Umbar faction dev thread

[Scorpius Centaurus]

I've seen a few people mention the idea of Umbar having cavalry as bodyguards. I would prefer them to be infantry. We already have Gondor and both Rhun and Harad using cavalry for bodyguards. And I see Umbar as having mainly an infantry roster, with maybe one unit of Harad cavalry as mercenaries to hire.

@alreadyded I like your unit ideas.

[Baywatch]

The current Castamiri Kaΐnuheen concept looks almost identical to the Serpent Guard, other than that I like it a lot. I know it's just a concept but I really hope they aren't influenced too heavily from that image. I'm not a huge fan of PJ's interpretation of Umbar but the mod is based visually on the movie so no point in straying from that now.

[Mikail Mengsk]

THose image are concepts for the Serpent Guard, in fact, IIRC.

[Beregond]

I will post the roster today, based on my post earlier, with some concepts from Carthage and Ancient Phoenicia warfare.

Hermes, the idea of several branches of development is really good! although we could have only two branches, namely Harad settlers and Umbar citizens,I'm not sure it would be possible to make a diversed rosters for all three factions you mentioned

[Lemoniser]

Although I haven't totally read through the thread (got about half way and the massive posts stopped me)
I started out not quite liking the idea but you've changed my mind a bit. My main reason for not liking Umbar as it's own faction is the possibility of Gondor falling even quicker. Good for lore players but not for random ones and I'd have to say that I'm on the fence on which I am.
This could be solved by making Umbar-Harad nrelations not the top (after all who would like this race of cocky bastards who control one of the largest cities of waht was your nation? Okay thats skewing things a bit but it could have been similar. But then I'd hate all out war between Harad and Umbar.

So basically will the inclusion of Umbar, which will hopefully take away a bit of Harad's power, be able to at least par the power of the prior combined Umbar-Harad with the separated? Or even better in my view if it would lessen it a bit.

[Lord Tywin]

Great to see how keen people are on an Umbar faction!

I for one would love to play as Umbar and trying to conquer Gondor (Role playing as a decendant of Castamir or someone with a little Black Numenorean blood taking back what is rightfully theirs) but I never liked the idea of doing this with a bunch of ol' sea dogs. There fore I came up with the following idea:

Kingdom of Umbar Concept
In Numenorian/Dunedain history, Umbar has had great importance. After the Downfall of Numenor, it almost could be considered the 'Third' Exiled Kingdom (although we have no evidence that it was a Kingdom and it certainly couldn't be considered an 'Exile' state lorewise, but you see what I'm getting at).

I had an idea that an Umbar faction could be similar to the Eriador faction in the current version of the game. It could start with units similar to what Umbar’s AOR units are now (corsair rabble type units). If the player could achive certain set goals such as conquering certain provinces and achieving a certain level of prosperity, Umbar could ‘upgrade’ to a ‘Dunadain Kingdom’ (I use the term Dunadain loosely) and its roaster could change to a more Dunadain/Black Numenorian style. I personally feel that this should follow the sort of Western European look that Gondor and Arnor have but mixed with a good dose of Haradrim influence. The result could be a medieval Spanish sort of look (which itself had heavy Arabic influences).

The potential ‘Kingdom of Umbar’ roaster could include:
- Knights/Barons of Umbar/Morardai (Heavy Cavalry, although Infantry may be more appropriate)
- Umbar Marines (Longbows with short sword and hand axes for melee)
- Morardai Squires (Sword and shield, Chainmail, Medium infantry)
- Hinterland Sergeants (Halberdiers or Pikemen)*
- Hollow Steel Marksmen (Elite unit with pavaises/shields on their backs, very powerful)**
- Umbar City Watch (Spear and shield militia or pavaise crossbows)
- Haradrim Levies (Light skirmishers)
- Haradrim Raiders (Horse Archers)

All of these units (apart from any Haradrim and original Corsair units) should have small numbers and long recriutment/replenishment time.

* I know alot of you are anti-pike partisans, however I feel there is an argument for a pike unit due to Harads use of cavalry. Lorewise, the men of the Umbar 'basin' would have wanted to counter this threat. I do personally favour Halberds though.

** I always liked the idea of the Hollow Steel 'technology' surviving somehow. Logically, an area with Black Numenorean roots could have preserved this 'technology' (as a family heirloom for example).

As a side note on the conversation regarding wood supply in Umbar. I always envisioned the 'hinterland' around Umbar as relatively fertile (due to the low mountains some miles behind the city providing a large amount of rainfall). This 'hinterland' could have estates and plantations owned by petty fuedal Barons (the establishment of these plantations could be prerequisite for upgrading the faction). Although, I like to imagine that a great deal of wood is supplied via trade with the Haradrim of the Far South.

Sorry for the waffle. Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Beregond]

The current Castamiri Kaΐnuheen concept looks almost identical to the Serpent Guard, other than that I like it a lot. I know it's just a concept but I really hope they aren't influenced too heavily from that image. I'm not a huge fan of PJ's interpretation of Umbar but the mod is based visually on the movie so no point in straying from that now.

I'd advise against using Merlkir's concepts for TLD mod. TA already uses many of them, and not without some 'tensions'

[Makrell]

DAC-submod Umbar faction

Figured id show some of this as we already have an umbar faction and AFAIK The mod folk can use as much of submods as they like, unless KK want to go in another direction wiht this faction

[Lord Tywin]

@Makrell

Are those screens from the realsed version of DAC or the up and coming version? Does Umbar have its own archers (if they are shown and i've missed them, sorry)?

Sorry to detract from the topic at hand but those units look EXACTLY how i'd imagine Umbarians to look as per my post above.

[Makrell]

@Makrell

Are those screens from the realsed version of DAC or the up and coming version? Does Umbar have its own archers (if they are shown and i've missed them, sorry)?

Sorry to detract from the topic at hand but those units look EXACTLY how i'd imagine Umbarians to look as per my post above.

These are form unreleased version but If the great kong ask for them im sure something can be done, im sure DAC will be released before TATW with umbar anyway
And these are not alll the units so im sure they have some frm of archers

[Hross]

There's a lot of ideas here to make Umbar into something more like Harad, or something heavily regimented. But both the lore and the films disagrees with this. Personally I think what makes Umbar more exciting is the fact that it isn't going to be another armoured dreadnought of evil men. Instead it will be a naval raiding faction of pirates- which is after all the entirely based on the lore. The upper elements of Umbar society like that in the OP is meant to represent some of these heavy regiments you are discussing. But an over-emphasis on that and too much borrowing from Harad is really going to compromise the identity of this faction both from a gameplay point of view and in the respect of the lore.

No disrespect to Squeeky, I love her to bits (and I'm a member of DaC) but KK is unlikely to use her units due to the lower quality in comparison to the ones in game. Also I can't see why he would be motivated to include something that is so contrary to lore- as I said above.

For instance, NONE of you have mentioned any ideas for ships- and that is exactly what Umbar was all about.

[Makrell]

There's a lot of ideas here to make Umbar into something more like Harad, or something heavily regimented. But both the lore and the films disagrees with this. Personally I think what makes Umbar more exciting is the fact that it isn't going to be another armoured dreadnought of evil men. Instead it will be a naval raiding faction of pirates- which is after all the entirely based on the lore. The upper elements of Umbar society like that in the OP is meant to represent some of these heavy regiments you are discussing. But an over-emphasis on that and too much borrowing from Harad is really going to compromise the identity of this faction both from a gameplay point of view and in the respect of the lore.

No disrespect to Squeeky, I love her to bits (and I'm a member of DaC) but KK is unlikely to use her units due to the lower quality in comparison to the ones in game. Also I can't see why he would be motivated to include something that is so contrary to lore- as I said above.

For instance, NONE of you have mentioned any ideas for ships- and that is exactly what Umbar was all about.

Well for ships ill say they should be the best ships all around IMO in dac we are actually making their top tier ships have the ability to move in deep water s they can move to the farthest reach of the sea.
Anyhow IMO the evil men is not overarmored, harad and the other southern evil factions dont have that.

BUT DAC is focusing on the lore correctly fact that Umbar most likely is made up off a harad/southron common folk and a black numenorean elite.
The corsairs is simpl.y haradrim/suthrons who excell at ships and piracy

[Lord Tywin]

I think some of the ideas here are excellent, but I take Hross's point. Alot of these ideas, including my own, would really be more suited to an Umbar sub-mod, set in an earlier time frame than the War of the Ring.

In this setting, an Umbar faction would need a lot of naval power and a handful of nautically themed light/ranged/skirmisher units (stiffend with a few elite heavy units and Haradrim mercenaries).

I guess we have to remind ourselves what Umbar is at the time of the War of the Ring not what it was in the annals of Dunadain history. Specifically a lawless City State which is a nest of piracy with a long and engrained history of hatred towards Gondor. There fore any warfare would be oritated towards raiding and pillaging rather than territorial expansion and development.

With that in mind, the development of a balenced land army needs to be reconsidered and infact the imbalemce of the Umbar faction in comparison to other faction's roasters could be the biggest aid in making it a lore accurate faction (for the purposes of this thread at least).

As regards ships, it think that what Hross has suggested fits nicely, but perhaps some ancillaries to reduce ship construction costs could facilitate the naval advantage.

(p.s I do agree with Makrell regarding Umbar though and cannot wait to play DAC's interpretation of the faction!)

[Makrell]

DAC Umbar does as you who are deep in the mod follow the line of trying to recreate a great numenorean kingdom through events and such

[Hero of the West]

don't know if umbar would work very well AI wise.. naval warfare and attacking by navy isn't AI's strongest point..

[Hermes Trismegistos]

I guess no one talked about ships because they just don't seem that interesting without real naval battle. I mean you have basically weaker but cheaper and stronger but more expensive ships, does anyone really think beyond that when composing a fleet?

Nevertheless, their was of course also a fleet part in my concept wich I left out because my post was already long enough.

Umbar in my version has basically three kinds of ships:

First the actual corsair ships, designed for piracy. Small, but quick, always at "war" with the rest of the world. Their captains get letters of marque from the council who gets part of the profit in exchange.

Second the merchants ships, much larger (at least some of them, their size can vary very much), but slower and not really designed for fighting. Still their crews are battle-hardened as well and they are usually full of hidden weapons to strike when opportunity arrives. In times of war they are conscripted (as well as the corsairs) and take additional squads of mercenaries as fighting crew instead of their usual load, so that they can carry a lot of manpower into a naval battle.

Third there is the war fleet of huge galleys (like the ones that Aragorn captures with the army of the dead) with a lot of slaves as oarsmen and a fighting crew of mercenaries. They are well equipped for both boarding and ramming and have their own secluded war harbour and are only used in times of war by command of the council.

[Makrell]

I think the crucial ppart of the sheep would be AN EXTREME movement points for all of them, maybe double of gondor. These guy shsould be able to go to gondor, sacka city and back in 1-2 turns

[Beregond]

There's a lot of ideas here to make Umbar into something more like Harad, or something heavily regimented. But both the lore and the films disagrees with this. Personally I think what makes Umbar more exciting is the fact that it isn't going to be another armoured dreadnought of evil men. Instead it will be a naval raiding faction of pirates- which is after all the entirely based on the lore. The upper elements of Umbar society like that in the OP is meant to represent some of these heavy regiments you are discussing. But an over-emphasis on that and too much borrowing from Harad is really going to compromise the identity of this faction both from a gameplay point of view and in the respect of the lore.

From the movie perspective of view, yes, I agree entirely. But there is nothing in the lore considering Umbar's military. Just the name Corsairs, which we can speculate about what it means till the end of the world.

Personally, I do not see the problem with heavily armoured juggernaut. The only evil faction with armour is Isengard, and prob Rhun a bit. And having coastal based faction with the elites of heavy infantry (I think it would be appropriate to make their elites AOR coastal areas) and one or two units of good cavalry is pretty fun. I don't argue that the basic troops should represent the Corsair rubble. And may be there is the confusion of words. When I said that the core units of Umbar should be heavy inf, I meant 3rd-4th tier units, kind of like the upper elements of Umbar society you mentioned, Hross

Anyway, I will post the roster later as promised, even if you (and prob KK) had already made up your mind about what this faction should be like

[Hross]

From the movie perspective of view, yes, I agree entirely. But there is nothing in the lore considering Umbar's military. Just the name Corsairs, which we can speculate about what it means till the end of the world.

That's not true, and several of my units quote or reference the lore. Not even Rohan is all that well-described if you speculate like that

Personally I think Mordor and Rhun are juggernauts despite having lower tier units that are skirmishers. Even Harad is pretty hardhitting with those Mumakils and the heavy line infantry

[Lord Tywin]

As long as any heavier units were restricted by hight cost, small unit numbers, long recruitment time and long replenishment time I forsee no risk with Umbar becoming a armoured jugganaught.

On a more practicle note, here are some ideas for some Ancillaries/Retinue/Traits and some ideas for buildings:

Traits/Ancillaries
- Lord of the Quays (Title): Navel construction cost reduction
- Merchant Prince (Title): Trade increase
- Hollow Steel Bow (Ancillary): Increased prestiege (I would love this to mean you could recriut Hollow Steel Bowmen/Marines/Marksmen)
- Haradrim Squire (Retinue): Reduced cost of Hardrim units/mercs
- Master Ship-Wright (Retinue): Reduced naval recruitment cost and/or time
- Whaling Fleet (Ancillary): Increased trade and/or less % hance of food shortage
- Sea Hawk (Retinue): Incresed prestiege
- Antique Harpoon (Ancillary): Increased prestiege
- Stone Mason (Retinue): Reduced construction costs or time
- Steward (Retinue): Increased farming income
- Master of the Harbour (Title or Retinue): Increased public order

Buildings
- Sea-Throne of the Castimiri (Increased Public Order and bonus to Marine units trained)
- Quays of Umbar (Extra Building Slots for Ships)
- Ship-Wrights Guild (Reduction in Ship Building Costs or Time)
- Terraced Estates (Increased Farming Income)
- Plantations (Increased Trade and Reduced cost for ships)
- Irrigated Estates/Waterways (Increased Farming Income)
- Timber Yard (Increased Trade and Extra Building Slot for Ships)
- Caravan Market (Increased Trade)
- Mariners Guild (Reduced Cost/Time hiring Marine Units)

Slightly premature i'm sure, but just my thoughts.