Your opinion: scripted characters

[Hengest]

We want to ask you which of your favourite historical characters you would like to see in game-
IF YOU WANT THAT CHARACTER IN THE GAME THEN FILL IN THE DETAILS HERE
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...KLREeCow#gid=3

Our policy of whether or not we will script the appearance of a general in the game is based on the fact that the game is re-writing history not re-living it. As soon as you change things in 1080, - history in the game world is no longer the same as the real world history.

However, the game is based on history. Yes, as sooon as you change history and bloodlines then Richard the Lionheart would not exist since he was the result of a specific lineage of kings and queens and all the complicated events that caused him to be born. However you need to ask yourself, what would the Middle Ages be without Richard the Lionheart, Saladin, Joan of Arc, Guy de Lusignan?

Therefore if you can think of an important warrior that was a key person in the Middle Ages and you would like him/her to be scripted to appear no matter what- then fill in the google document above.

CURRENTLY CONSIDERED CHARACTERS

• Gilles de Rais
• Henry of Burgundy
• Gui deLusignan
• Jehan le Meingre
• William Marshall
• Klaus Störtebeker
• Saladin
• Frederick Barbarossa
  
• Crusader State lords
• Balian of Ibelin
• Baldwin V of Jerusalem
• Raynald of Châtillon
• Raymond III of Tripoli

Start Date characters:
Naturally a number of historical characters will exist at the start date 1080, which don't need to be scripted to appear such as El Cid, Baudouin de Boulogne (became Baldwin I of Jerusalem) etc

Confirmed characters:
Genghis Khan and the great Mongol leaders (since these are tied to our 'Coming of the Mongols' script)

[Space_Ed]

I personally don't think we should have any characters appear 'no matter what' unless they are present at the start date of 1080. A key example would be El Cid. I am open to other historical characters appearing later only as long as a series of parameters are met. I don't think Jean d'Arc should appear unless France is in a war against England for example.

Ghengis Kahn and the mongols I would say is the exeption to this though (I would like them to appear no matter what) but as his birth was a long way from the influence of the part of the world we are covering I don't think that is an exception that breaks the basic principles of rewriting history on our map, because he gets his act together off-map.

[Veah]

Well, I think the best solution would be a mix between both ideas. Having a turk general called Osman in the 14th century would not be realistic if the byzantines have expelled them from Anatolia, but we must have Osman so that the Rum Sultanate becomes the Otoman Empire.
So, historical characters must not be a no-mater-what, but they could appear via script under some conditions.

-Jeane d'Arc in the 15th century if France and England are a war and France is losing (as Space_Ed said).
-William Wallace or Robert Bruce between 1250 and 1325 if Scotland has lost homeland regions.
-Constantine XI in the 15th century if the byzantines have been reduced to 2 regions.
-And in the other side, Mehmed II in the 15th century if the turks have become a powerful faction.


(I don't know if I've answered what you wanted)

[Horatius Flaccus]

I agree with Ed on Genghis Khan, but a definite no on any other scripted characters. You are building your own history in your campaign.

[Jimmy-j]

I say no to scripted characters.
Just like Hross says, we are rewriting history and in that new history, a mighty English heir might be born wo would become a great crusader. But he might not.
I like to "make" my generals and familymembers and having a scripted character appear might ruin that.

[The Awesome Boy]

Frederick I Barbarossa the crusader

[Horseless Nomad]

This is delicate. If one dude pops in why not them all? Ed's call makes sense, they also mention something like this over on the EB2 forums. How history outside the map goes as it would, but inside it runs according to player actions. Maybe only characters who 'came out of nowhere' if that makes sense. Low-born people who can make an effect if conditions are right. Lionheart would be unlikely as you'd have to make it so that the english faction recreates his family tree all the way from 1080.

[Hengest]

updated first post with poll

[Tomato_Sandwich]

Well, I think the best solution would be a mix between both ideas. Having a turk general called Osman in the 14th century would not be realistic if the byzantines have expelled them from Anatolia, but we must have Osman so that the Rum Sultanate becomes the Otoman Empire.
So, historical characters must not be a no-mater-what, but they could appear via script under some conditions.

-Jeane d'Arc in the 15th century if France and England are a war and France is losing (as Space_Ed said).
-William Wallace or Robert Bruce between 1250 and 1325 if Scotland has lost homeland regions.
-Constantine XI in the 15th century if the byzantines have been reduced to 2 regions.
-And in the other side, Mehmed II in the 15th century if the turks have become a powerful faction.


(I don't know if I've answered what you wanted)

I completely, totally, 100% agree with this. If the conditions are right then its perfectly historical for these characters to arise. you could argue that it would be unhistorical for the conditions to be right and these characters not to arise. though i also agree with Horseless Nomad that all the simulated conditions need to be right. So Richard the Lionheart could not arise because his lineage would never arise. but its possible that some random character with a different name could do exactly what he did historically.
With that in mind things like this do add so much to flavour, immersion and gameplay.
ooooow a poll

[Hengest]

Personally I think characters like William Marshall don't intrude on historical/game reality

[Tomato_Sandwich]

I suppose if particular characters appeared as generals with no army behind them or anything no one could really complain of it disrupting the historicity or gameplay. would it be possible to make parts of the script like this optional?

[Hengest]

Yeah you can have them based on certain conditions and you can have them just spawn as one unit. My personal list would be
Gilles de Rais
Henry of Burgundy
Gui deLusignan
Jehan le Meingre
William Marshall
Klaus Störtebeker

and many more, actually a pretty long list

With Joan of Arc, Jeanne de Montfort "The Flame" and Jeanne de Clisson "The Lioness of Brittany" as ancillaries. I'd also have Matilda of Canossa as an ancillary at the start date. All of this is under discussion right now, so your opinions count!

[Heathen Storm]

I say yes, to a certain extent. It really depends on the character though, if they were potentially game changing then i say go for it! Such as Hross' example, William Marshall.

[spanish_emperor]

i would place most of the characters like John of Arc and William Marshal as ancillaries rather than characters. I like to think of characters as powerful people and their nobles who controlled certain regions or an army rather than famous individuals.

I think there should be scripted characters if:
1. the family tree remains the same as it was historically. Eg. You can't have Richard the lionheart if Eleanor of Aquitaine did not Marry Henry II of England.
2. Individuals who gained important positions and were not just great fighters (these should be ancillaries or traits)
3. Individuals who had no connection to royal family trees. Such are nobles who rose because of skill and opportunity.

So Richard the lionheart could exist if the whole family tree thing is done correctly. Otherwise only nobles who rose to become important leaders, etc should be able to appear with a script. Such include Saladin and William Wallace who rose because of special events and diplomatic skills rather than by birth. We assume that only the things which the player has the power to change actually change with everything else held equal. Therefore, because the player has no control over Wallace since he was a minor noble and therefore not part of the character list in game then nothing would be out of the ordinary if he appeared after the English invade Scotland.

The same can be said of Saladin and others. Saladin i think could be a possible scripted character because his appearance was not dictated by who married who in the Ataberg of Mosul or the Fatamid Caliphate but based on the Syrian conquest of Egypt. If Syria conquers Egypt with Saladins uncle then it can be assumed that Saladin will use his diplomatic skills to make alliances and gain independence from the Syrians and kill his uncle.

[SeekerAfterTruth]

-Jeane d'Arc in the 15th century if France and England are a war and France is losing (as Space_Ed said).
-William Wallace or Robert Bruce between 1250 and 1325 if Scotland has lost homeland regions.
-Constantine XI in the 15th century if the byzantines have been reduced to 2 regions.
-And in the other side, Mehmed II in the 15th century if the turks have become a powerful faction.

I also totally agree with this, if the right conditions come up then characters can appear. I also agree that the idea of having these famous people as ancillaries is logical. If there aren't going to be strict conditions on how and when these people appear then it is a firm NO to scripted characters.

[sumskilz]

-Constantine XI in the 15th century if the byzantines have been reduced to 2 regions.
-And in the other side, Mehmed II in the 15th century if the turks have become a powerful faction.

In these cases, I don't think there is a way to make them the sons of former faction leaders and in line for the succession without some weird anomalies like sons being a year younger than their father and possibly never becoming the faction leader.

If a faction has no family tree we could make all the faction leaders and heirs scripted to appear in order, but again there would be problems like someone existing even though their father died before they would have been conceived.

In short, scripting faction leaders is problematic unless we go all out which would reduce the rewriting history aspect, but would reduce the weirdness of unrelated people being on the same family tree after a transition (i.e. Genghis Khan appearing to be the son of the Kwarazm Shah or one of his relatives)

[Hengest]

updated first post

[Desley]

William Wallace of course! When England takes 1 or more of the Scottish cities!
And yes as many spawning generals as possible it would be great!

And Robert the Bruce (greatest king scotland ever had) would be fantastic!

[Tomato_Sandwich]

I think there should be scripted characters if:
1. the family tree remains the same as it was historically. Eg. You can't have Richard the lionheart if Eleanor of Aquitaine did not Marry Henry II of England.

So Richard the lionheart could exist if the whole family tree thing is done correctly.

The problem with this is that such a match would probably never happen. First a family member around the right time would have to have a son who happened to be called Henry (out of a choice of about 80 other names), would then have to marry someone who happened to be called Eleanor of Aquitaine (out of a choice of about 50 names). And that's just if you want the immediate family to work. I'l let you work out the probability

[mynameisowen]

The problem with this is that such a match would probably never happen. First a family member around the right time would have to have a son who happened to be called Henry (out of a choice of about 80 other names), would then have to marry someone who happened to be called Eleanor of Aquitaine (out of a choice of about 50 names). And that's just if you want the immediate family to work. I'l let you work out the probability

I agree, more often than not it wont work. Unless the character, as mentioned before, came outside of the family tree or through other events (eg. Genghis Khan, Saladin, William Wallace), I dont see it working for anyone in the family tree .

Also I dont know if this is being thought about but I really hope these leaders dont spawn with armies, that will be changing the way the game pans out. Having a super general doesn't affect that much unless he's your faction leader, and as mentioned before, I dont think it would work for these spawned characters to work in the family tree.