[HISTORICAL ISSUE] - Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

[DobroVece]

No problem, but peacefull discussion with a guy who claims that serbs defended themselves from an Avar invasion (!?!?!?!?!) is not very possible.

You are the same when you claim that, like 7 Croats defeated 100000 Turks, so you are ideal for each other. But not here. You have dev. group, fan group, so go for it.

[matija191]

You are the same when you claim that, like 7 Croats defeated 100000 Turks, so you are ideal for each other. But not here. You have dev. group, fan group, so go for it.

where did I claim such nonsense....as far as I know, libel is criminal offense.

[DobroVece]

where did I claim such nonsense....as far as I know, libel is criminal offense.

Not literally, but you had your moments. Anyhow, that is not the point, this point is this is not the place. You have groups, PMs, so go for it.

And I just saw what happened, I suggest you work it out before all goes to hell. I'm not taking any sides here, I'm telling you that you two act like children right now, and I want to see it over.

In other words: mir, mir, mir, niko nije kriv, ruka ruci i tako to!

[Hrobatos]

must agree with man above, it is incredibly stupid to become blood enemies for a stupid reason like did Serbia had 1500 knights... very stupid from both of you

[Tureuki]

Is there any descriptions of outlook of the Turkish soldiers from early periods in western sources ?(14th-15th centuries)

[NikeBG]

There was not 20 000(or 30 000 whatever) Janissaries in that times so fail, numbers of Sipahis(and probably Azabs) also looks exaggeration.

edit: with the 15 000 each its mean Qapukulu Sipahis ? if yes, then

Salim Necati is a Turkish historian from the early 20th century, it seems (unless Google's misleading me), so I obviously can't check his arguments and sources. If you could, it would be interesting.

The are a couple questions I would ask you: What is the evidence for cannon at Nicopolis? I've heard fragmentary evidence for them being used at Kosovo in 1389 but nothing concrete. There isn't anything to definitely suggest the Ottomans used cannon until the Siege on Constantinople in 1422.

As I said, the reference given is to Necati, which I can't check.
As for your other points - I agree, I hadn't thought about them (the number of the janissaries in particular) and they do seem logical. At least in the part that the army couldn't have been near 100 000 (which still doesn't mean it must've been 10 000 plus 5000 Serbs).

[Tureuki]

There is no logic in these numbers, I don't know why that guy gave these numbers and is there a source for that, I even couldn't find enough info about him, just seen few books which is also printed in the military, I found a bioghrapy also, that guy's surname is Tacan right ? then he was a high class general and Ground forces commander and don't have history education , whatever , Halil İnalcik says there was 24 146 registered Qapukulu in 1528, its include all Qapukulu you know not only Janissaries, according to period sources(like Koçi Beg) there was around 95 000 sipahis at the beginning of the 17th century in the whole regions, probably it was around 70-80 000 in the 1528.

[Praetorian1]

Has anybody mentioned the 1480 siege of Rhodes?? an OUTSTANDING defence by the badley outnumbered knights against ottomans. Apart from their capture of Rhodes in 1309, the knights fought 3 bloody sieges by saracens & fended off 2 Not of them. The 1st was in 1444 when Rhodes was besieged by a massive fleet by the sultan of Egypt, the 2nd was an Ottoman siege of 70,000 Ottomans against 500 knights & roughly 3000 brothers & other members of the order under Grand Master Pierre d'Aubusson. Before surrendering Rhodes in the 1522 (2nd ottoman siege) the outnumbered knights managed to slaughter 10s of 1000s of Ottomans, so much that Suleiman was impressed & let them go with arms & colors. We must not forget that the Knights of st.John never numbered more than 500-700 knights & 5000 - 7000 brothers & other members & managed to win some great conflicts against staggering numbers & formidable opponents. Almost each time they fought against Turks, Egyptians or Moors they were heavily outnumbered in both land & naval battles.

I'm really glad that this mod is gonna have them

[saneel]

cool story bro

[Tommygunz]

It's not in the timeframe but the greatest defeat of the Ottomans happened last night in Istambul.



Very sorry for off topic but I saw the thread and couldn't resist
Don't be mad pls

[Bagatyr]

It's not in the timeframe but the greatest defeat of the Ottomans happened last night in Istambul.



Very sorry for off topic but I saw the thread and couldn't resist
Don't be mad pls

rep + .Cheers i watch it was great game .I was so happy when saw how Croatia was wining the game .Even drunk the how bottol of rakija from joy . Bravo ynaci !

[Hrobatos]

I was happy as well! in order to celebrate it I got drunk, but thats another story, main thing is that we have avenged our defeat at Euro 2008

[Tureuki]

Croats deserved it, we're all expecting that defeat

[SpyrosM91]

hmm hmm.....

i don't want to be the bad guy here.... but don't go any further....

[2Shy]

I don't know if you know it, but for the ordinary spammer you are like Bin Laden or Husein !
Feel free to delete this comentary ( I know it's offtopic ).

[uanime5]

No one seems to have mentioned George Kastrioti Skanderbeg, an Albanian who fought a guerilla war against the Ottoman Empire with the League of Lezhë between 1444 and 1479.

Skanderbeg fought 26 battles against the Ottomans which included the following:

Battle of Torvioll / Lower Dibra (1444): Skanderbeg with an army of 15,000 defeated Ali Pasha's army of 25,000-40,000. The Albanians had 4,000 men dead and wounded, while the 8,000 to 22,000 Turks were killed.

Battle of Otonetë (1446): Skanderbeg with an army of 5,000 defeats part of the Ottoman's 15,000 cavalry (Mustafa Pasha split his 15,000 cavalry into two groups but it's unknown how many were in each group).

First Battle of Oranik (1448): Skanderbeg's army of 6,000 versus Mustafa Pasha's army of 15,000 (the Venetians urged the Ottomans to attack Albania but didn't send troops). Result: Ottomans lost 3,000 troops, and Mustafa Pasha was captured and ransomed.

Sieges of Krujë (1450, 1466, 1467): the Ottomans tried to take Krujëbut failed. After Skanderbeg died the Ottomans were able to capture it in 1478 after a year long siege.

Battle of Albulena / Ujëbardha (1457): Skanderbeg's army of 8,000-10,000 versus the Ottoman's army of 50,000-80,000. Skanderbeg convinced the Ottomans that he had been defeated then attacked the Ottoman's camp with a surprise attack. Result:the Ottomans suffered 15,000-30,000 casualties, the number of Albanian casualties is unknown.

[Tureuki]

I'm not well informed about the Ottoman-Albanian clashes but I can easily say numbers in Battle of Albulena clearly exaggerated, Isak Beg was just a simple frontier Akinji commander there is no way he can muster 50-80 000 men, even 10 000 men is not much plausible.

edit: Its most likely valid in most of the other clashes too.

[Wallachian]

Yeah you're right. The numbers may not be as high, but surely there were numerically inferior armies that defeated more powerful ottoman armies. So they can be classed in the list of great defeats, but i wouldn't put them at the top of it.

[Diodredai]

Don't know if it's already been mentioned in the thread, but: The Siege of Eger (Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Eger_%281552%29 )

Basically, what happened was Ottoman forces (numbering anywhere from 35,000 to 60,000 by some estimates) besieged the castle of Eger, defended by Hungarian forces and mercenaries (numbering by some estimates from 1,000 to 2,300).

"Despite the difference in troop numbers, Eger's strong walls and the high morale of its defenders allowed the fortress to withstand five major assaults and continuous cannonfire (excluding the ones stuck in the walls of the stronghold, almost 12,000 cannonballs landed inside the fortress before the siege ended).
The fortress was defended by 2,100-2,300 people, a mixture of professional soldiers, insurgent peasants and a few dozen women. Among the approximately 1,530 combat-ready personnel there were only a handful of foreign mercenaries: Dobó had hired six cannonmasters from Germany in order to make the most efficient use of Eger's artillery. The defenders were commanded by István Dobó and his deputy István Mekcsey, who had assumed command in 1549. Another noted officer, famous in Hungarian literature and folklore, was Gergely Bornemissza [One of my ancestors! ]. He commanded a detachment of 250 hungarian infantry, however it was his skill with explosives that was to make this young officer's name. During the siege Bornemissza devised primitive but lethal grenades and powder keg sized bombs to use against the attackers as well as a water-mill wheel packed with gunpowder which he rolled into the Ottoman ranks. His secret lay in the gunpowder not simply exploding but sparking even more fire. He loaded these weapons with oil, sulfur and flint in order to shower the enemy with burning missiles.
The Ottomans had expected an easy victory, but the bravery of the castle's defenders, as well as Dobó's inspired leadership, resisted and repulsed repeated Ottoman assaults. Even after the storage tower containing 24 metric tons of black gunpowder exploded and caused extensive structural damage, the invaders still could not find a way into the castle compound. After 39 days of bloody, brutal and intense fighting the Ottoman army withdrew, beaten and humiliated. The defenders' losses amounted to about one third of their ranks, including those killed and permanently maimed in combat. Dobó lost both of his squires."

It siege was later romantized in novels, books and other forms of art. To this day it is regarded as one of the most heroic battles in Hungarian history.

[Tureuki]

Is there any info about those Ahmed and Ali Pashas ?

@Wallachian

No comment since as I said I'm not well informed about the issue, I have no idea who is Mustafa Pasha, Ali Pasha, Firuz Pasha, what I understand at least Albanians mainly clashed with neighboring Sanjak(minor province) governors and some frontier Akinji commanders.