[Preview] The Roman Empire-Part I-Thematic Armies.

[paradamed]

Beautiful units!

[AnthoniusII]

As you can see by their heads and painted (non 3d) belts these models are our oldest ones.

[Tureuki]

Are their shields historically standard or there will be new varieties ? can we see them in action againts Pecheneg invaders ?

[AnthoniusII]

Our roman shield paterns are from:
Ospey and other publishings.
Historical infos.
Church frescos.

As explained many times in CBUR forum, our units use 1 shield patern per unit (or per upgrade).
That is because each vandon (battalion) used its division's main patern with diferend colour combinations.
Such color varieties you will see in Kontarati and Menaulati.
Units like
Scutati etc use diferent paterns per upgrade (and diferent shield types per era upgrade) to point that feature of one unit one patern.
I wish that we could use region spesific paterns but that would made the mod realy huge !!! our data has already a size of 2.2 Mbs and its 40% ready!
To see more visit CBUR Nikephorean army reforms part 1 [Thematic Armies preview !]
Its more detailed than here in TGC.
If you like copy it (with the texts) to you forum!

[ToonTotalWar]

Nice looking Romans +Rep mate

[AnthoniusII]

Shhhh we do not want the other factions to know...
Leif Erikson is gathering the Emperor's bodyguards. I think i saw one of them somewhere in CBUR camp.
Don't let other factions to know. We want to take them by suprice!

[AnthoniusII]

Great pic...See our latest consept in CBUR screenshots and feedpack thread.
When the "bodyguards" will finish you will see how close CBUR creations are.
For example compare our armored horses textures nade by Leif Erikson under our researching team instructions.

[idas]

about the existence in old fashioned way of helmets ( in greek / old roman style in 11th century)

The decorative crests over some Roman Byzantine helmets in some rare cases were indeed in a form like the older style of Greek / Roman form (ofcourse with possible differences)

you can see the example to the Tresure de la Cathedrale, Troyes , France, which is originally roman byzantine from the 11th century.

(you can see also clearer the picture of it to Man at Arms no 89, Byzantines armies 886-1118 , page 7 down picture, english version, Osprey)


to the curent preview see the left cavalary soldier's helmet.

so Roman Byzantines in 11th century, still use helmets with plume !!! (as also the fact is that have not survived many examples)

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(και στην ελληνικη εκδοση στην σελιδα 7 επισης Ο Βυζαντινος στρατος, Osprey, φαινεται καθαροτερα. δυστυχως δεν βρηκα καθαροτερη εικονα στο διαδικτυο προς μεταφορτωση )

[diez]

maybe there were used as ceremonial and such...but they were not the main helmet at the time.
also this picture depicts a scene of hunting.

[AnthoniusII]

Never mond our generals may have such helmets.
In the mean time the Horsemen of Doom are comming!
Leif Erikson [rep him here and not me] is behind that miracles (those wonderfull textures)!
UNIT is ready by 40% .
Ladies and Jentlemen the Horsemen of Doom..
Aka the Emperor's escort...


A spesial thanks to byzantineclibanophoroi for his exelent scetches became
our exelent quides!
A sample of his work!

[Wareg]

I've found an information about unit of elite Armenian infantry, they were protecting Basil II during battle of the Gates of Trajan. There is also an informaton that Bardas Fokas was leading Georgian infantry in battle of Abydos (989).
Do you know smomething about these units? Were they differently equipment from another ERE units? Will they be represented in TGC?

[AnthoniusII]

Basill II had three campaigns in the east the same time he faught in the balkans and Italy. The 1st was in Georgia that he became the successor of the Georgian Kingdom's throne. Georgian troops joined us symachoi (allies) to his army. His 2nd campaign was against new rivals of the throne that supported by greek millitary fammilies and Armenian nobles. In the end many Armenian nobles joined his army.
His 3rd campaign was against Arabs and then he took back several cities from them.
Basill II seamed that never trusted his own guards thank to the court politics he lived when he was under "protection" from Nikephorus Phokas and Ioannes Tzimiskes. It doeas not lool strange to us if he had georgian guards because when the new warriors arrived(vikings)he made then his personal troops something like his praetoreans.

[Wareg]

So will you add some ally Armenian/Georgian units or they were:
-too similary equipment to analogical ERE units
-too rarely/awhile in use
and adding them will make no sense?

[idas]

yes it is from a hunt scene. though there is no need for hunting to wear a plume helmet, if that was only a ceremonial one .
In most cases, for security reasons, when important high officers or emperors goes for hunting they usually wear their best equipment, as some times , by a faulse it was very possible to be hurt from some of their companions hunters. (emperor John II Komnenos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_II_Komnenos was accidentally infected by a poisoned arrow while out hunting and died)

please see the form of the whole helmet. it is not an ancient one (like those of ancient greeks or romans). except the plume.
this helmet is protecting the bigest part of the head but also the face in a modern (for the period) form.
it has not meaning to be such as only be a ceremonial one.

ceremonials weapons, are used perchaps to the palace area, and the difference with the modern ones is the usefull of them.
when an old ancient style form does not protect the body of a person as possible, then this form is not wearing more or perchaps still wearing in some ceremonies.
if a form was usefull this still be used.
to this case this is a modern (for its date )form that gives maximum protection.

it is possible to be weared by high officers or the emperor (at the other side of the same box, there is an emperor with a crown at his head)

i have read a lot of books speaking about pictures about the designing of them, but the 'experts' that reffered to some of those are not sure ,in other words --> they dont know, they made an hypothesis that it looks older style than that of its date but they do not describe why the picture is not refferd to its time looking.

without any argument usually they say ---> it is classicising in style , it represents possibly an ancient style etvc
but in clasic forms the helmets forms are looking different, instead of this !!!!
clasic forms indeed protect alot of the part of the head and face, but the looking form is different, this is an envolve of them.


the left one helmet has a plume, to the right one is not looking well as the hand holding the sword is at the posion at top of the helmet and hidden its up part, but the most possible is that the right helmet is without plume.[perchaps the left one with the plume is the officer, or has more offices than the right in picture.]
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this kind of helmet style form (or a slight similar) also exist to the Joshua Roll http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Roll (probably of the 10th century)
the problem with art historians is that they made hypothesis without evidence or proofs, and they do not see the simple, that in roman byzantine empire some forms evolve older ones or some others are new ones, or even some forms in some cases are foreign imported.


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so this kind of helmet existed, and it protect very much the face.


in Josua roll i have not see the plume , but the form of this style helmet is wearing by alot of sodiers. and they are foot sodiers. but as we see to the first picture is also be worn by cavalaryman (officers? or more)
also, perchaps there are some slight differences to the down part of the helmet (to the area around the cheeks), but i dont know if that is the difference between a foot soldiers and a cavalary one helmet, or if that the first picture's one is an evolve of that helmet we see on the foot soldiers.


now, if the josua rol reffered to an older fashion looking, then to the first picture --> to the Tresure de la Cathedrale, Troyes , France, which is originally roman byzantine from the 11th century, which also appeard those forms, this prooves that to the 11th cenury this form was still in use.
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conclusion
there also existed many many other forms in romano byzantine empire . to those picture are only one of them
romano byzantine empire is reach in forms and styling, and this for modders perchaps its more difficult as perchaps for some units needed extra designing, though in the other you have alot of varieties in forms and looking, so a mode can be more beautifull
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[i search for those more than 30 years and i have also written a book about tsacones, =the medieval so called spartans and its social, military role and uniforms , submary http://zeusosx.deviantart.com/journal/INFO-239103680 ]
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[Wareg]

Is this picture connected with my post? Second warrior is Varangian, is any of 3 another Armenian/Georgian infantrymen?

[Wareg]

We may add them as AOR troops. Mostly Armenians that vould serv both Romans and Saracens.

That's good news, thanks for answer.

[NikeBG]

about the existence in old fashioned way of helmets ( in greek / old roman style in 11th century)

Funny, just the same day that this post was made, I had posted something similar in the dev forum, among other things, with the description "Byzantine crown-helms (93 - the helm of Constantine the Great from coins, 94 - the helm of the Byzantine emperors in the V-VI c., 95 - the helm of the Byzantine emperor from the end of the X c. according to the Bamberg silk)". But, as Anthonius said, those things are most likely ceremonial and only for the high-ranking officers (i.e. those who are likely to stay out of the immediate battle).

[AnthoniusII]

Yes its kind unlogical to think that such helmets were used in battles.
1st we have church freskos that show simple battle helmets.
2nd we know that after Tzimeskes some high rank officials added masks on their battle helmets.
3rd Basill II's desciption shows an Emperor with minimalistic kind of apearence but Basill was the exeption.
4th We know that in middle 10th century helmets with moldings apeared.
Remember though that simple casis helmets remained in use for long after though.
You will see some varietions of helmets for Emperors and heirs plus for captains and generals after the creation of Vasilikoi Anthropoi and Athanatoi units.

[Basileus Antiochus]

so this unit has a mace and a sword, or is the mace only for decoration???

[AnthoniusII]

so this unit has a mace and a sword, or is the mace only for decoration???

Vasilikoi Anthropoi (this guy is one of them) and Aristocratae use swords and their maces are decorative.
Scholarii,Hikkanati and Athanati use maces and axes and their swords are decorative.
It has to do with two issues:
Unit ballance
Realistic apearence.
All these warriors used all kind of melee weapons such swords, axes and maces.
We choosed to have them on the models to emfisise to that but for gameplay ballance we choosed some of them to use one kind only.
Axes and maces are armor piercing weapons and Romans would have to many units with that abillity (like Pechenegs).
With their armor superiority (Pechenegs are lighter equipted) Romans would be imposible to defeated.
So we serve both historical accuracy and gameplay the same time.