Shogun 2 Realism (S2R)

[Belgae]

Hey,
Excited as I am about this project, I couldn't help but write down some ideas. Not all of them are original or new; some of them have been mentioned several times here. But If put together, they may have some game-mechanic ideas buried inside them...

On the Samurai unit size

I totally get the idea of Samurai being an elite and rare force and having to trade off the addition of some small elite units against having sufficient numbers to plug the holes in your lines. Everybody playing TW-games likes big armies though; at least I know I do. It seems a little sad to have a 2011 game and reduce some unit numbers back to some 2004 engine capabilities, just to achieve an in-game atmosphere. Increasing the samurai back at least a little and increasing the size of Ashiyaru units to the hardcore cap (?) may be the way to go. Especially if you have research them to recruit them. Also, instead of a raw cap that may irk some players and skew your armies in late-game stages ("I can only recruit as many samurai with 15 provinces as I could with 5??"), a high upkeep cost may be the best idea: the player is free to use them as he pleases, if he has the economy to support them.


On ronin

Even as they are a super addition, they overpower the early game at the moment: it's also strange a Daimyo has 4 ronin units early on, at a time when he is unable to train some of his own clan samurai. Maybe reduce the number of ronin recruitible from early stage sake dens and even keeping katana-units for later stages would be a nice idea, imo. Maybe increasing their upkeep some more might make them harder to rush as well.

On the tech/building tree

It's good to see that you need higher tier buildings and techs to build samurai units. But some units are really high up the tech tree. With the turn-number as they are, it will only be mid-game before I'll be recruiting my samurai archers, and I'm Chosokabe! It's also dangerous to make it so hard for the AI to recruit them: in older TW-modding, this often led to the AI only fielding low-tier units, even in late-game stages... Maybe moving the clan-specific samurai (for instance Chosokabe Bow) to one earlier research tier than the regular ones would be a nice first modification, and put some variation in the gameplay of the different clans! Maybe lowering all first samurai units, but playing with the recruitment time depending on the buiding tier would be a nice approach as well (see further)

On turn-numbers

As always with all vanilla TW-games, I have the feeling the campaign is too short to really use the full potential of diplomacy, inciting rebellions and other stuff the game has to offer. A Vanilla campaign quickly becomes too sheduled ("turn 50: You should be on x provinces by now"). I like to plot more, using bribery to start wars and supporting minor clans to keep my competitors off balance while I build my own power. Vanilla just doesn't give me the time.
Hope you will implement some increase in turns, but I know that leaves much to be changed, from building times and basic economy to tech tree balancing.

On experience/building tiers

I do agree with others experience should come with battle, not the training building. However, we need insentives to build the higher tiers and experience is probably the most important one in Vanilla. Lowering the kill-count for units to gain experience (especially the first few levels) in battle would be cool. That way, you really grow attached to units.
If possible, higher Dojo tiers could be used to increase other stats of the units instead of just giving a raw experience buff, and definitely can be used to reduce recruitement cost/time of the units. That way, your best provinces can really turn out good units at good rates, while less developed provinces take more time and Koku to do the same. It increases the challenge in the early game (long build times for your first samurai units), allows an increase in the overall level of armies as the game progresses and makes your core provinces really important and easier to defend (also for the AI). I would argument an increase in the cost to build higher tier buildings too (I should be an economically important choice to invest in recruiting capability), if I wasn't afraid of the AI no longer building them...

[Demokritos]

This new generation of TW realism mod looks very promising, as always. I'll test it for sure. Keep the good work up guys!

I do hope that you eventually incorporate realistic clan colors as well.

[Brips]

New animations?!


The units descriptions, units performances/stats, buildings and arts tree, etc are all graphically changed? because we need to know what's we recruit or build...


.................................................................................................

[Alan.rio]

Hey,
Excited as I am about this project, I couldn't help but write down some ideas. Not all of them are original or new; some of them have been mentioned several times here. But If put together, they may have some game-mechanic ideas buried inside them...

On the Samurai unit size

Increasing the samurai back at least a little and increasing the size of Ashiyaru units to the hardcore cap (?) may be the way to go.

...

Why don't you just increase the campaign multiplier in the preferences script to get the same effect? I have mine at 1.2 (I think) and it gives me samurai of 100 or so and yari of 300 men. Increasing unit sizes by default will mean people will have problems with performance.

[peank]

Really no offence, you are a nice guy, but i beg you to read the first post (it's there for information) - actually 97.5 % points you ask for are all adressed there
Afterwards if there are open questions, feel free to ask away.

And no, the speed reduction mod is on the compatibility list, and marked as must-have.

You're right, I'm a bit lacking on this thing, my apology. I actually didnt have the chance to play last night, but I'll give this a go in a new game tonight.

Also, none taken. I just want to show my support as this mod seems to be what I'm looking for.

[gord96]

On ronin

Even as they are a super addition, they overpower the early game at the moment: it's also strange a Daimyo has 4 ronin units early on, at a time when he is unable to train some of his own clan samurai.

i gotta disagree with that. it would make sense that a daimyo would have to hire ronin to fight for him before he had the capability to make his own. ronin are mercenaries. hired by people who don't have the means to create and arm their own samurai. being able to create ronin before your own samurai makes good sense.

[inquisitor]

I hope that the modmakers do something about those archer stack spam's.
Or can somebody tell me how to get rid of them in the files?

[Naga Prince]

Forgive me I have not tried the modification yet, but my opinion still holds merit since this is statistical logically.

I think three alternatives which would be far better than hard caps for Samurai units, which is fundamentally flawed because it does not adjust to the growth of an expanding clan as Belgae covered, is suggested below.

1. "Upkeep": Use the Bushido technology tree with its succeeding weapon-specific art branches to incrementally decrease the unit upkeep cost for all Samurai units that use that specific weapon. Spear's, Bow's and Katana's have three arts related to them, thus every succeeding level the upkeep will be reduced by 15% for all related Samurai.
Triple the upkeep cost for Samurai across the board, thus for example Katana Samurai are currently 150, they're now 450. Completing Sword Mastery will yield you Katana Samurai with an upkeep cost at 247.5 in the end.

This alternative is very positive because it creates more incentives to pursue the Bushido weapon branches whilst starting off all Samurai units at a tripled upkeep height making them to gradually become more common as your game progresses. In the beginning it will be extremely difficult to field even several Samurai units because their upkeep is three times its original value. 50+ turns into every game session, every clan will have at least one Bushido weapon branch completed and will thus allow them to field those specific Samurai in far greater numbers now their upkeep is half-way towards Ashigaru equivalents. I could see this route interestingly not easy to balance because as the game progresses, province economies will develop significantly whilst Samurai unit upkeeps are falling due to Bushido research, possibly causing to much of an early boom in Samurai units. Perhaps the greatest way to tune this suggestion is by reducing the Upkeep relieving from 15% to 10%, or even 5%. Every Bushido art could also invest by 8%, 8%, 9%, or 10%, 10%, 25%, cetera.

2. "Unit Cap": Use the Bushido technology tree with its succeeding weapon-specific art branches to incrementally increase the unit cap for all Samurai units that use that specific weapon. S2R's unit cap begins at 10, thus every weapon-art will incrementally increase by the unit cap by ten more to a total of 40 specific-weapon Samurai.

This approach is also great because the in-game justification is that research and development into certain Bushido arts allows every clan to further learn and implement specific Bushido arts on a larger scope, thus allowing them to field more Samurai practically and doctrinally.

Otherwise, if I am correct every clan will realistically have 120 Samurai, divided into 40 for each weapon type. This is the simplest approach to the fundamentally flawed hard cap for Samurai, since honestly "Unit Cap": only gives every Samurai type its own unit cap but instead that is increased by 100% for three times total.

3. "Province Castle Support": Every Province's castle and succeeding levels incrementally increases the unit cap for Samurai across the board. Every level now yields one slot for any Samurai unit.
Thus Fort's support one Samurai unit, Citadel's support a total of five Samurai units.
If you currently control three provinces, equaling two Fort's and one Stronghold, you'll be able to field a total of 4 Samurai units.

Fort: 1
Stronghold: 2
Fortress: 3
Castle: 4
Citadel: 5

Personally the Provincial Castle Support alternative appears to be the easiest, smooth and most logical suggestion for undertaking the flawed hard cap. While it stands to be the most difficult idea to balance because of long-term games possibly possessing majority Fortresses and Castle's, it's an old formula that previous Total War titles have implemented finely when it came to unique units tied to settlement centers.

Finally I want to state these three concepts could be combined in various ways. Although there's the chance for unnecessary and complex variables being mixed together, one combination I thought of that could very well make idea 3 easier to balance is this:

"3A. Provincial Specialty Building Upkeep":

This is an addition to the third concept borrowing from the first concept. Basically, all Samurai unit's upkeep is tripled being Katana Samurai from 150-to-450 as an example. Provincial specialty buildings only in that specific province associated with its Samurai weapon-type incrementally decreases their upkeep by 15%.

Thus as every campaign session progresses from the beginning to the ending, clans will gradually increase their Samurai unit cap whilst reducing the large upkeep associated with Samurai weapon-types through specialty buildings over time. For players this only expands the strategic depth of developing your provinces while the AI on increasing difficulties has the resources, money and recruitment slots to more than adequately deal with the heightened upkeep costs since they will not pick up upon this new change.

Archery Dojo: 15% for bow Samurai, cetera
Sword School: 15% for katana Samurai, cetera
Yari Drill Yard: 15% for spear Samurai, cetera

I hope one of these suggestions makes it into S2R as version 310's hard cap is in reality a short-term solution to an issue if at all currently beneficial to the modification. I am just an ordinary fan of Stainless Steel so I KNOW S2R in the coming weeks will be incredible. I can't wait for the possibility of there existing some super-realism version for Shogun 2 Total War.

[The King in the North]

Is it just for me the Yari ashigaru responds with the Yari Samurai... Voice when selected?

[SonOfCrusader76]

Are there any videos of the battles with this mod?

[Agostinos]

Are there any videos of the battles with this mod?

Wouldnt it be easier if you download the mod and try it yourself?

[Drtad]

Yeah I'm not the most technical guy but it's quite an easy install.

[Wismer]

I hope one of these suggestions makes it into S2R as version 310's hard cap is in reality a short-term solution to an issue if at all currently beneficial to the modification. I am just an ordinary fan of Stainless Steel so I KNOW S2R in the coming weeks will be incredible. I can't wait for the possibility of there existing some super-realism version for Shogun 2 Total War.

Don't get your hopes up. It sounds like CA is making the game much trickier to modify, unlike Medieval TW2.

So far, this mod is definitely in the right direction but I wonder how far the modders can go.

[Thorn]

Hey,
Excited as I am about this project, I couldn't help but write down some ideas. Not all of them are original or new; some of them have been mentioned several times here. But If put together, they may have some game-mechanic ideas buried inside them...

On the Samurai unit size

I totally get the idea of Samurai being an elite and rare force and having to trade off the addition of some small elite units against having sufficient numbers to plug the holes in your lines. Everybody playing TW-games likes big armies though; at least I know I do. It seems a little sad to have a 2011 game and reduce some unit numbers back to some 2004 engine capabilities, just to achieve an in-game atmosphere. Increasing the samurai back at least a little and increasing the size of Ashiyaru units to the hardcore cap (?) may be the way to go. Especially if you have research them to recruit them. Also, instead of a raw cap that may irk some players and skew your armies in late-game stages ("I can only recruit as many samurai with 15 provinces as I could with 5??"), a high upkeep cost may be the best idea: the player is free to use them as he pleases, if he has the economy to support them.

I agree with You about numbers, maybe making low Tier Samurai less lethal could help to increase their numbers, but morever about cap numbers.., I haven't tried to mod the game yet, so I can't be sure about using buildings as unit's cap so:

A Spear Dojo gives +1 to Yari Samurai cap
A Bow Dojo +1 to Bow Samurai
Etc..

This way having many provinces or well developed buildings will make a diference

[SonOfCrusader76]

Yeah I'm not the most technical guy but it's quite an easy install.

Fair enough - it's just dropping a file into the data folder. I thought it might be one of those mods that require a lot of fiddling.

[Agostinos]

I agree with You about numbers, maybe making low Tier Samurai less lethal could help to increase their numbers, but morever about cap numbers.., I haven't tried to mod the game yet, so I can't be sure about using buildings as unit's cap so:

A Spear Dojo gives +1 to Yari Samurai cap
A Bow Dojo +1 to Bow Samurai
Etc..

This way having many provinces or well developed buildings will make a diference

Forget this idea with increasing unit cap by techs. 100% not possible. I will check further feedback about unit cap but its very tricky to find the right cap

[Thorn]

Forget this idea with increasing unit cap by techs. 100% not possible. I will check further feedback about unit cap but its very tricky to find the right cap

Sorry.. maybe I'm wrong, but I said to use buildings (NOT techs) as unit's cap, that is not possible either?

[Agostinos]

Sorry.. maybe I'm wrong, but I said to use buildings (NOT techs) as unit's cap, that is not possible either?

Unfortunately its the same. The unit cap is determined by the file units_table. This cant be influenced by any techs buildings or anything else.

[Thorn]

Unfortunately its the same. The unit cap is determined by the file units_table. This cant be influenced by any techs buildings or anything else.

Right.. I just remember it from ETW.. I was confusing with garrion unit caps..

Then I think cost should be the way to avoid small clans having as much "elite" units as bigger ones..

[Agostinos]

Right.. I just remember it from ETW.. I was confusing with garrion unit caps..

Then I think cost should be the way to avoid small clans having as much "elite" units as bigger ones..

Its more about limiting samurais to the bigger clans. If there wouldnt be a cap you would see whole AI armies composed of Samurais flooding your borders. Anyway if you count it up you can still recruit really much Samurais. 10 Yari, 10 Naginata, 10 Archer, 10 Katana including cav this makes 70!! units of Samurais not counting the Ronins, Wakos and Monks. I dont see a problem with a cap of 10 at all. Actually I never was able to recruit this much Samurais in vanilla