Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 32 of 32

Thread: Building suggestions (comments, etc)

  1. #21

    Default Re: Building suggestions (comments, etc)

    First, some general notes and thoughts:

    1) In TnS, Anumbar (haradrian city west of Umbar) seems to be loosing trade income when I upgrade it's market from lvl 3 to lvl 4. Haven't tested this with other cities yet.

    2) How about allowing Dunedain to hold jousts in the top lvl of their stables?

    3) About the Nomadic Camp and Town of Tents I suggested earlier. How about having them as a Rhun variant of haradrian caravan buildings?

    Also, here are some improved descriptions for existing buildings: the farms.

    lvl 1

    Pastures (all factions)
    Some of the main advantages of cattle-breeding over agriculture are the lesser dependence on soil fertility and the comparatively little amount of working-power. Instead of the many hands required for plowing, sowing and harvesting, a couple of herders with their dogs are more than enough to take care of their community's pigs, cows, sheep and goats.
    However, output will be rather low when compared to the surface used, and large herds are therefore mostly suited for sparcely populated areas with little infrastructure. A shift to agriculture will be inevitable if this region's population is to increase significantly.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    lvl 2

    Cottages (all factions)
    Most cottages of this size are run by a single family, who, with a couple of workers, cultivate the fields, and usually maintain some cattle, orchards and vegetable gardens to enrich their diets and prevent food shortage in the event of a bad harvest.
    The farmers themselves are simple people, who are likely to live and die on their lands without ever seeing much of the world. They are the first to suffer during dark times, and yet rarely appear in tales about great people and their deeds. Even their most well-meaning lords have a tendency to belittle them, even though it is their unending hard work and their harvests that will ensure the food supply of their people.
    Especially newer farms usually bring in much smaller crops, since many rocks and rootstocks still remain in the ground, and the farmers have yet to adapt to the particularities of their land. But over time, the local farming techniques will surely improve.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    lvl 3

    Productive Farmlands (Dunedain)
    In wars and other hardships, the dunedain of Gondor and Arnor have always protected their vassals and smallfolk to the very best of their abilities. As a consequence, many areas under their influence have become peaceful and idyllic places whoose inhabitants, mostly farmers, have tended to their fields without worries for generations. Although their conversation topics may rather... unsophisticated, their knowledge about the many subtleties of agriculture, such as the crops suited for a specific soil, what plants should or shouldn't be grown next to eachother, or how to attract or deter certain kinds of insects is unrivaled in all realms of man. Through meticulous three-field rotation and alternance of various crops, each draining and enriching the soil in a different way, they have over years created some of the most fertile fields in all of Middle-Earth.

    Irrigated Farmlands (Harad)
    Arid lands do not necessarily lack fertility. Often enough, when rain finally falls for the first time in several years, even the desert itself will suddenly turn green for one or two short days. As a consequence, if water were to fall regularly on dry soil, logic dictates that the ground's fertility should manifest itself just as much.
    The dams and ditches needed to divert water from nearby streams and rivers onto the fields require much working-power, and are a project that not all communities can hope to realise. Those who can, however, or those who receive help from their lord, will reap in the reward and benefit from harvests they would never even have dreamed of before. They should however keep in mind that irrigation is a complex technology, and isn't just about flooding fields. If not done right, salination will gradually render the soil dead and barren for generations to come.

    Communal Farmlands (others)
    Communal Farmlands are fields that are not farmed by a single family, but by an entire village. While such systems also exist in more advanced cultures such as Harad and the Reunited Kingdom, they take on a whole new meaning in tribal societies, or those who still remember their tribal days.
    In areas where war and misery constanly threaten the ordinary folk, there is little use in pretending that someone ''owns'' a specific parcel of land. What does he know about whether or not the next raid or disaster will chase him away and force him to settle elsewhere? Rather than clinging to one's own parcel and fending for oneself, it is more adviseable for all able-bodied men to help eachother and tend to the fields together. While farmers of other cultures would consider this a terrible blow to their pride and self-esteem, the advantages are obvious. The available working-power increases exponentially, and many tasks that would otherwise require much time are completed in the blink of an eye. Agricultural knowledge is shared and spread, and the cohesion of the entire community as a whole is greatly increased.
    ---------------------------------------------------------

    lvl 4

    Extensive Farmlands (Dunedain)
    For countless years, the dunedain had been a dwindling people. Wars, pleagues and general decay had taken their toll on their realms, and even today, their population is much lower than it was in their best days. Only after king Elessar's ascencion to the throne did this decline come to an end. Encouraged by the sudden peace and prosperity, many families settled in areas that had been abandonned centuries ago. Brushlands became fams once more, forests gave way to orchards, and many swamps and marshes were turned into arable land.
    But this work is far from over, and its completion will take many more years and much effort from the people and their rulers. Some also say that the land should not be exploited so intensively, but such is the price of progress. Trees and woodland critters are unlikely to feed a nation, nor the soldiers who protect it.

    Estates (Harad)
    Estates are enormous farms that a normal family could never hope to manage. This explains why the local workers are almost exclusively slaves, who work their backs off under a scorching sun to keep an entire nation fed while being only one step away from starvation themselves.
    While estates require unimaginable amounts of working-power, getting your hands on so many slaves requires an equivalent sum of money. That is why they belong to the wealthiest men of Harad, people who also have the connections needed to disown smaller families and landowners and thus claim the best farmlands for themselves. Such powerful people usually being politically active, it is not rare for them to use the output of their estates as a political tool by manipulating food prices to either soothe, stir up or coerce their fellow citizens.

    Rural Settlements (others, I already suggested this one in an earlier post)
    Vast areas in Middle-Earth are only sparsely populated. Travellers can walk, or even ride for days without seeing a living soul. The inhabitants of these lands, however, don't necessarily view this as a bad thing: there is room to come and go as they wish, room to settle down on a promising piece of land and live there as well as fate will permit.
    Cities are much smaller in these parts than the cramped, noisy and hectic places in the self-proclaimed 'civilized' parts of the world. They are usually centered around some trading hub or the court of an important lord, while most of the population lives in smaller farms and villages, located in the middle of nowhere, as people would say who are not used to such distances. But whatever they say, if farmers are few and land is abundant, why shouldn't they spread out and make the best of it?

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    THE END
    ---------------------------------------------------------

    The last levels could also have some other bonuses, to reflect their significance for their respective cultures: +law for estates, +health for rural settlements, and additional farming for extensive farmlands.

    I also wanted to include some buildings for Khand and Far-Harad (Oasis Agriculture and Nomadic Pastures), to explain why agriculture is severely limited in these regions, but the team seemed not too fond of them, since they would make the building browser a little confusing. Just to make sure, I'll explain my intention one more time:
    Farms currently have 4 levels, with a lvl 5 in Minas Tirith, the Pelennor Fields. If the fifth lvl were to receive a variant for Harad (Oasis) and Rhun (Nomads), these lvl 5 farms could be present at the start of the game in all settlements that should get them. Since they are already lvl 5, they can't be upgraded, which fits their purpose just fine. Bonuses would be those of a lvl 1 farm.
    I have tested this by giving a second Pelennor Fields to Pelargir. Since Pelargir couldn't grow beyond lvl 4 (city size), the Pelennor Fields didn't appear in the building browser. All other farms did, however, and were marked as already having been built. I don't know if this still counts as messing up the building browser. Of course, it's up to the team to decide if they want these buildings or not.

    EDIT: Omg, text wall!
    Last edited by The Sloth; November 11, 2011 at 07:22 AM.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Building suggestions (comments, etc)

    Here is another batch of improved building descriptions: barracks for Dunland and Rhun, although I suppose they could be just as true for Rohan and Dale, and with small changes, for all remaining factions.

    lvl 1: Muster Field
    For now, this settlement has nothing remotely resembling any military infrastructure. Instead, chieftains from neighbouring towns will send their envoys here, who will hold speeches about duty, honour and wealth in an attempt to recruit able-bodied men.
    The people who heed their call and gather on the muster field are young, eager, and green. Their equipment consists of little more than hunting spears and bows, makeshift wooden shields and lumberjack axes, and they possess no battle experience other than some quick advice from their recruiter.
    If asked, each of them will confidently state his intentions of defeating some ennemy hero or lord, but this settlement will definitela have to improve it's military infrastructure before it's soldiery can hope to perform such a feat.

    lvl 2: Gathering of Warriors
    While this settlement still won't sustain any noteworthy military infrastructure, the envoys sent here have far higher expectations of this place than of most other backwater towns. Indeed, volunteers are far more numerous here, and a good portion of them has gathered some battle experience in previous squirmishes and border disputes. Their equipment, always kept in good shape, is better suited for combat than for work on the fields or in the woods, and, although they are by no means elite, these semi-professional warriors have every intention to fight to the best of their ability.
    The fighters from this town will now no longer embarass themselves in battle, but even greater improvements to the infrastructure will have to be made if they are to reach their full potential.

    lvl 3: Chieftain's Barracks
    A chieftain's barracks are usually found in the same building complex than his own quarters. Which is no surprise, since the warriors that live here are their chieftain's pride, his aides and bodyguards. They help him oversee the lands he governs and keep law and order in the city.
    These men are fine professional soldiers, fred from trivial worries such as farmwork, and equipped with adequate weapons and armor from the local weaponsmith (who runs his business almost exclusively for them). Furthermore, they preserve the military knowledge of their people. Young recrues will look up to them and greatly benefit from their experience. Their training is a harsh one, but bruises now are still better than death later. And, coupled with improved equipment, it will allow even younger fighters to perform well in battle from the get-go.

    NOTE: Could also provide a law bonus.

    lvl 4: Keep
    A keep, with it's imposing size and large, forbidding walls, is a sight to behold, especially when one is aware that he is looking at the military center of a large territory, the last line of defense of the people who live here.
    Every corner of a keep serves a martial purpose. In the courtyard, seasoned veterans train and drill their fellow warriors, teaching them the tricks of the trade that will help them become veterans in turn. In the cellars, quartermasters oversee the stored weapons, provisions and other supplies that will provide a smooth course for the next campaign. In their chambers, war leaders brood over landmaps and discuss all kinds of strategic matters.
    Whoever becomes a target of this finely oiled machinery of war better be ready for what's coming for him!

    NOTE: Could also improve the supplies of generals, and grant them traits and ancillaries related to war.

    Thoughts?

  3. #23
    Thangaror's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Ducatus Saxonia
    Posts
    1,335

    Default Re: Building suggestions (comments, etc)

    Nice work, but I'm not sure whether "keep" is an appropriate term. It's too medieval and castle-ish. You might use a related term, like fortress, citadel or even castle.
    But these terms don't really fit the barbarian culture, too, more suited for Dúnedain and Dale.

    It could be used if FATW ran on Medieval and there were indeed Castles on the map. I guess there's some sort of fortified place in most Gondorian cities, but I really can't imagine the rural Dunlendings setting up a keep somewhere.
    Also I don't think that a keep is actually a good place to train soldiers.

    I agree it's somewhat stupid to rank the barracks by simply putting some tag in front, as it is done now (e.g. Captain's Stables, King's Stables; though City Barracks, Army Barracks is ok), and it's hard to come up with good and somewhat unique names.

    So, here are my suggestions, though lvl 4 is debatable. But see explanation below.

    lvl 1: Muster Field
    lvl 2: Training Grounds
    lvl 3: Barracks (Northmen) or Warriors' Hall (Barbarians)
    lvl 4: Warriors' Quarter (Northmen), Warriors' Camp (Barbarians)


    Also the thing is, you don't really need "barracks" to train soldiers.
    You need the arms, the men and an open field, and a place for the men to sleep. Barracks are needed to maintain a garrison within a town.
    So, if I were to train soldiers, I'd do what Caesar did and what is still done today: Built a fort! A small city of it's own, with special rules to strengthen discipline and cohesion and without distractions.
    Though in the case of Middle-earth this "caste-thinking" is somewhat weird. A Warriors Quarter is ok for a somewhat municipal faction like Dale. But also almost every name feels wrong for the Rohirrim, I've to admit. Dunno, they're simply warriors by nature. I feel that they don't need barracks or stables at all, they just blow horns and ride to war. xD

    On a further note, to maintain a militia, the men have to practice regularly. So I suggest to add to lvl 3 Barracks a line like "To maintain blablabla, all capable men from this town have to participate in the monthly drill."
    Last edited by Thangaror; November 06, 2011 at 05:19 AM.
    I would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Building suggestions (comments, etc)

    Well, the good thing is that Tolkien was never very specific about the living habits of most people, even less when they were evil. So as long as we think logically, we have any freedom we want.

    Besides, why would barbarian cultures not have any fortified places? Just think about the celts and dacians of antiquity, or the barbarians that followed the fall of Rome. As I see it, Barbarians and Northmen would have such fortifications for the simple reason that they'd need them:

    - With all the bad blood between Dunland and their neighbours, I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't be raided too from time to time, leading to a need for somewhere to run to. (And if there is any natural ressource abundant in Dunland, it's rocks, right?)
    - As for Rhun, seeing how the wainriders invaded Gondor with their entire families, I'd suppose they were driven out of Rhun by stronger tribes, which indidates some degree of tribal warfare. And men of darkness are known for not beeing the friendliest of people.
    - Dale is located on the borders of the 'civilized' world. Extensive fortifications should be a no-brainer.
    - Don't know about Rohan either. The Rohirrim retreated to Helm's Deep, but that only indicates that the Hornburg was better than anything they had in Edoras, which doesn't tell us much. Since they're based on Anglo-Saxons, Aradan and MasterOfNone should know more about it, being the creators of Viking Age 2.

    The thing is that professional warriors in such societies would live close to their lord, normaly in what corresponds to the core buildings in RTW. That's where they'd train, live and sleep. My Chieftain's Barraks and Keep are abstractions of that, since it wouldn't be fair if these factions could recruit their troops in their core buildings.

  5. #25
    Thangaror's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Ducatus Saxonia
    Posts
    1,335

    Default Re: Building suggestions (comments, etc)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sloth View Post

    Besides, why would barbarian cultures not have any fortified places? Just think about the celts and dacians of antiquity, or the barbarians that followed the fall of Rome. As I see it, Barbarians and Northmen would have such fortifications for the simple reason that they'd need them:
    Of course they had fortifications, I do not doubt this.
    I simply don't like the term 'keep', because the picture I have in mind is a true medieval castle, like Dover Castle, the Tower of London or the castles along the Rhine in Germany. IMHO, the Rhine castles greatly resemble the castle ruins Bilbo saw on his journey through Rhudaur, but I don't think that the Dunlendings constructed (or were able to construct) such places and it clearly contradicts the nomadic and semi-nomadic nature of Rohirrim and Easterlings.

    Their castles would resemble pre-roman fortifications you might call 'hill-fort'. They were not like medieval castles and, from what I know, not even inhabited for most of the time and refuge castles predominantely, or had developed into fortified town (oppidum). If I were to design a Dunlendish/Beorning/Rohirrim fortification, it'd look like Maiden Castle or Old Sarum in southern England. And their castles were maybe of the motte-and-bailey type.

    I'm not an expert but afaik 'castles' as almost autarcic, small settlements of their own developed only after the barbarian migration. Before it was more like there was a city and within the city was the 'acropolis' or 'capitol' or however you might call it.

    - Dale is located on the borders of the 'civilized' world. Extensive fortifications should be a no-brainer.
    But they (the Dwarves, respectively) have the skills to build a stone castle AND it doesn't contradict their culture.

    - Don't know about Rohan either. The Rohirrim retreated to Helm's Deep, but that only indicates that the Hornburg was better than anything they had in Edoras, which doesn't tell us much. Since they're based on Anglo-Saxons, Aradan and MasterOfNone should know more about it, being the creators of Viking Age 2.
    Edoras is actually described in the books. It is surrounded by a "mighty wall, a dike and a (thorn?) hedge" (another thing PJ screwed up). I'm not at home and thus I don't have access to the English text.
    And the Hornburg of course was built by the Dúnedain.

    The thing is that professional warriors in such societies would live close to their lord, normaly in what corresponds to the core buildings in RTW. That's where they'd train, live and sleep. My Chieftain's Barraks and Keep are abstractions of that, since it wouldn't be fair if these factions could recruit their troops in their core buildings.
    Sure, that's how it used to be. But in a "barbarian" (aka Gaulish or German) army there were only a few professional, well-trained soldiers (the nobles and their guards as you said), and the greatest part of the army would consist out of conscripts.
    So if you have a larger, professional army (like Rome, Carthage or Gondor) the whole "live close to their lord" thing doesn't work any more. And though it might be realistic for Dunland to have a pretty crappy army, it is not for Dale and Rohan.
    I would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Building suggestions (comments, etc)

    I'm not sure I get your point, but I'll try to re-explain myself, using your arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thangaror View Post
    Before it was more like there was a city and within the city was the 'acropolis' or 'capitol' or however you might call it.
    This is what I had in mind when I wrote the last two levels. The problem is, like I said, that the 'capitol' would correspond to the RTW core building. The warriors' lodgings would be located in some wing of that building. For the description, I tried to stress the martial aspect in order to show that you're developping another aspect of the same building. Hill forts are not what I had in mind. I'm talking about some imposing structure on some hill in the middle of town. As time goes by and that city grows, that 'palace' would grow as well, becoming more complex and better fortified. That's what made me think of a 'keep'. This is not my native language, so I might miss some of the word's connotations, but keep sounded more generic than castle, fortress, stronghold or citadel (the intended lvl 4 for Harad and Dunedain, btw). If keep is no good, as long as it's only the term that causes issues, I couldn't care less if it's replaced with something more suitable.

    But in a "barbarian" (aka Gaulish or German) army there were only a few professional, well-trained soldiers (the nobles and their guards as you said), and the greatest part of the army would consist out of conscripts.
    So if you have a larger, professional army (like Rome, Carthage or Gondor) the whole "live close to their lord" thing doesn't work any more. And though it might be realistic for Dunland to have a pretty crappy army, it is not for Dale and Rohan.
    I took some artistic freedom there. This time, the problem is to explain what's happening in the game. In the late game, when you build these structures, most players will surely switch to more heavily equipped, experienced troups. So I thought I should try to somewhat explain that, so I went with the 'rich lord has a huge palace full of grizzled mass-murderers who will teach others to become like them'-approach. It's stretching the truth in a painfull way, but if we wanted to be realistic, we simply would have to skip the lvl 4 barracks. And I sure as hell won't play this game if I have to face Men at Arms with Axes of the Wolf or Easterling Warbands.
    As you say, barbarian armies would consist of a core of professionals and loads of tagg-alongs. But that was because anything more would have been 1) too expansive, and 2) too much of a bother. Training your troops would have been possible even for a barbarian warlord, at least in theory.

    As for the rest:

    I also picture Dunlendings as some kind of cavemen using pointed sticks and throwing rocks, but I always have to remind myself that they almost erradicated Rohan, and had one of it's strongest king starve to death while they feasted in Edoras. Tolkien depicted them in a dismissive way, but that shouldn't distract us from the facts.

    it clearly contradicts the nomadic and semi-nomadic nature of Rohirrim and Easterlings.
    Nomadic nature? Where does that come from?


    But they (the Dwarves, respectively) have the skills to build a stone castle AND it doesn't contradict their culture..
    I meant to say that Dale must have had fortifications, and good ones at that, or they wouldn't have lasted so long on the borders of the civilized world. Although Esgaroth seems to have been built almost entirely with wood... But that was Dale at it's weakest. Also, they're sure to have learned quite a few tricks about construction from their dwarven friends. Would be interesting to somehow include that exchange of technology, but I don't really know how.
    Last edited by The Sloth; November 08, 2011 at 11:30 AM.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Building suggestions (comments, etc)

    I've got another one, for Elves and possibly some other factions (not sure if I'm the first one with this idea):
    An "Eagle colony" in certain provinces in the Misty Mountains. Should work like the wonders in FATW, with some unusual bonuses:
    - an increase in sight radius of the provincial capital (not sure if possible)
    - a slight reduction of tradeable goods (like the tier 2 granary in EB; after all, those critters have to eat something and that'll be game as well as a "tribute" of livestock)
    - a small bonus to public order through law (if your lord has friends who can see everything and may eat you, it's probably a good idea to stick by the rules)
    - a set of traits or even ancillaries for the local governor and other FMs in the respective province.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Building suggestions (comments, etc)

    I'm afraid the only provinces *in* the Misty Mts are strongholds/forts, which get no buildings. However we can perhaps have a relevant trait for generals spending time there, with just the sight bonus, while they are in the fort.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Building suggestions (comments, etc)

    Reading through this thread I noticed many advocate for more "balanced" factions. I have no doubt that I am far too late to influence the mod in this direction; nevertheless I should like to weigh in my opinion:

    I would argue for decidedly unbalanced factions. As the game currently stands I am very happy with challenge provided by some of the less powerful factions. I hope there will be some very difficult to win with factions in the upcoming release. In particular I should love to se factions that are very difficult beyond the first ten turns or so. I find in most RTW mods that I play that around turn ten you will have built up the head of steam that will decide the rest of the game in your favor.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Building suggestions (comments, etc)

    Some factions will be easier than others, but the idea behind the scripts and AI-specific bonuses is that even the "easy" factions are medium/hard to play as.

    As for "being difficult beyond the first 10 turns", that's not that difficult to achieve. If we make some factions exceptionally hard, they will need more than 10 turns to turn the situation around. What's difficult is making the game non-linear (either progressively easier or progressively harder), which is generally how RTW works.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Building suggestions (comments, etc)

    Aradan how hard will it be, if possible at all, to make a building that spawn small rebelious armys in adjacent territories.

    something like a high end Cultist cruzade building that instigates nearby, non cultic factions, to spawn little cultic "revolts". This will be interesting when trying to affect the military estability of nearby factions that you wish to conquer without breaking alliances or ceasefire

  12. #32

    Default Re: Building suggestions (comments, etc)

    That's not possible. Buildings cannot be spawned without a script, which we don't use, and even if we did, it's not possible to have a building affect other provinces. Also, you cannot tie a revolt to specific rebel units.

    It's possible, however, to make cultic agents cause unrest in an enemy province and have the province go independant, which will make it easier to capture.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •