Dune Book Series Discussion

[Zacheria]

Here I would love to disscuss the Dune book sereis written by Frank Herbert. Anything from philosphy, characters, politics, ect. One major question I always had is; how closley does the life of Paul Atrides tie with the life of the Prophet Muhammad? I only have basic knowledge about the life of Muhammad, but I can definatly see the ties with the desert, tribilism society and being a raider. But I always wondered how deep these ties went?

[Rhah]

Good choice for a discussion. (as long as we keep it to Frank Herberts originals!)
There is obviously a massive Islamic influence in the Dune series, particularly the Fremen, who i've always seen as being more like a Bedouin tribe (I think Herbert actually put something in the books along those lines)
Regarding the similarities to Mohammed, thats a bit trickier. Paul Atreides starts off more like a Lawrence of Arabia type figure, but evolves into the prophet for political reasons (and the drugs helped a bit). I'm dont know that much about Mohammed, except that he was driven out of Mecca (As paul was driven from Arrakeen), then he went to Medina, gathered his forces (As Paul did as well) and retook Mecca (also as Paul did)
I guess there are a few similarities, character wise, but the political situation's are totally different

[Ahiga]

The fremen certainly did seem very Bedouin. You might equate them to have a bit of the jewish quality in their discrimination and wanderings (before settling upon Dune, they were basically space-aged nomading, or at least, were having to gear up and leave periodically or find themselves unsuited to their current homes). Paul had a bit of the quality of jesus in being considered Divine by his followers, if memory serves. The Bene Gesserit may have mentioned that the Kwisatz Haderach (The Male Bene Gesserit, who could 'look down' both lines of his ancestry, be it male or female) would be considered wholly divine to more primitive people...I think. It may have just been sending their women to basically missionary throughout the universe so as to provide stable places for them to shelter themselves in if the time called for it, one reason why it was so easy for Paul and his mother (A Bene Gesserit) to be amongst the Fremen.

I think the way others saw him as a Kwisatz Haderach would have transended being seen as purely a prophet by some, and have been considered divine by others. Still, we can see a generally obvious comparison of Europe's hunger for Spice in the old world (Fighting for the trade routes or easier means of getting it), or a more contemporary example of being Oil, which seems to work a lot better (Where in spice you had native powers exterting dominance over the substance, oil, at least in the start of the century, would have had Europe having a strong sway in the region instead of the natives, whom would be the fremen).

I felt like the series went on a decline after the first, though it was a slow one. Not necessarily that they got worse (You can say the new ones by Frank's son are worse, I just see them as more modern and not as classic as his own), but that they got a lot more convuluded and hard to understand.


I really loved the series and setting. With the use of those shield systems which limited high technology, I almost thought it'd make for a good TW mod, though liberties would need to be taken to explain why battles are occuring a lot larger and without vehicles.

[Rhah]

The Bene Gesserit seeded that legend by using the missionaria Protectiva, which, as you say, was mainly so that their sisters could use it to find shelter on hostile planets (which is exactly how the Fremen came to have the belief in the Mahdi)
Oil is definitly a good analogy for Melange (especially in this day and age). You know, maybe if Dick Cheney had just read Dune, he would have had the idea of going to the Middle east and becoming a Holy man, claimed he was the Mahdi (An actual prophet/leader which the Koran states will return at the end of the world) and then he could have taken the Oil and ruled the world.
anyway, i digress,
Brian Herberts prequels were quite entertaining, i have to admit that, but they really do not compare to his Fathers on any level. Still, if people read the prequels, and then go on to read the Originals, that can only be a good thing.
I liked all the Original Dune novels, but i do agree they definitly got more difficult to read. (Although Chapterhouse wasn't too bad)

What did you guys think of the Mini-series? I've only seen the first one, which wasnt bad, except for the lack of budget. Apparently the second was a lot better.

[Ahiga]

Cheny would have failed the target practice part of being a Messiah.

I see Brian Herbert's novels as soemthing that's the quality of a modern day sci fi or fantasy novel. Certainly they can be great, and enjoyable reads, but since they are written in a day and age that doesn't promote the same style as Dune or Lord of the Rings, they obviously cater to a different fanbase for the most part. I preferred his series covering the life of Duke Leo Atredies. The older ones were alright, but I've heard that his depiction of the Bulterian Jihad (as a literal war) clashed with the idea of Franks, which was to have it be less direct. Plus, while I was able to enjoy it, some of the stuff was just..mind blowingly farfetched. The Agamennon fellow and his cohorts (The brains in a robotic casing) were almost on the edge of being Japanese-Mecha like, and the predessors to the Bene Gesserits were not really that appealing. When the Bene Gesserit of Frank's world were very subtle, very realistic with few fantasy liberties, what I recall of his Son's depiction of their ancestors were basically teetering towards Forgotten Realm's Magic (Mind nukes, one in paritcular being able to reconfigure her body).

Of the miniseries, I liked both. The first did have me notice a lot of the lacking visual stuff (I Loved the cities, but outdoors, you had these painting backgrounds. I figure they could have easily gone to Nevada or arizona or Southern California and used special effects to provide better scenery), but it told the story very slowly and well, unlike the second which rushed through it a bit.

Who became your favorite character? I always liked Ducan. Also the Fremen Chieftan who pretty much became Muad'dib's right hand man, I forget his name.

[Zacheria]

I thought it was very interesting the pattern of the seires from the origanl books. Dune ended as a triumph, Dune Messiah ended sadly, Children of Dune ended with another triumph, then God and emperor ended tragicly. To tell you the truth i havent finished heritics of chaperhouse yet, so I dont know if the pattern continues. I thought this contrast was very interesting, it kinda showed how the rise to power was always more glory filled, then actully maintaning rule.

I always liked the Baron, how smart he thought he was, but how horribly he underestimated the fremen.

[Rush Limbaugh]

Dune is my favorite book of all time. Believe it or not I read it in three days. I just couldnt put it down . I was really dissapointed in the movie. I hear it was orginally 6 hours long and editted down. I think its time to either redo it or release a new one say Dune Messiah . You could do it like LOTR, Harry Potter and Star Wars and do the whole series.

[Mímirswell]

It is my favorite series. It's hard to describe my reverence for Frank Herbert's ability to craft a world so realistic that one can become lost in it. Reading Dune, I never once lost the sense of immersion that often plague me in other fantasy/sci-fi worlds. The attention to detail, the political machinations, the unique application of eugenics, genetics and prophecy are just unparalleled. Only Asimov's Foundation series can hope to touch it.

I think its time to either redo it or release a new one say Dune Messiah . You could do it like LOTR, Harry Potter and Star Wars and do the whole series.

At the very least, I'd like to see the series done properly up to God Emperor of Dune. I enjoyed Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune but I always felt that God Emperor was the pinnacle of his works.

[Rhah]

Who became your favorite character? I always liked Ducan. Also the Fremen Chieftan who pretty much became Muad'dib's right hand man, I forget his name.

I think you mean Stilgar. He was a good character, in fact, i cant think of any particularly poor characters. (in the first books at least)
My personal favourite character would have to be Gurney Halleck (Paul's Weapons trainer, and double-hard b*stard). Duncan Idaho was also pretty good (and became very interesting when he became the Ghola in the later books). Also, Piter de Vries always made me laugh.

Regarding the David Lynch film... i actually quite like it. I do like Lynch's style anyway, and i thought he got a lot of things right with his vision of Dune. Of course, he also got a lot of things wrong, and the special effects were "somewhat lacking", and the fact that he let the studio force him to include those sonic guns really annoyed me. Apparently Frank Herbert was quite happy with Lynch's movie!!

Rush, you read Dune in 3 days??!!! bloody hell, thats impressive. Did you actually sleep at all?! I've done it in about a week before, and that was rushed.
I'd love to see a new Dune movie, but as Rush said, it would HAVE to be a trilogy. The problem is that it would also have to be very complex to remain faithful to the books, and im not sure the general public would take to it (One of the main reasons that Lynch's film was such a failure was apparently because people were getting confused)

[Rush Limbaugh]

Rush, you read Dune in 3 days??!!! bloody hell, thats impressive. Did you actually sleep at all?! I've done it in about a week before, and that was rushed.

Hey they dont call me Rush for nothing Well in reality I was working as a projectionist at the time. A very boring job. You worked 10 minutes out of every hour. Now days its more like 15 minutes out of every three hours. I was working 12 hour shifts. So I sat there and read Dune all day. I used to bring Avalom Hill war board games with me and my best friend would come by and play. Truly a boring but well paying job. Its hard to believe no one has thought of doing at least the original trilogy seeing how big remakes are these days.

[vizi]

I read Dune about a year ago and had planned on at a minimum finishing the Orginal Series but I had some things come up that prevented me from reading any of the other books.

I recently decided, upon seeing Sibs custom user title (Maud'Sib) to finish the series. I knew to do it right I needed to reread Dune, which I did in two days (I suprised myself in that aspect, I could not put the book down!)

Personally Dune is a work of art in my eyes. I prefer its style over any other SciFi book I have ever read. I enjoy the usage of italics as you delve into the main characters every thoughts as it leads you deeper and deeper into a world of political intrigue and religious fervor.

As for my favorite characters in the book Dune, that is a hard question to answer. Duncan Idaho was underdeveloped but I have heard he becomes quite interesting in the later books. I enjoyed Gurney Halleck and his songs and quotations. I knew Leto was going to die but I still enjoyed his strong character. The plottings of the mentats, Hawat and de Vries, with Baron Vladimir providing what was a fantastic villian in my mind spinng the webs of deciet. Stilgar was a powerful character until the end of the book but what happened did not suprise me in the least. Chani and Jessica played great supporting roles for Paul-Maud'dib.

When it boils down to it, Maud'dib is my favorite character in the 1st book. I relate to his pain and his character. He plays his role well as he tumbles from a boy, to a man, to a prophet, to Julian character. (His destruction of the shield wall and the crossing of it with his army and making deposing the present leaders of government.)

Anyway, loved the book and plan on reading the rest soon, or should I say devouring them.

[Cluny the Scourge]

The first one is an interesting piece - like LOTR it has fairly weak character development and a fallible prose style, but the main focus is on exploration and detailing of this large-scale, believable fantasy world. Dune Messiah is worth reading as a kind of addendum to the first, if you enjoyed it - the other 4 books in the series are terrible. He completely lost his grip, even on his own canon and became confused about the 'rules' of his story-world, and the writing is self-indulgent and without dramatic tension.

[Fenris]

At the very least, I'd like to see the series done properly up to God Emperor of Dune. I enjoyed Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune but I always felt that God Emperor was the pinnacle of his works.

I couldn't agree more, God Emperor is a piece of exception among the other jewels.

the other 4 books in the series are terrible. He completely lost his grip, even on his own canon and became confused about the 'rules' of his story-world, and the writing is self-indulgent and without dramatic tension.

I disagree, the 4 lasts were less about the action and the writing style, but more about the world it creates and the philosophy behind it.

[John Wayne]

Personally, the first novel was the best, with God Emperor being a close second. The first just has so mutch more flavour in it than the other books do. God Emperor has a lot, true that, but the original Dune will always be number one in my book.

[Siblesz]

Dune was a fantastic read. It wasn't the best book I've read, but it is definately up there in top 10.

From the first Dune, I enjoyed the desert atmosphere most of all... I've somewhat of a fetish with the desert and with desert cultures. I loved the whole atmosphere of Dune, from the enormous sand worms to the vast expanses of arid desert to the ferocious desert storms that plagued the regions.

I loved how the fremen suffered more than most people but were also more self-conscious about their mortality and the realities that they faced in comparison to the Harkonnens or the other Houses, etc. I also liked the relationship between Paul and the tribe, the Spartan-like fraternity of the Fremen and their customs and traditions ("he gives water to the dead!"), as well as the societal struggle that would span four centuries of careful planning and that would instill Dune with water and a fertile land filled with green.

Finally, I was impressed with the Jihad and its subtle implications, I was impressed with the character complexity and internal struggles of the one who will lead the way, Paul Muad'dib, the whole political maneuverings that take place throughout the course of the book, the religious overtones that reflected heavily on Islam and its own culture, and the whole time-sense and prophetic visions side of the book that left the reader with infinite possibilities, even though there was only one ultimate and un-deniable ending (the Jihad).

It's just a book that covers so many different things, so many different concepts and feelings and philosophies... and the other books just expand upon these things, but on completely different levels. It wowed me when I read it.

[vizi]

The fremen did impress me on the way they looked at life and how they went about it. I think that the only way one can achieve a level like that would be to live in an enviroment such as they did.

However they way they lived also made them perfect for an unstoppable army. Most men don't like taking lives and most that do live with remorse all their lives. The fremen did not have feelings like that and that made them dangerous when set lose upon the galaxy.

Desert Power at its finest. And the desert or dry land ecology aspects of the book were interesting as well. The desert has always intrigued me, proof that no matter how hostile a place is, life will still manage to overcome the obstacles presented.

[Mr.Flint]

The Dune series are my favorite read... i read them atleast twice a year
I have to say that Brian while a bit overdoing (i didnt like the idea of several long living key figures) it in Butlerian Jihad trilogy,he did an excellent job of telling the pre-story.
and the Houses trilogy were top notch almost the same quality as his father's writing.

Here I would love to disscuss the Dune book sereis written by Frank Herbert. Anything from philosphy, characters, politics, ect. One major question I always had is; how closley does the life of Paul Atrides tie with the life of the Prophet Muhammad? I only have basic knowledge about the life of Muhammad, but I can definatly see the ties with the desert, tribilism society and being a raider. But I always wondered how deep these ties went?

I have the impression that he tied the life of Paul not only with only Muhammad's but also Moses and Jesus.
I also find its interesting that while obviously drawing most of his inspiration of the fremen from the beduin tribes, he elevated the fremen to the extremes of morality, a rare occurence among the beduin.
no clan and tribe feuds, no thievery between the tribes etc.
Its also interesting to note that while most religions are get mixed and creating such mixes Zen-Sunnism, Buddislam, Zen-Sufism, Orange Catholicism etc,
he chose Judaism to remain intact, survivable and even play a key role (Chapterhouse: Dune)

[Niles Crane]

I never mean to rain on someone's parade, but the Dune series went downhill for me after the first book. Neverthless, I did enjoy that and the film. At the age I read it, I didn't think much about the philosophy or the religion, I suppose I must get to rereading it now.

[vizi]

Octavian's post provides more evidence to what I have been seeing.

Some peopl say the series has its ups and downs but remains good throughout the series and others say it goes downhill after the first book.

When I get the second book and continue my delve into this series I shall determine this fact for my self.

[Mr.Flint]

Octavian's post provides more evidence to what I have been seeing.

Some peopl say the series has its ups and downs but remains good throughout the series and others say it goes downhill after the first book.

When I get the second book and continue my delve into this series I shall determine this fact for my self.

Im one of those who think that the series doesnt have ups and downs, its just plain good all over.