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Thread: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

  1. #1
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    Default The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    Hey guys,

    Like many I was confused by the big balls of colour clinging resolutely to the backs of generals in the awesome Shogun 2. Soon the forum was covered in threads explaining their name and origin with a particular youtube video that discussed their use being heavily linked. It was a great video but there were a few misunderstandings that resulted from its tone and experiments.

    People seem resolutely convinced that its name, derived from Japanese as "arrow catcher" meant it was clearly originally conceived as a peice of protective equipment to be used by important individuals "to protect them from arrows when retreating/routing". Now in all fairness this conclusion is nothing but logical. They are on the back, they entangle arrows so surely they were simply somewhat odd additions to Japanese defensive tailoring.

    This is not the case. The Horo started its career as a pocket of silk that when attached to the back of a rider billowed prettily in the wind. Upon it was emblazoned the clan iconography and with the Japanese being unbelievably flamboyant in regards to their battlefield marketing it was soon widely adopted by ranking figures. Thus, it was in a short amount of time considered a great honour to wear but with most generals spending much of a battle stationary a somewhat caricature like evolution occurred. Bamboo was used as a frame to ensure it maintained its form while stationary and as time went on the size grew from a simple back hanging to a gargantuan form, often reaching several meters in diameter.

    This popularity among the ranking was not because of its protection. If archers were a genuine concern for a Daiymo then he was probably close to loosing the battle anyway, indeed one is forced to ask if so little faith was put in his back plating to 'ensure his safety while fleeing' then why would his front armour be considered efficient. People in this forum seem to be under the assumption that it makes perfect sense for the paragons of Japanese manly virtues (namely nobles) who existed in an honour driven society to wear massive, obvious and clearly ungainly contraptions simply to assist in their odds of survival in case they need to leg it. No.

    It was a ceremonial piece whose ability to entangle arrows was far from its original purpose. Indeed the name is considered by some (namely my professor... and me ) to have come from the days when messengers as well as generals would wear them meaning when they arrived to deliver reports the now deflated Horo would most likely be riddled with stray arrows that instead of simply bouncing of conventional lacquer had instead been 'caught'. It would only take one joke about the 'arrow catcher' for the name to stick and indeed slip into popular Japanese lexicon.

    Again thanks to this youtube clip, people have gone on to say its clear second purpose was akin to that of a zebras stripes: disorientate the predator (archer). The presenter mentions in passing that he found aiming at the fluttering piece distracting. The cursory remarks of one historian are now TWC Horo gospel. This is clearly a pleasant side effect for messengers and runners, not one that was foremost in the mind of whatever Japanese retainer first sew it for his master.

    Ultimately to pitch the Horo as a protective garment for fleeing nobility is like saying the banners every soldier wore above his head was a contraption that protected the wearer from weakened overhead strikes as it would soften the blow if a spear head was caught in the silk. Clearly, that's an accurate statement; the banner would make a crude head guard, but we obviously know it is used for identification and to convey pride in ones clan. The Horo is, although in our minds clearly weird, simply a ceremonial cloak with an entertaining name: NOT a piece of protection that prevents an honourable death on the battlefield for a routed general and instead lets them escape to safe place that allows him to commit Sepuku anyway...

    Sorry for the rant, but thought some may appreciate a clarification. Watch that video by the way, its still interesting.

    Don


    P.S The most iron hard counter to even the most dedicated "it was protection" evangelist is that the original fluttering Horo with naught but air maintaining its form worked as protection because the airtight silk allowed the entire cloak to act like an airbag in a crash when the arrow struck. The contained air would be released out the sides and this cushion of delicious newtonian physics would prevent full arrow penetration. By the time we reach Sengoku Japan the ceremonial Horo is all that remains and thanks to the wicker frame, would comprehensively fail to slow arrows to the same extent. The best example I can think of is get a friend to hold a piece of paper. If its held loosely with some give in the sheet, trying to stab though it with a pen will be hard. Much of the force will be dissipated by the give inherent in a relaxed sheet. If it was to be held taught though... he will have a biro stab wound Its the exact same principle. The original version was a ceremonial dress with a nice side effect. The one we see on our precious generals bodyguard is a ceremonial dress that thanks to the frame would just ensure all the blood from an arrow wound pools at the bottom of the silk instead of getting your horse and saddle damp No. Protection. At. All.
    Last edited by DakkaDon; March 25, 2011 at 01:09 PM.

  2. #2
    IGdood's Avatar Banzai jūden-ki
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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    This needs to be stickies. I'm tired of people calling the horo "Stupid" when they haven't even learned about it.

  3. #3
    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    You should be here when they found out all samurai wear fundoshi.

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

    Seriously. Click it. Its the only overhaul mod that's overhauling enough to bring out NEW clans
    Masaie. Retainer of Akaie|AntonIII






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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    I had to google Fundoshi. I now regret doing it on the images page. I hate you Erwin

  5. #5
    Soulstrider's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    Well sir I strongly disagree with you on this subject.
    "The challenge of modernity is to live without illusions and without becoming disillusioned. " - Antonio Gramsci

    "Those who do not move, do not notice their chains." - Rosa Luxembourg

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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    Thanks for the clarification, it was interesting to read.

    That said, I simply can't figure out why CA went on with ceremonial horo instead of this. Seems to me that it would serve both the practical function of making it easier to spot a general on the battlefield AND it certainly wouldn't look as ridiculous as the "back ball".

    That's why I call it a bad design decision. Its a minor aesthetic issue, sure, but just look how much controversy it sparked. Giant flags with stuff on them trump giant back balls anytime if you ask me!

  7. #7
    walkerk19's Avatar Yoshihara
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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    Ooh nice, subject for debate. I'll be watching this thread
    "Our players are running from the game my lord! A shameful dispray" -Kyosukenasai

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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    Hey guys, Im going to add a quick edit that slipped my mind at the time but is still relevant. Ill put it in a P.S so re read the end of my opening post in about three minutes

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    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    Quote Originally Posted by ManSh00ter View Post
    Thanks for the clarification, it was interesting to read.

    That said, I simply can't figure out why CA went on with ceremonial horo instead of this. Seems to me that it would serve both the practical function of making it easier to spot a general on the battlefield AND it certainly wouldn't look as ridiculous as the "back ball".

    That's why I call it a bad design decision. Its a minor aesthetic issue, sure, but just look how much controversy it sparked. Giant flags with stuff on them trump giant back balls anytime if you ask me!
    Coz it would really be a pain in the ass to make a taisho unit that includes a not mounted ashigaru of say 3 towing the gigantic furinkazan wherever the taisho goes. Might as well make it a seperate unit. But for what? Aesthetic purposes? Identification? The Horo is so unique it already serves it.

    http://www.treefrogtreasures.com/for...chmentid=56703

    Sure maybe Hatajirushi....but I figured alot of people will have more complaints seeing paper trees on samurai backs or gigantic tessen war fans as their sashimono.

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

    Seriously. Click it. Its the only overhaul mod that's overhauling enough to bring out NEW clans
    Masaie. Retainer of Akaie|AntonIII






  10. #10
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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    There you go, P.S edit added. I was already history nerding it up, now im throwing in physics as well. Arnt I a stereotype

  11. #11
    Hresvelgr's Avatar Sōkō no yari
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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    Hmm, I did skim a bit in the end, but it seems that you said they were purely ceremonial. I think I've read/heard somewhere that they originally were for catching arrows, but not when the leader's retreating, it's for messengers who would obviously be chased by the enemy trying to stop them from delivering news to and from the daimyo/general. And the horo just became associated with the commander in general over time rather than just his messengers.
    I'm not crazy, I'm the only one who's not crazy!

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    Sol Invictus's Avatar Chugen
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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    From what I have read about Japanese military history; which admitedly isn't exhaustive; it was mainly used for identification of messengers who were critical for the control of a battle and were therefore an elite. In order to perform their battlefield function they needed to be easily identifiable in the chaos of battle so the Taisho and unit commanders could find and identify them. With such an important role the Horo became a badge of honor and marked the wearer out as an elite.

    Interesting theory about the name. I could see how that may have been the case. Every military down through history has used a soldier's humor to give a nickname to certain things. Imagine what someone from the future may think of the terms dogtag or brainbucket from the U.S. military.

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    kentuckybandit's Avatar Ishiyumi no shashu
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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    Excellent post DakkaDon, +rep, though I am sorry to say it won't make much difference. Even though your post is focused on the 'arrow catcher' issue, you will be over run with flames as forum warrior after forum warrior will use this thread as a battleground to argue over the cons of the Horo's very existence in game. Your once well stated and plotted argument as to the true use of the Horo will be overwhelmed and buried in a massive, burning tidal wave of epeen.







  14. #14
    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    Quote Originally Posted by kentuckybandit View Post
    Excellent post DakkaDon, +rep, though I am sorry to say it won't make much difference. Even though your post is focused on the 'arrow catcher' issue, you will be over run with flames as forum warrior after forum warrior will use this thread as a battleground to argue over the cons of the Horo's very existence in game. Your once well stated and plotted argument as to the true use of the Horo will be overwhelmed and buried in a massive, burning tidal wave of epeen.
    Then counter them with my thread.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...05#post9224105

    Dont want horo? Fine, go command pixie fairy samurai.

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

    Seriously. Click it. Its the only overhaul mod that's overhauling enough to bring out NEW clans
    Masaie. Retainer of Akaie|AntonIII






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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    Invictus said it better than I did. Do I have permission to paraphrase your messenger point and edit it into the original post? It was really well said

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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    I LOVED that thread Erwin, made me lol at work yesterday I am new to this forum thing, how/what is rep and how do I give it to you for introducing me to pixie warriors?

    Edit: And thank you for the compliment bandit! AGH! Forums are scary places, I dont want to commit a faux pas by forgetting to thank people! Im sure ill get the hang of this eventually...
    Last edited by DakkaDon; March 25, 2011 at 01:07 PM.

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    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    You have to at least make 50 posts, rep is like the TWC version and a much more concrete way of doing the brofist.

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

    Seriously. Click it. Its the only overhaul mod that's overhauling enough to bring out NEW clans
    Masaie. Retainer of Akaie|AntonIII






  18. #18
    Eien's Avatar Senshi
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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    oh, no worries, if that Horo can't convince them, try the "other" HORO on for size
    Horo

    「戦場廻り、運命決まり、生死しらない」

  19. #19
    Calax's Avatar Wimmer
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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    We do have a horo thread in the Historical center... somewhere.

    But here's Mike Loades to tell you all about the Horo and show you it in action (as well as a little bit about roman puppies at the very beginning).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26o9LiaB0Zg

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    Default Re: The Great Horo Misunderstanding (the back balloons for the uninformed)

    Yeah thats the video I mentioned in my post, as its about historical warfare he tries his best to tie everything back to combat and although its interesting some of it is kinda tenuous. Or at least conjecture pitched as fact: ie. the 'wobbly target' point.

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