled by descendants of Castamir, but I quickly remembered and double-checked that all descendants of Castamir were killed in 1810, when Telumehtar stormed Umbar and killed them and that's a fact. Or are you thinking about other unnamed Gondorian exiles?

Also, Dol Amroth IS Gondor. It's very dubious to separate them.

No that's right, Telumehtar Umbardacil is said to have killed all the Castamiri, but since the Castamiri ruled Umbar for 350 years and there were populations of ethnic Gondorians and Black Numenorians prior and during the occupation of the Castamiri in Umbar AND the fact that Gondor was pushed out of Umbar immediately after Telumehtar we can assume that not every single drop of Castamiri blood was hunted down and ethnically cleansed. Besides which for a culture to claim heritage from a certain people does not require this to be a genetic fact, and the opening post/roster suggestion is meant to represent cultures rather than ethnicities. These cultures are meant to weave in Tolkien's lore to a believable faction with a diverse history and a social system made up of different layers, which together would appear (and explain that apppearance) as the Corsairs.

[Santeri]

I`m strongly against making Dol Amroth a faction on it`s own. First, they were under Gondors rule and had no ambitions to act independently from them.

Their position is also not good- While Naval Invasions are possible they don`t always work- So they would mostly sit there doing nothing. Umbar is close enough to Gondor so that they are able to reach their enemy over the land way.. Also scripted Corsair invasions are a good way to fake their aggression.

And besides, i don`t think that Dol Amroth is unique enough to warrant a faction on their own. Sure, you can always add a few units but in the end they would be a mostly generic human faction. Also taking Dol Amroth away from Gondor would hurt their economy and would deprive them of the Swan Knights.

Also, Dol Amroth IS Gondor. It's very dubious to separate them.

Finally some wise words! Rep for that

[Lord Tywin]

No that's right, Telumehtar Umbardacil is said to have killed all the Castamiri, but since the Castamiri ruled Umbar for 350 years and there were populations of ethnic Gondorians and Black Numenorians prior and during the occupation of the Castamiri in Umbar AND the fact that Gondor was pushed out of Umbar immediately after Telumehtar we can assume that not every single drop of Castamiri blood was hunted down and ethnically cleansed. Besides which for a culture to claim heritage from a certain people does not require this to be a genetic fact, and the opening post/roster suggestion is meant to represent cultures rather than ethnicities. These cultures are meant to weave in Tolkien's lore to a believable faction with a diverse history and a social system made up of different layers, which together would appear (and explain that apppearance) as the Corsairs.

Absobloodyexactly. Umbar would be perfectly represented, roaster wise, by Corsair rables at the lower end and more Dunadanic (with Haradrim asthetics) at the upper end. I feel that Hross's roaster in the opening post fits the bill.

As regards Dol Amroth, it IS a part of Gondor. That is a stated fact. All eveidence points to Gondor being a feudal kingdom and as such Gondor's consitituent elements can be varied in their political form. A Prinicpality can form part of a larger Kingdom and its titular head (i.e the Prince) can be a vassal (think Holy Roman Empire or the early Princes of Wales were Vassals of the English Throne). However, as I mentioned above, as a Principality, Dol Amroth WOULD have a greater independence of action as compared to the other fiefs. There fore, warrents its own faction.

[maxi90]

So at the same time as Corsairs would not sneak onboard vessels by night to pillage and steal, you think we should stay clear of pirate stereotypes? For a faction that is called Corsairs, it seems ridiculous to me that the lowest form of unit would not be a gang of cutthroat pirates. Pirates of the Caribbean are not the only pirates in human history and media. To not have Corsairs that are pirates would just be ignoring the lore, ok we don't have skulls and crossbones here but Tolkien does have them sailing under black sails- and I never mentioned wooden legs and parrots... by all means come up with something that is 'corsair' but not Captain Sparrow then...

I didnīt say that we should stay clear of pirate stereotipe, nor did i say that we shouldnīt have pirates at all, i said that naming a hole unit Taverneers was ridiculous, specially when they are the lowest ranks of the army, meaning that most of umbar soldiers would be rables of drunks. I mean the models are stereotip themselves, but i donīt have a problem with that The problem is not with the unit itself, but rather with the consept you made for it. Check the post again mate, i proposed two names for the same unit exacly. And the only reason i mentioned Pirates of the Caribean was for the sake of making a joke (you know what a joke is, rigth?). come on, a unit conformed exclusively of drunk lossers? tell me how that is not a joke itself.

and about the thieves, i donīt know what is all the fuss about. i get that you didnīt get the joke with the Taverneers (irony after all is hard to get acros when itīs writen), but for these guys i was just speaking my mind. i think that the Hashari are a very unique unit in the game and that it would be a shame to have them cloned for the sole porpuse of filling a space in a roster were they would just donīt fit in. but thatīs an OPINION. isnīt that the sole porpose of this thread to give feedback, sugestions and critisism?? i mean, as far as i know you have pretty much categorically rejected every sugestion without a second thougth, and now you get offended by a post in which i literally said that i loved the concept and most of the ideas, but had problems with two freaking units. donīt get me wrong, you are part of the team and i am not, and thus you get to decide what ideas to use and how, but i just donīt get the point of making a thread to gather opinions on your ideas and then get angry at them.

[Beregond]

The lore in the books and films makes it very clear that Umbar was nothing like Gondor. The opening post discusses how to weave in the elements of Gondorian and Black Numenorian history into the culture, but we all know what the Corsairs of Umbar were.

Actually the only thing we know about them is that they were Haradrim who captured it in approx TA 1850
whether there were some Gondorians left or not, was the city made into a completely southern city or much of Numenorian heritage was preserved is unknown. PJ's Corsairs are just a stereotype of filthy sea wolves in ragged clothes. So it's up to us what we think Umbar is, and our imagination will help us
While I deeply respect you and your opinion on Umbar, Hross, and like some of the ideas, I see that the thread is pretty much a deal of commenting on your ideas, and not critisizing or offering smth new. Thus I see no reason in it for me

P.S and surely Dol Amroth was part of Gondor and under Stewards rule, never heard anything different