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Thread: [HISTORICAL ISSUE] - Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

  1. #61
    saneel's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    I smell hatred and noonsense here at the same time.
    btw not all janisarry troops were muslims, some converted to Islam, other stayed in darkness. Its forbiden to convert with force. Man can only convert with his own hearth, not by the sword.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Quote Originally Posted by saneel View Post
    I smell hatred


    Quote Originally Posted by saneel View Post
    btw not all janisarry troops were muslims, some converted to Islam, other stayed in darkness.
    as far as I know till XIX century only muslims could take part in the regular army.

    Quote Originally Posted by saneel View Post
    Its forbiden to convert with force. Man can only convert with his own hearth, not by the sword.
    I think Saint George the New of Sofia and Methodii Draginov thought the same think...
    Last edited by Thinkerman; April 18, 2011 at 09:37 AM.
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  3. #63

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Quote Originally Posted by saneel View Post
    I smell hatred and noonsense here at the same time.
    btw not all janisarry troops were muslims, some converted to Islam, other stayed in darkness. Its forbiden to convert with force. Man can only convert with his own hearth, not by the sword.
    Well when your converting little boys that have almost no idea what christianity is then you dont need a sword...

  4. #64
    SpyrosM91's Avatar Despotes
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    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    YOU ARE GOING OFF-TOPIC!!!......IF YOU CONTINUE, POSTS WILL BE DELETED....
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  5. #65
    Erebus Pasha's Avatar vezir-i âzam
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    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    What do you guys think were the greatest defeats suffered by the Ottomans between 1345 and 1530? These are my favourites, there is no particular order

    1. The battle of Ankara 1402 . It was a great tactical and strategic victory by Timur against the armies of Bayezid the Thunder, who just 6 years earlier had defeated the European crusaders at Nicopolis. While the size of the two armies are disputable, modern day historians estimate the army of Timur was of about 140,000 and that of Bayezid of no more then 85,000. Timur had outmaneouvered Bayezid before the battle and gained the favourable ground. He had also negotiated withe Bayezid's Anatolian and Tatar allies to switch sides during the battle. The Ottomans attacked first but were beaten back by the arrows of the Timurid horse archers. Eventually, the tired and thirsty Ottomans were routed. Bayezid himself was captured after the battle and died within a few months as a prisoner at Timur's court. The crushing victory of the Timurids resulted in the Ottoman Interregnum, civil war and postponed the fall of Constantinopole for 50 years.
    2. The first siege of Vienna 1529. The siege was the pinnacle of Ottoman expansion into Europe. After the victories over Hungary the sultan Suleyman the Magnificent seized the opportunity and besieged the city of Vienna. His army amounted to around 120,000 troops who were faced by about 23,000 defenders. Suleyman gambled on attackign Vienna because his troops were faced by harsh conditions, unwilling allies, many artilery pieces were bogged down and lost and the troops were in a poor state of health. After several failed attempts to take the walls of the city, the Ottomans beat a costly retreat, losing many men and baggages in the process. The failure of the siege marked the start of the empire's stagnation and their farthest point of expansion.
    3. The siege of Belgrade 1456. After taking Constantinopole, the sultan Mehmed II The Conqueror rallied all his forces and attacked Hungary. Belgrade, the key to the defenses of southern Hungary was besieged by a force of about 60,000 Ottomans (some sources say up to 100,000). The regent of Hungary, Hunyadi quickly gathered a small strike force and attacked the besiegers attempting to lift the siege. The resilience of the defenders and the bravery of Hunyadi's troops who charged against the Ottoman cannons brought fear in the hearts of the Janissaries who fled the field and along with them the whole Ottoman army retreated. The victory stopped the Ottoma advance into Central Europe by 70 years but came at a dear price as Hunyadi died soon after due to disease which had broken out in his army.
    4. The battle of Vaslui 1475. The Ottoman Beylerbey of Rumelia Suleiman Pasha was sent with an army of up to 120,000 troops against the Moldavian voivode Stefan III (known as the Great). Stefan attacked the Ottoman army with approximately 40,000 Moldavians and 9,000 allied Szekely, Hungarian and Polish troops at a bridge over the Barlad river, an ideal position for a defender. The Moldavians main force drew the Ottomans over the bridge while a concealed force attacked the Ottoman right flank. Under the pressure of the two-pronged attack the Ottoman force collapsed into panic and over 40,000 Turks were butchered or fell off the bridge and drowned. The battle was described as the greatest victory of the cross of the islam. It was a great tactical victory, however it did not have a long lasting effect as in the following years the Ottomans defeated the Moldavians and brought back the status quo.
    I'm sure there are other great defeats like the wars of Skanderberg, the Battle of Breadfield, the Battle of Irong Gates, Krusevac etc. But i chose these four because they are either great strategic or great tactical victories. What other great battles would you consider and why?
    I've read a couple of threads here in Tsardoms and I've been impressed with the standard of research you have undertaken so I offer firstly my appreciation...

    As for the greatest Ottoman defeats, I feel you have listed the four most prominent and important of the era. Ankara for me stands head and shoulders the rest due to the decisiveness of the defeat, and the instability it caused the Ottoman regime due to the fact that the empire became torn apart by civil war between Bayezid's sons. Although it gave breathing space to a Byzantine Empire, the Byzantines themselves and their Balkan neighbours seemed to weak to profit from the after effects of Ankara, with Stephen Lazar, Mircea and Manuel II Palaiologos content to play one of Bayezid's sons off against the other.
    Last edited by Erebus Pasha; June 18, 2011 at 11:46 AM.

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  6. #66
    Bagatyr's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Although it gave breathing space to a Byzantine Empire, the Byzantines themselves and their Balkan neighbours seemed to weak to profit from the after effects of Ankara, with Stephen Lazar, Mircea and Manuel II Palaiologos content to play one of Bayezid's sons of against the other.
    The funny was that the only one ho try to benefit from this situation was bulgarian emperor Konstantin II Asen and his cousin prince Frujin seeking the aid of Mircho of Wallachia .




  7. #67
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus26 View Post
    I've read a couple of threads here in Tsardoms and I've been impressed with the standard of research you have undertaken so I offer firstly my appreciation...

    As for the greatest Ottoman defeats, I feel you have listed the four most prominent and important of the era. Ankara for me stands head and shoulders the rest due to the decisiveness of the defeat, and the instability it caused the Ottoman regime due to the fact that the empire became torn apart by civil war between Bayezid's sons. Although it gave breathing space to a Byzantine Empire, the Byzantines themselves and their Balkan neighbours seemed to weak to profit from the after effects of Ankara, with Stephen Lazar, Mircea and Manuel II Palaiologos content to play one of Bayezid's sons off against the other.
    Yes indeed, in terms of impact on the Ottoman Empire Ankara would be top of the list in my oppinion aswell. Besides the obvious military disaster and the disgrace of having the sultan himself captured, that was probably the only moment when the Ottomans were weakened enough for their advance into Europe to be halted.

    But as you said none of the Ottomans' enemies managed to take advantage of the situation. They were either too weak or possibly too worried of what would happen if they failed. Taking one side or another in the Ottoman civil war wouldn't bring too many results because who is to say that the brother you support won't turn against you once he has taken the power. In my oppinion only a coalition of states trying to push the Empire out of Europe would have worked at that point.

  8. #68
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Quote Originally Posted by Bagatyr View Post
    The funny was that the only one ho try to benefit from this situation was bulgarian emperor Konstantin II Asen and his cousin prince Frujin seeking the aid of Mircho of Wallachia .
    As far as I remember, they also tried to play along in the Ottoman civil war, at least in the beginning.

  9. #69

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Oće li taj mod do kraja ove godine ili jok?

  10. #70
    SpyrosM91's Avatar Despotes
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    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    english.....
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  11. #71
    DobroVece's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Duga su 4 meseca....

  12. #72
    Reno Melitensis's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    The greatest defeat the Ottomans endured was at the siege of Malta. It happened 35 years after the mod ending. In 1565 the Ottoman where at their greatest power under Sultan Suleiman. He ordered his generals to destroy the knights Hospitaliers once and for all. The ottoman army was composed of 6,000 Janisseries, reported as much as 20,000 man, Barbary pirates from the Barbary coast, 5,000, artillery men armed with all kind of fire weapons and cannons, about 500 heavy cannons some of them forged as soon as they landed, voluntiers about 5,000 more, sailors from the armada that brought them here, 3,000 more and fanatics circa 3,000 more. The Knights where not more than 300, all seasoned veterans and religeous fanatics, 500 troops mainly voluntiers fron Sicily and Italy some men that followed the Knights from Rhodes, 3,000 maltese citizens, men and women of all ages and childrean and most important the Maltese Christian Pirates known as Furbani, scourge of the Ottomans, they where the fighting force of the Knights raiding Ottoman shipping, maybe about 2,000.

    It was a massive defeat for the Ottomans, due to a great mistake in logistics, they taught they could take the island in a few months, but the seige lasted longer. With no fresh water and lack of food, desease weakened the Ottomans. Their final blow came when one of their generals Dragut died. After much delay, becasuse every European nation was afraid to help the knights they send a small releve force known as Il Gran Soccorso, The Great Relieve. The Ottomans mistoke the fleet as much bigger than it was actually and fleed. They lost men to mulnutrition and enemy action, as much as 15,000 are belived to have died.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by Reno Melitensis; September 05, 2011 at 01:59 PM.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Malta is an disaster but there was more important battles.

  14. #74

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    Taking one side or another in the Ottoman civil war wouldn't bring too many results because who is to say that the brother you support won't turn against you once he has taken the power.
    Which actually happened. Mehmet had support from Michael and then turned on him when his internal enemies were eliminated.
    FREE THE NIPPLE!!!

  15. #75

  16. #76

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Good summary on Ottoman defeats, even saying that gives me headache

    Vaslui and Breadfield marks the late medieval defeats of Ottoman armies. However, until the Ottoman war machine show its weakness against their counterparts those defeats were only caused delays on advance not a milestone. They were something like Cannae or Trasimene defeats of Romans not Zarma of Carthage.

    As long as the system works fine the defeats meant nothing that big. Ottoman army even after serious defeats like Malta or Lepanto able to replenish forces equip them and continue to fight. Just an example after defeat against Crusader fleet Ottomans built a navy from scratch, conquered Cyprus from Venince and retook Tunisia from the Spaniards. That's what i mean.

    However when the european states modernize their armies under the guideness of military geniuses like De Cordoba of Spain, Mauritius of Dutch and Gustavus of Sweden the tide has turned. Professionalism and extensive use of firearms and disciplined ranks of seasoned soldiers opened a new era.

    Cheers,
    Last edited by Little Legionaire; September 16, 2011 at 09:49 AM. Reason: add info

  17. #77

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    I once read that the occasional enemy might wipe out a 50,000 man force, but unfortunately for said enemy, the Ottomans would raise another 50,000 by the next campaign season.
    FREE THE NIPPLE!!!

  18. #78
    saneel's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Hahahaha what a Hollywood bulshit. What you think Ottoman warriors were levy millitia which numbered millions? They were the best in that time. Most of the victories they achived, they were outnumbered. In their prime, they were the most millitary and tacticaly advanced war machine with support of great zeal.

  19. #79
    Erebus Pasha's Avatar vezir-i âzam
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    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    They weren't always outnumbered for starters. But the Ottomans did have a highly competent professional core - whether it was the Janissaries, the Household Cavalry or the artillery corps. These were augmented by provincial troops and auxiliaries. During it's initial advances in the Balkans the Ottomans didn't have massive sprawling armies at their disposal. To be fair opposing forces were relatively evenly matched, but by the 16th century the Ottomans could raise considerable forces for campaigns.

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  20. #80

    Default Re: Greatest defeats of the Ottomans in the Tsardoms timeframe

    Quote Originally Posted by saneel View Post
    Hahahaha what a Hollywood bulshit. What you think Ottoman warriors were levy millitia which numbered millions? They were the best in that time. Most of the victories they achived, they were outnumbered. In their prime, they were the most millitary and tacticaly advanced war machine with support of great zeal.
    Yes they did have a very elite troops at their disposal beacuse of a very uniqe military school system. They were taking children from 7-14 year old by force, from muslim and non-muslim people in their empire, and only the best could finish that training, many children end up dead at that training. Those who were left remain, they were Janisaries, by some historians the best standing army troops in that time. And was like that until Ottomans stopt conquering, and modernising their economy, then sturts Ottoman downhill in their power, and many rebelions of Janisary troops beacuse they weren't properly paid...

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