Bow Warrior Monks + Inspire = Volleys of Death (Replays inside)

[Karingemori]

Hey!

I've played about 30-40 games in the MP so far, trying to find a balance between units (infantry, spear, archery etc). I'm always on the lookout for creative combinations and working stuff, and I think I've really found a hidden gem in the Bow Warrior Monks. They cost 1000 without any veteran status, are relatively few (75-ish) and generally need looking after. What you get in return however, is some of the best shooting in the game at increased range and accuracy, together with some sick reload speed.

It began a bit like this: My General is skilled in Leadership, with next to no fighting abilities. I figured that the General is too valuable to risk in a fight unless super necessary, and so I opted for a build that would boost the general efficiency of the army as a whole instead. This meant, however, that he always had to be behind the enemy lines, somewhat exposed to enemy fire. Sometimes people would fire bows at him with some Ashigaru unit or two, and I'd have to fall back and loosen the formation- which I could sort of afford with my increased Leadership Radius, but it was still not good. So I got to thinking:

What can I do to screw with the enemy General, who's going to be in the same position?

If there's something I love in this game, it is competent units- and monks in particular. I prefer a small, strong fighting force backed up by cheaper infantry to cover flanks and rear. I also love archery, but generally I feel that points spent on Ashigaru/Samurai bowmen could better be spent on Melee, since they can glose the gap effectively anyway.

So I began experimentating with a lone unit of Bow Warrior Monks. I placed them just behind my advancing troops, shielded from enemy units and cavalry. In the beginning I forgot to pay attention to them, but then one game I settled on making SURE they would get to fire their salvo at the enemy General while he marched up behind his army- inspiring the Bow Warrior Monks and activating Fire Arrows.

And my jaw dropped.

In 2-3 salvos, my Bow Warrior Monks had literally killed off 25 of the Generals bodyguard. In the 4th salvo, they were either dead or routing- and this was just as his army was marching towards mine, or charging towards it.

As if that wasn't enough, I comboed it with the -1 Rally moral retainer and the Warshout of the Warrior Monks with spears.

The result was a near instant route, with almost my entire army intact. I did this in other games, and it worked nearly flawlessly- sometimes the enemy player would reactly quickly enough to pull his General back, but that's when I do the combo of the Generals Rally and the Monks warshout for a morale shock that leads to an incredibly slippery slope.

___

I've not seen this tactic used by anyone else so far, and I don't know if it's truly so efficient as it has been so far. The Generals I've met have been of varying skill, but the sheer speed of the killing catches most people off-guard.

Don't take my word for it- I've attached 3 replays of games in which it is used.

Pay close attention to the enemy General once he gets closer to my army- they die very, very quickly.

(I'd also love feedback on my army and playstyle, changes in tactics or units The replays are far from flawless, I know, but they are absolutely worth a look anyhow).

Attachment 150416

3 Altogether, with HELOIC and Victory vs Archers being the most devastating ones.

[Musken]

well... this was fun to watch. Will be used.

[Nero Wulf]

Thanks for sharing. Thumbs up!

[Thefallenhun]

Lol, USE IT BEFORE PEOPLE DEVELOP A COUNTER

[YassirX]

Try Rifle-Monks with fire by rank and increased range, you want need any other unit afterwards. Its like 18th Century against 15th Century.

[VersionLangley]

Lol, USE IT BEFORE PEOPLE DEVELOP A COUNTER

or before it get patched out

I understand that gen are fair game in warfare, but having a unit dedicating to sniping him is just a little bit...

[bushranger]

Try Rifle-Monks with fire by rank and increased range, you want need any other unit afterwards. Its like 18th Century against 15th Century.

Yes i have taken out many a gen with those,although i'm starting to think it might be a exploit because you can shhot through a mass melee on even ground and hit the gen smack on with the increase range ability.

[Caesarian]

or before it get patched out

I understand that gen are fair game in warfare, but having a unit dedicating to sniping him is just a little bit...

Just a lil bit of amazing strategy and totally used in real warfare of the time... Oh and by the way, I HATE facing monks of any kind....

[VersionLangley]

Just a lil bit of amazing strategy and totally used in real warfare of the time... Oh and by the way, I HATE facing monks of any kind....

you just repeated what i said before the comma ^^;

...so, agreed, but it a desperation tactics for a win/quick win. You'll get bad rep for repeated use i'm sure. Or the amazing title of "hello-bye gen sniper"

[Caesarian]

In the games description of them when u unlock them it says they are supposed to be used to hit high value targets

[Karingemori]

Indeed, and they alone cost a 1000 points which is quite a lot for a single, small archery unit. I don't know about you VersionLangley, but I thought the goal of the game was to win it?

There are counters to this, among them:

1. Keep your general out of bows shot
2. Target the bow monks with archers of your own

The 2nd choice is the best one, since monks are FEW and EXPENSIVE.

Having a unit dedicated to sniping the General is bloody well a sign of good tactics and strategy, since the General is what keeps the enemy army together.

Just because you can't come to think of a counter to it doesn't mean it is OP by any means

[xccam]

Its not a problem of being overpowered, i just dont think its a neccessarily fair way to play.with the state of morale in this game do you actualy want to win because you got off a lucky snipe, or because you outmanouvered your opponent?

I know which one id rather the game was about.

[VersionLangley]

I indeed never said that yumi units are overpowered m8. Since despite their kill rates, they are very weak in other task. i.e. skirmishing, etc. Even yumi ashigaru are expensive.

It is gen sniping that is what i'm concerning with. Like Xccam said, it's the taking advantage of the overwhelming morale shock of gen death that will give you the bad rep. And quite frankly, yumi monk isn't [Edit...]

As in previous post, going for gen is fair game and you are welcome to think of way to do so. However, it take the fun out of the game for me if not for your fellow opponent
Very difficult to say "GG" to a guy who make a moving box of naginatas just to snipe the gen.

Then again...variety tactics are always welcome on the forum

[naro]

Honestly if i knew i'd be facing a warrior monk general sniper i'd get my rocket troops out and counter snipe their general... lazy i know but effective

[Meataus]

Nice replays! Personally I think if the enemy general is dumb enough to just stand there trying to inspire his troops, he deserves to get sniped.

You might want to give veteran bow ashiguru a try though. My level 5 ones have 45 reload and accurracy (vs 50 for a bow monk), range isn't quite as good, but price is much cheaper and you have a lot more arrows in the sky. They die quick in melee, but then again so do bow monks from my experience killing them.

I melted a general in two volleys with 5 units of vet (level 2-5) ashiguru bows today, they were a bit weakened though after routing 4 samurai archers in an archery duel, so maybe I could one shot a careless general if I'm lucky.

The defense against this is either not to move your general in range, or if you're comfortable with a bit of micro, run him back and forth - the arrows will all fall harmlessly away from him

[Asymmetric]

Nice replays!

I liked them as well.

The defense against this is either not to move your general in range, or if you're comfortable with a bit of micro, run him back and forth - the arrows will all fall harmlessly away from him

People need to give the game a couple of months before deciding what is and isn't "overpowered". Frankly I'm not at all convinced that general assassination is the be all and end all. It's currently working well because of several factors:

- Players failing to correctly micro there generals to reduce loses. Keeping out of range, constantly moving, following ridge contours to avoid cannon shots, sometimes the safest place for him can actually be an ongoing melee, etc.

- Taking armies that overly rely on there general, in effect poor leadership armies. Peasant heavy armies collapse when the general dies, non-peasant ones less so. More importantly non-peasant armies can engage against heavy firepower without the general and not break and then the general can come up when the enemy is engaged, which should help mitagating much of the risk.

- Many players not having access to much other than low funds/low ranked generals/non-veteran units at present. The final leadership skill unvisersally raises the armys morale regardless of where your general is. Likewise, a veteran hero unit can gain the morale boosting bubble in effect giving you a second mini-general. Not to mention veteran units generally have higher morale.

- You can make your general extremely tough with the combat tree + hitpoint retainers should you choose to.

- Marching up and throwing a lot of cheap counter archer fire back at there expensive small long range missle unit.

Now it may well turn out that the inspire trait is a little too good on missile units but lets give it a bit of time and lot's of play testing before jumping to any rash conclusions.

[Ragga]

True Asymmetric... it is too early (only a week out) before we can start calling things "over powered"... I have played my fair share of games, and have noticed many things that you stated.

for one... i have won several games that i should have lost simply because my opponet decided to use his General as an attacking unit (i focused all of my available men on him... and well, that's history). This simple fact of knowing when and when not to attack with the general... or where to place him in a battle (varies depending on your troop levels) is critical, however sorta not that difficult to understand.

i think many ppl still think they are playing the AI with MTW2 or ETW or NTW where they can do what ever they want cuz the AI was a joke... your play with real people now... who will exploit your idiotic mistakes; moving your general too close

[Karingemori]

Xccam & VersionLangley: I would be a terrible General indeed if I designed my armies with the intent to create actual weaknesses, and I'd be even worse if I didn't try to take the opportunity to kill off the enemy General when he's being careless with him.

What sort of ruleset are you trying to impose on me here? "It's only okay to kill the General if I don't feel bad about it"? Screw that! If you leave him vulnerable I'm going to pounce on that and win the battle in my favor.

Now, I can see that you're the perfect Shogun player HONOR above all! COWALDS SHOOTING THE GENELAL! THE DISGLACE!

But Karingemori will not leave the Empire of Japan in the hands of men so bound! SONNO JOI! REVER THE EMPEROR! EXPEL THE BARBARIAN!

Meataus: Usually people move him about and try to stay out of the way of archers, I know I try to. The Bow monks kill things so quickly though it can be hard to react in time, getting out of range and all- especielly when they have been inspired.

I wish I could use cheaper veteran units, but do you want to know a funny thing? Not in all my games have a single bow unit attained veteran status. Not ONCE. I don't know why this is, because my Monk unit has been the one to net the most kills and exp through a bunch of games, yet they refuse to level up. If I could level one up I'd do it in an instant, but... I don't know the secret behind it. Care to tell?

Asymmetric: Spot on! I disagree when you say that higher morale units can do without the General- they can, for a short while, but without his presence (and with the presence of an enemy General) they route quickly indeed. There's a lot of counters to this though! Fielding archers to take down the Bow Monks is probably the best and least complex idea too.

I'd seriously wait with calling anything OP. Game just got released, and there's rule of thumb you should follow if you want to improve:

Just because you can't beat something immediately, it doesn't mean it's OP

I used to lose to flanking cavalry when I began my games. Instead of blaming it on OP and taking no responsibility for it, I tried to counter it. What you see in those replays is partially the fruit of that- cheap Ashigarus to bring up the rear and flanks. No longer do I fear mass cavalry, because I found the way to beat it. Sometimes all you have to do is rethink your strategy and think "Lies the fault with me?" instead of "I AM THE BEST, AND THE ONLY REASON I LOST IS BECAUSE THAT IS OP".

[buttski]

I lol'd hard on that 'HELOIC VICTOLY'-named replay

[Karingemori]

I always say "SULLENDEL PEACEFURRY" when I go into each game