Umbar faction dev thread

[Silent Assassin]

If Umbar is made a separate faction then i think Lothlorien should be made a faction too. In most of my campaigns, the Silvans only leave 1 or 2 units there to go fight Mordor around Dol Guldur and the OOMM just capture Lothlorien without much hastle. They also have a long, expansive history within LOTR lore anyway and are just as worthy in my opinion of being a separate faction.

Lothlorien or other men of the North could also be considered. I know Dale is ones but I'm sure theyre were others, I didn't read the books but when Gondor lights the Beacons there are more than just Rohan and Dale coming to aid.

[AragornElessar]

What about a Fiefdoms of Gondor faction? Including Ringo Vale Dol Amroth Lossernach and Pelagrir?

[paradamed]

Honestly I think we should add another Good Faction also to help Gondor, geez Gondor are really alone against all of them maybe the only exception of Rhun

I think adding Dol Amroth as a faction is the solution to this. There already some great units done (Taro's and Squeaks' units are great) allowing a full roster. The hard part would be coding the new faction which is a lot of work to be done.

[el Cid]

I think adding Dol Amroth as a faction is the solution to this. There already some great units done (Taro's and Squeaks' units are great) allowing a full roster. The hard part would be coding the new faction which is a lot of work to be done.

I agree, Dol Amroth as a faction to counter Umbar would work very well IMO.

Micro-factions are always nice.

[Lordinquisitor]

I agree, Dol Amroth as a faction to counter Umbar would work very well IMO.

Micro-factions are always nice.

I disagree. One thing i really like about Third Age is that we just have a reasonable amount of factions. SS for example is terrible slow- Besides, we don`t have much informations regarding such little factions and would have to create even more fanfic.

[el Cid]

I disagree. One thing i really like about Third Age is that we just have a reasonable amount of factions. SS for example is terrible slow- Besides, we don`t have much informations regarding such little factions and would have to create even more fanfic.

Well, if we're adding Umbar, why not add DA? And besides, there wasn't much info on a lot of factions, Eriador and Dale are completely made up, Rhûn is also mostly made up. So I think this is not really an argument.

[Santeri]

If Umbar is made a separate faction then i think Lothlorien should be made a faction too. In most of my campaigns, the Silvans only leave 1 or 2 units there to go fight Mordor around Dol Guldur and the OOMM just capture Lothlorien without much hastle. They also have a long, expansive history within LOTR lore anyway and are just as worthy in my opinion of being a separate faction.

I agree with this, very much exactly, but please don't make this another thread with that discussion

I disagree. One thing i really like about Third Age is that we just have a reasonable amount of factions. SS for example is terrible slow- Besides, we don`t have much informations regarding such little factions and would have to create even more fanfic.

I disagree with it too.
Umbar, yes
Lothlorien, yes
Blue mountain dwarves, possible
Dunland, maybe
Dol Amroth, just no!
After that there comes separated Dol Guldur, Minas Morgul, Rivendell...
If you want those there is submods for them
Besides when I play with Gondor I want to play with Gondor not with some parts of it

[Makrell]

Well IMO i would love to see more factions in vanilla TA but as there are submods doing all this i dont think it is necessary. Some people dont want more factions, no need to force it, some people want more factions and can play submods

[mondpeiler]

gondor should not be split up.
I think gondor was a bit more a state then a loose confederacy...
what you have in mid is sth like the holy roman empire - one emperor but more or less independent kings and barons. that's not gondor.

umbar for instance (back to topic) is more or less described as a independent town.
yes, it lies in harad, but in the books both factions are reffered as different ones.
E: and both send their contingents to war on different routes

if you're realy going to make umabr a faction, please set your point of view more on the black numenorians - I (affected by the silmarilleon) did not imagine the corsairs like in the movies as silly pirates - but (because of their ancestry) a bit more civilised.

[Hermes Trismegistos]

Attention, monster post ahead (again )



Here an Umbar roster based on my concept. Not saying it is better than anything proposed before, and I know that Hross wants to take a bit of different direction, but I just had to think that through. Some of the units nevertheless are based on the ones from earlier posts and I also used the Sea Guild idea.
I have still not totally decided how to let the player decide which branch to follow, but as it is now, each branch has his own building tree and you should only be able only build the highest level if this side has the power in the city. Thus the availability of heavy troops and cavalry will always be very low.


Part of the original idea was leave out the normal recruiting buildings altogether and instead introducing the new buildings, so that the AI would actually build them in order to get troops. Problems would arise however if you conquer foreign regions. The Sea Guild would substitute barracks and the Estates the stables. there would be no archery range While I see no real problem in getting noble troops from stables or things like that it could be a problem that you could always get the highest levels of these units if you conquer buildings of a high enough level, no matter what branch you decide for...


The names are basically provisional: they describe what the units are and are not yet chosen to sound cool. To invent better names I would first have to decide on the language problem: How to name them? In Haradrim language that we would have to invent ourselves? In Adunaic which would also need invention but at the same time be true to Tolkien? A made-up mixture of these? Sindarin names that are given to them from outside (Gondor)?


I guess these are too many unit-types anyway. If necessary it might be possible to leave out the council troops, they are really not that exciting or fill a role that can’t be taken by any part of the “private armies”.


The roster:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Troops of the Council

Building Tree: Normal Town Hall tree

Umbar conscripts
Type: Light infantry
Characteristics: Cheap, average numbers, leather armor, iron cap, medium wooden shield, short spears, poor discipline, very poor morale.
Look: Coat of arms of Umbar on the shields.
Background: Every citizen of Umbar is obliged to take arms if the council orders so, but as these men are far inferior to the private armies of the different powerful factions in the city, they are very seldom called for except in times of real need. Some of them usually guard the walls and the outer fortresses.
Building Required: Town Hall

Council Guards
Type: Light Infantry
Characteristics: Medium prize and numbers, chain mail covering only the torso, high helms, no shields, short swords, average morale and discipline.
Look: Coat of arms of Umbar on their breast.
Background: The council guards are supposed to maintain order and peace within the city of Umbar. That task of course is impossible and so they mainly guard the council buildings and the holy district, but in times of war they will do their part to defend the city.
Building Required: Council Chambers, AOR Umbar

Hired Blades
Type: Medium Infantry
Characteristics: Wide range of different mail parts, scimitars and iron maces in melee, average morale, poor discipline.
Look: Heterogeneous.
Background: In times of war the council pays his own mercenaries to bolster up his troops and having a fighting force that is not loyal to the ambitions of one of the parties, but the city alone. They bring their own equipment and know their dirty work.
Building Required: City Hall

War Galley
Type: Ship
Characteristics: Expensive, medium speed, overall strong.
Look: Several masts with triangular black sails and the coat of arm of Umbar on it, several rows of oarsmen.
Background: Rowed by hundreds of slaves and packed with blood-thirsty mercenaries, these ships are only deployed when the council declares war.
Building Required: Dockyard

Troops of the corsairs

Building tree: Sea Guild Depot < Sea Guild Court < [Sea Guild Headquarters]: Side effect could be more experienced ships.

Corsair Crew
Type: Light Infantry
Characteristics: No armor, cutlasses, axes and sabers in melee, very good morale, poor discipline.
Look: Your typical corsairs.
Background: These sea dogs usually hang around the docks, waiting for a captain to hire them. They have no good weaponry or real training, but they fight like mad, when they are on their prey. When the raid is over they quickly spend their share of the loot in the taverns and brothels and the waiting begins again.
Building Required: Sea Guild Depot, AOR coastal regions

Corsair Deck Crew
Type: Light Archers
Characteristics: No armor, cutlasses, axes and sabers in melee, long range weapons, very good morale, poor discipline.
Look: Your typical corsairs.
Background: These more experienced corsairs know how to keep a safe stand on the rocking deck of a ship. When the corsairs encounter an armed vessel, they shower the enemies with arrows and drive him below deck, so that boarding becomes a piece of cake. Contrary to the average pirate scum they are members of the guild and get a larger share of the loot.
Building Required: Sea Guild Court, AOR coastal regions.

Corsair Boarding Crew
Type: Medium infantry
Characteristics: Heavy leather armor with metal parts as enforcement, javelins (throwing axes?) as ranged weapon (few ammunition, legionary or Pelargir marine style), cutlasses, sabers and axes in melee, very good morale, poor discipline.
Look: Your typical corsair with some better armor.
Background: These members of the guild get the first pick on the loot because they are the first to board an enemy ship. They use missiles to drive the enemy back from the ship’s sides before jumping on board and looking into the very eyes of death.
Building Required: Sea Guild Court, AOR coastal regions.

Captain’s Guard
Type: Shock infantry
Characteristics: Heavy leather armor with metal parts as enforcement, two-handed axes, very good morale, average discipline.
Look: Your typical corsair with some better armor.
Background: These are the men that the pirate lords and the captains trust. They work as overseer and frontline commanders on the ships. In the case that the corsairs ever encounter really heavy resistance they can hack their way with heavy axes through the enemy lines.
Building Required: Sea Guild Court, AOR coastal regions.

Far Harad Tribal Warriors
Type: Heavy skirmishers
Characteristics: Scale Armor, large shields, javelins, swords in melee, good morale, average discipline.
Look: Dark skinned, faces painted, red “tribal” outfits with heavy gold chains.
Background: No one outside of Umbar knows much about the mysterious lands far away that the merchants and corsairs from that harbor travelled. sometimes they bring men with them for war or other special tasks. Little is known about them or what their reward is, they mostly stay secretive and among themselves but you would really not want to encounter them in battle.
Building Required: Sea Guild Headquarters

Pirate Lord’s Guard
Type: Heavy infantry
Characteristics: Expensive, few in numbers, lamellar armor, scimitars and cutlasses in melee, very good morale, good discipline.
Look: Luxurious and extravagant garments in gold and black.
Background: Seldom do the Pirate lords themselves go on a raid, but when they do, the prey must be certainly worth it. In these cases they are guarded by their most chosen and trustworthy men the terror of all the seas of Middle Earth.
Building Required: Sea Guild Headquarters, AOR coastal regions.
(These should also be the standard bodyguard for Umbar)

Armed Trading Ship
Type: Ship
Characteristics: Slow, bad battle attributes, but large crew.
Look: Massive, large, rectangular sails.
Background: In times of war every merchant is obliged to provide his ship for the fleet. Surprisingly most of the ships are already pretty well armed, but for war they are manned with additional mercenaries.
Building Required: Port

Corsair Ship
Type: Ship
Characteristics: Very fast, rather small crew but good battle attributes.
Look: Streamlined, elegant, triangular black sails.
Background: These fast sailing ships are the terror of all the coast dwellers in Middle Earth. For a share given to the Council and the Guilds they are allowed to sail out and prey on any ship outside of Umbar.
Building Required: Shipwright

Swimming Fortress
Type: Ship
Characteristics: Slow, but a true terror in naval battles.
Look: Many oars, masts, black sails, high constructions and battle towers on the decks.
Background: The flagships of the Pirate Lords themselves are the heaviest ships on the seas of Middle Earth. Because of their slow speed they are not so fit for the usual raids where a quick escape is essential - when they strike, the strike is deadly and no enemy is left to resist.
Building Required: Dockyard

Troops of the Nobility

Building Tree: Estate < Mansion < [Residence] : side effect could be better farming

Thugs
Type: Light Infantry
Characteristics: Cheap but numerous, no armor, clubs, axes, knives in melee, throwing stones for ranged attack, very poor morale and discipline.
Look: Ragged, heterogeneous
Background: The streets of Umbar are full of scum and criminals. Many of these desperate people pledge allegiance to one of the great noble houses and get paid to vote for them in the political assemblies, to beat up political opponents or do other dirty work. Though not really equipped for battle they can make entering the city of Umbar a living hell for every invader: Every alleyway an ambush, every house a fortress, every square a battlefield.
Building Required: Estate

Armed Slaves
Type: Light Spearmen
Characteristics: Cheap but numerous, shields of different size and shape, spears in melee, anti-cavalry.
Look: Scrubby tunics, bare arms and legs, various coats of arms of the different houses on their shields, very poor morale, average discipline.
Background: The mansions outside of Umbar are often true fortresses, constantly plagued by raids of Bedouin tribes. to defend their property the lords of Umbar often arm their slaves. Hold in line by the whips of their masters, they have strong arms, strengthened by hard labor, but their loyalty is doubtful.
Building Required: Estate

Armed Thugs
Type: Light Infantry
Characteristics: cheap but numerous, no or leather armor, shields of different size and shape, some with helms, Swords and Axes in melee, very poor morale and discipline.
Look: Ragged, heterogeneous, various coats of arms of the different houses on their shields
Background: In times of war the noble houses open their armories and equip all their slaves and followers. Though the rabble from the streets still won’t stand up against professional armies, they will fill up the ranks of Umbar’s armies with their numbers.
Building Required: Mansion

Houseguard Slaves
Type: Medium Infantry
Characteristics: Medium numbers and prize, chain mail, helms, short swords, no shields, good morale and average discipline.
Look: Fine clothing, long garments (These slaves are dresses to be seen in the house, not hard working outside)
Background: Most slaves are there to work hard until they drop dead, but you always need some that can be trusted more: those who raise your children and cook your dinner but mostly those that watch over your houses and your sleep - and the other slaves. They get a lot of privileges but they also know that no one will protect them from torture and horrible death if they fail their master - or if he feels like it.
Building Required: Mansion

Slave Pikemen
Type: Pikemen.
Characteristics: Large Numbers, low prize, no armor, long pikes, very poor morale and discipline.
Look: Scabby tunics, bare arms and legs.
Background: In times of war the nobles tend to equip their slaves with long pikes. Originally intended as a cheap solution to give them some fighting power without real training these pikes proved to be surprisingly effective especially against the cavalry of the Haradrim tribes and so the tactics of their usage have been perfected and with hard drill the slaves have been taught to use them properly.
Building Required: Mansion

Slave Overseers
Type: Special
Characteristics: Very low numbers, medium prize, leather amour with parts of metal, spiked clubs and whips in melee, good morale and average discipline inspires troops nearby (perfect but probably impossible would be the ability to inspire only slave troops)
Look: Bulky, muscular, chains and maybe some instruments of torture in their belts.
Background: No nobleman wants to spend his time with dirty slaves, so these strong and trustworthy men are employed to guard them, train them and punish them. In times of war they are also brought to the battlefield if the slave troops seem to need additional motivation.
Building Required: Residence

Noble Guard
Type: Heavy spearmen
Characteristics: Low numbers, high prize, lamellar armor, large round shields, black spears, very good morale and discipline.
Look: Thick black and gold armor for the whole body, metal masks, shields with the various coats of arms of the different houses on them.
Background: The family of a noblemen consists of more than just his relatives in blood. The core troops of a noble house consists of the lower nobility: Members of smaller houses that are vassals of a greater lord, bastards and sidelines of the family tree, but they all see themselves as members of the house they serve and true Numenorians. They wear only the best of equipment.
Building Required: Residence

Umbar Nobles
Type: Heavy Cavalry
Characteristics: Low numbers, very high prize, lamellar armor, large swords, no shields, very good morale and discipline.
Look: Thick black and gold armor for horses and men.
Background: These proud and powerful men only go to battle if they really have to, but in the war-like society of Umbar they train for it their whole life. They get the best steeds, weapons and amour and in battle they appear truly as a reminiscence to the Black Numenorians of once.
Building Required: Residence, AOR Umbar

Troops of the Haradrim settlers

Building tree: Caravan Stop < Caravansary < [Fortified Caravansary]

Market Militia
Type: Light Infantry
Characteristics: No armor or shield, axes and hammers (AP), average morale and poor discipline.
Look: Long garments, heterogeneous colors and headgear.
Background: When the powerful merchant lord calls them, all the small traders and craftsmen take up their tools and weapons and defend their interests: Whether it is an invasion of the enemy or just the drunken rabble from the docks forgetting what is not theirs.
Building Required: Caravan Stop

Shore Dwellers
Type: Light Archers
Characteristics: Cheap basic archers, no armor, knives in melee, average morale and poor discipline.
Look: Ragged, wild
Background: These people of mixed origins inhabit the borderlands of Umbar’s territory, far outside the city walls. They earn their living as smugglers, helping sailors who are unwilling to pay the larger part of their earnings to the guilds or the council. Always threatened by Haradrim raiders, council troops enforcing the law and vengeful henchmen of the pirate lords they have learned to fight and usually turn to the merchant lords for protection.
Building Required: Caravan Stop, AOR coastal regions

Market Guard
Type: Medium Archers
Characteristics: Leather armor with enforcing metal parts, bows, scimitars in melee, average morale and discipline.
Look: Haradrim-like but with untypical armor parts and helmets.
Background: The peace of the trader is holy for the Haradrim, but sadly most of the inhabitants of Umbar don’t have so much respect for ethics and tradition. Thus the merchant lords pay men to protect the markets and the merchants. These men are equipped for melee as well as for ranged battle.
Building Required: Caravansary

Merchant Cavalry
Type: Skirmisher cavalry
Characteristics: Leather armor with enforcing metal parts, small round shields, javelins, scimitars in melee, good morale and discipline.
Look: Haradrim-like but with untypical armor parts and helmets.
Background: The merchant lords of Haradrim origin have long entered the high society of Umbar but they haven’t totally forgotten their origins. When they go to war they and their families still do so on horseback and try to avoid melee battle.
Building Required: Fortified Caravansary

Caravan Guard
Type: Camel riders
Characteristics: Lamellar armor, long spears, frightens horses, good morale and discipline.
Look: Bedouin-like, but with body armor.
Background: The caravans need protection on their wide travels through dangerous lands. The merchant lord employ hardened men on camels for this task. When they go to war they also can have a devastating effect on enemy cavalry.
Building Required: Fortified Caravansary

[Natanael]

hi all,

evil only need some new micro faction..

Umbar is my favorite... and why not make dunland too!!

umbar can attack gondor and all other faction who live near the sea!

dunland is a good choice because there is no challenge for high elves and eriador.

[el Cid]

hi all,

evil only need some new micro faction..

Umbar is my favorite... and why not make dunland too!!

umbar can attack gondor and all other faction who live near the sea!

dunland is a good choice because there is no challenge for high elves and eriador.

Dunland was not important in the War of the Ring, because only a small number of them fought for Saruman. And Eriador and the High Elves have ATM two orc factions to fight, I think that's enough.

[thespaniard]

Dunland was not important in the War of the Ring, because only a small number of them fought for Saruman. And Eriador and the High Elves have ATM two orc factions to fight, I think that's enough.

Most definitly not all the elves have to lose in Rivendell witch usualy doesent happen in my campaigns and the HE and eriador almost always mop up the OOTMM and Gunabad orcs easily. Umbar could provide a threat at least to the HE western settlements (mithlond in particular) Ive nvr read in the books but the Elves were fleeing ME correct? so wouldnt it be a good plan for the corsairs to sail in after the Elven ships left the Elven settements less defended?

[Zack-Stefy]

maybe i can help with unit concepts i'm also working for other mods PM me if you want

[el Cid]

Most definitly not all the elves have to lose in Rivendell witch usualy doesent happen in my campaigns and the HE and eriador almost always mop up the OOTMM and Gunabad orcs easily. Umbar could provide a threat at least to the HE western settlements (mithlond in particular) Ive nvr read in the books but the Elves were fleeing ME correct? so wouldnt it be a good plan for the corsairs to sail in after the Elven ships left the Elven settements less defended?

Well for one that is not true, in my campaigns (VH/VH) the Elves hold on to Rivendell, but always lose it after some time (there are exceptions though).

Umbar is way too far from Mithlond to pose a threat to it, it is like two times the distance covered by Frodo (though they go faster by sea).

[Hengest]

I agree, Dol Amroth as a faction to counter Umbar would work very well IMO.

Micro-factions are always nice.

That's also my take on this, I don't really see them as micro-factions though. Dol Amroth definitely and possible Umbar would require a few new settlements if they are going to work better in the map. When I mentioned Dol Amroth to KK he didn't like the idea, but I think that is probably because a solid proposal hasn't been presented to him yet. That is my next project. I think Dol Amroth and Umbar will not take away from Gondor or Harad if done correctly and will in fact create more action in this area of the map and create a more specialised and local conflict.

The problem with Harad and Gondor right now is that if one of them gains the upper hand along the coasts they start expanding at a crazy rate into each others territories. If Umbar and Dol Amroth were more naval based factions I think it would still give us the right kind of conflict without unbalancing the fight in the campaign due to the rosters of each.

A few posters have been talking about Umbar having the option to support Aragorn or Gondor, but I recommend going back to the lore (which the opening post refers to)- Umbar was never going to get along with the west ever again and were well-entrenched followers of Melkor.

[alreadyded]

That's also my take on this, I don't really see them as micro-factions though. Dol Amroth definitely and possible Umbar would require a few new settlements if they are going to work better in the map. When I mentioned Dol Amroth to KK he didn't like the idea, but I think that is probably because a solid proposal hasn't been presented to him yet. That is my next project. I think Dol Amroth and Umbar will not take away from Gondor or Harad if done correctly and will in fact create more action in this area of the map and create a more specialised and local conflict.

The problem with Harad and Gondor right now is that if one of them gains the upper hand along the coasts they start expanding at a crazy rate into each others territories. If Umbar and Dol Amroth were more naval based factions I think it would still give us the right kind of conflict without unbalancing the fight in the campaign due to the rosters of each.

A few posters have been talking about Umbar having the option to support Aragorn or Gondor, but I recommend going back to the lore (which the opening post refers to)- Umbar was never going to get along with the west ever again and were well-entrenched followers of Melkor.

I doubt Umbar will be added to vanilla TATW as a faction, there are many other factions that should be added first for both lore and gameplay reasons. Umbar wasn't its own faction in the late TA, and m2tw factions cannot be "naval" factions, the AI is incapable of this. They will still send their troops on land like everyone else. So I would recommend that you do whatever you want, as you will probably have to do most or all the work, and it will be your submod.

[el Cid]

That's also my take on this, I don't really see them as micro-factions though. Dol Amroth definitely and possible Umbar would require a few new settlements if they are going to work better in the map. When I mentioned Dol Amroth to KK he didn't like the idea, but I think that is probably because a solid proposal hasn't been presented to him yet. That is my next project. I think Dol Amroth and Umbar will not take away from Gondor or Harad if done correctly and will in fact create more action in this area of the map and create a more specialised and local conflict.

The problem with Harad and Gondor right now is that if one of them gains the upper hand along the coasts they start expanding at a crazy rate into each others territories. If Umbar and Dol Amroth were more naval based factions I think it would still give us the right kind of conflict without unbalancing the fight in the campaign due to the rosters of each.

A few posters have been talking about Umbar having the option to support Aragorn or Gondor, but I recommend going back to the lore (which the opening post refers to)- Umbar was never going to get along with the west ever again and were well-entrenched followers of Melkor.

I agree totally, and I think that if DA should be included that they should get control over Tolfalas (that's the name right) the island in the bay. The only settlement they would take away from Gondor would be DA itself, and nothing else. Gondor could be given an additional settlement to make up for this. DA should be tasked with helping Gondor defend the crossing of the Anduin, as well as defending Gondor from pirates.

@alreadyded, TATW factions can be naval, it just requires some scripting for them to do it. And the reason this thread exists, is because KK is thinking about it (or at least considers it a possibility).

[Santeri]

That's also my take on this, I don't really see them as micro-factions though. Dol Amroth definitely and possible Umbar would require a few new settlements if they are going to work better in the map. When I mentioned Dol Amroth to KK he didn't like the idea, but I think that is probably because a solid proposal hasn't been presented to him yet. That is my next project. I think Dol Amroth and Umbar will not take away from Gondor or Harad if done correctly and will in fact create more action in this area of the map and create a more specialised and local conflict.

How can you properly take DA from Gondor without taking Gondor away? Explanation please, because I can't see how it could be done in any way. Without DA Gondor is just Minas Tirith. Harad stays as Harad thought even without Umbar because Umbar worked it own way and so did Harad.

[el Cid]

How can you properly take DA from Gondor without taking Gondor away? Explanation please, because I can't see how it could be done in any way. Without DA Gondor is just Minas Tirith. Harad stays as Harad thought even without Umbar because Umbar worked it own way and so did Harad.

Taking DA away from Gondor means just taking one city away, this could easily be compensated by giving Gondor another settlement in return.

And btw, DA acted very independant too , it was not independant, but it acted very much like it.