Naginata Strategies

[Raimeken]

On my first blacksmith I tend to go for Armour anyway. In the long run the units you build there already have great melee, they just need to last longer to give you time to outflank and hold enemies.

Yes especially if Warrior Monks are your bread and butter.

[Gaizokubanou]

I think the 'old' sword vs spears issue might be at hand here. The game treats naginatas as spears, and I remember how befuddled people were in M2 when it was discovered that Peasants armed with knives beat Spear Militia. It turned out the game treated the Peasants as sword infantry and gave them a bonus against spears. The same could easily be true here.

Btw, one of the CA guys dropped by a few days ago in another discussion and confirmed that armour does add defensive ability in melee, and specifically mentioned that is why the armourer line only adds 3 armour while the weaponsmith line adds 4 meleeattack. Armour is just that much better than attack.

[EDIT] Found it.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...09#post9237609

This pretty much means armorsmith is always the better option.

[Khopesh]

Apologies for asking this because, as I have mentioned before, I am still waiting my copy of the game, and cannot perform such tests myself. If someone can do this it would be very much appreciated, if not, not to worry as I can have some fun testing it myself sometime next week.

While the flatland-charge test may be good for quick comparissons, how about performing a number of other tests. For exapmle, only one of the units charge, while the others defend. Or testing the difference of being attacked from the back, or with with active bonuses (naginatas charge bonus), etc.

While Katana Samurai may win in a perfectly even flatland-charge, Naginata may perform better when being flanked (due to better armour), and from the defensive postion (having "spear" type weapons for a defensive wall?). What happens if the Naginata's charge bonus is activated during the charge?

Nagainata warriors may turn out superior in a wider variety of tactics. So far only one tactic has been explored and that may turn out to be the only one Katana Samurai win at.
On top of the other uses for Nags (vs Cav/archers) - they could actually be the best all-round units in the game. Obviously other units still have their uses, like bow and cavalry, but if used in the right way, can nags replace the need to have Yari or Katana?!

On the topic of armour - I read somewhere that it effects the melee defence of a unit from the sides/back, while melee defence itself is only considered when the unit is attacked from the front. Not sure how true this is, but it would make sense.

[Eusebius86]

Apologies for asking this because, as I have mentioned before, I am still waiting my copy of the game, and cannot perform such tests myself. If someone can do this it would be very much appreciated, if not, not to worry as I can have some fun testing it myself sometime next week.

While the flatland-charge test may be good for quick comparissons, how about performing a number of other tests. For exapmle, only one of the units charge, while the others defend. Or testing the difference of being attacked from the back, or with with active bonuses (naginatas charge bonus), etc.

While Katana Samurai may win in a perfectly even flatland-charge, Naginata may perform better when being flanked (due to better armour), and from the defensive postion (having "spear" type weapons for a defensive wall?). What happens if the Naginata's charge bonus is activated during the charge?

Nagainata warriors may turn out superior in a wider variety of tactics. So far only one tactic has been explored and that may turn out to be the only one Katana Samurai win at.
On top of the other uses for Nags (vs Cav/archers) - they could actually be the best all-round units in the game. Obviously other units still have their uses, like bow and cavalry, but if used in the right way, can nags replace the need to have Yari or Katana?!

On the topic of armour - I read somewhere that it effects the melee defence of a unit from the sides/back, while melee defence itself is only considered when the unit is attacked from the front. Not sure how true this is, but it would make sense.

I've been doing several tests over the last 2 days with both katana and naginata samurai. My next test involves giving the units bonuses to either armor or weapons and see which is better. It's a long process, but basically, I'm taking the naginata and going 1 on 1 vs different units, charge and no charge, and seeing what works out the best. I'll do a post on Wednesday (my next off day of work) to let everyone know my results.

[Kraxis]

This pretty much means armorsmith is always the better option.

Essentially yes. For infantry and archers at least. It provides your line stayingpower, and thus time to perform your important flanking moves.
However, cavalry would much prefer a weaponbonus. They generally don't suffer many losses to ranged combat, and the attackbonus will help with the important charge. Bow Cav aren't meant to charge around that much, and as such fit better with other ranged units, getting armour.

[Gaizokubanou]

Essentially yes. For infantry and archers at least. It provides your line stayingpower, and thus time to perform your important flanking moves.
However, cavalry would much prefer a weaponbonus. They generally don't suffer many losses to ranged combat, and the attackbonus will help with the important charge. Bow Cav aren't meant to charge around that much, and as such fit better with other ranged units, getting armour.

True on cavalry, but I end up producing them where they get charge bonus as that is even more useful for the charge than weapon damage which I think kicks in once they enter melee combat after charge.

[Moody]

True on cavalry, but I end up producing them where they get charge bonus as that is even more useful for the charge than weapon damage which I think kicks in once they enter melee combat after charge.

I agree +Charge works great for cav since even Katana Cav suffers badly in prolonged melee - you get the biggest effect by charging - withdrawing and then charging again - better still Yari Cav receives the same bonus from the Spear Tech tree as Naginata (the key word I guess is spear armed troops which technically the Yari cav are)

Its one of the reasons I like Naginata Sam so much - their high armour means they are perfect anchors giving me plenty of time to micro manage my Takeda Cav

[Floppy]

I think the 'old' sword vs spears issue might be at hand here.

Well, I wouldnīt call it an issue. I puts units into their roles, aswell as giving the chance to let a unit perform truely awesome within itīs role without overperforming outside of it.
Peasants being sword infantry in M2TW is an issue though.

That said the maths are moot, because we know, after years of TW series, that the numbers considered in the formula do not include all deciding factors. Not even in a vacuum.

TW has bonuses, spear vs cav, sword vs spear, etc. Many of which are hidden. There are also various different attack speeds.
Does the formula consider that the katana samurai might have 1.5 times the attack speed of a naginata samurai (hypothetical example)?

What I am trying to say is that you cannot just compare the numbers in the stat lines in any TW game. Unless perhaps the moves and behaves totally equal (like regular katana samurai vs shimazu katana samurai). There are too many unknowns in there to do that.

[MisterV]

Just dropping in to say that even superior Naginata Samurai lose to their Katana counterparts. I just had a pretty nasty surprise when I attacked Kyoto - the enemy had tons of Katana samurai, and they literally annihilated my Naginatas. Mind you, mine were 4xp, +5 morale, +2 melee attack; their were default 2-xp dudes. My units weren't wiped out completely, but one had like 13 men left, another 40 (on Ultra size). Curiously enough, they performed worse than the No-dachi guys.

[Moody]

Just dropping in to say that even superior Naginata Samurai lose to their Katana counterparts. I just had a pretty nasty surprise when I attacked Kyoto - the enemy had tons of Katana samurai, and they literally annihilated my Naginatas. Mind you, mine were 4xp, +5 morale, +2 melee attack; their were default 2-xp dudes. My units weren't wiped out completely, but one had like 13 men left, another 40 (on Ultra size). Curiously enough, they performed worse than the No-dachi guys.

they would - Katanas nearly always beat Naginata troops in a equal fight - the key is yo use other troops to break up the Katana units - personally I charge their flank with Yari Cav

Naginata Infantry with +morale +armour will last longer against Katana infantry than any other spear armed unit but dont expect them to beat them on their own

[IGdood]

I use Naginata infantry as tanks, basically soaking up arrows and bullets and engaging enemy cavalry and enemy yari infantry. If I'm pitted up against katana I'll hold it off with a unit of naginata and either blast the rear of the enemy katanas with archers/matchlocks or order a cavalry charge.